It's not that simple though. A relaxed hand collapses like just like kbks. It's precisely because I thought of letting go of as much tension as possible that I played very poorly for many years. You need to learn where the tension is required and where it is not. Some laignments are more easy than others, but no alignment can lead to a supportive bridge without muscular activity. Relaxing the wrong muscles is the single biggest problem. A strong bridge is an impossibility if you truly relax the lumbricals as much as possible. This was the whole source of my problems. It used to lead to a lot of tension in the forearms. It's all very to aim to relax but if you don't learn how to solidify the bridge, it's impossible to play a chord without the arm being force into stabilising tensions. The 'relax everything as much as possible' attitude could scarcely be further from the solution. It actually causes uncontrolled tensions, as stabilistation must occur somehow.

Only good muscular use permits muscular relaxation elsewhere. The more flaccid the hand, the more tense the arms have to be to compensate in the model of forces. If you perceive the bridge as being the product of relaxation, it shows that you have simply ingrained the procedures required. A truly relaxed bridge is simply not a bridge at all, when you apply a force to it. Tell someone who hasn't to relax EVERYTHING and they never learn those procedures. You can only aquire the answers by learning WHERE to use the muscles and for what purpose and seeking to relax those muscles that are not required for the purpose.

How about copying the example of an outright incompetent showing to do a relaxed drop (or rather 'strained, forcible thrust') of the wrist? I'll stick to the good and the great as an example, thankyou and advise my students to do the same.

As for the chord, if only the sound itself counts in performance, presumably it doesn't have any effect if you turn to the audience and grin as you play the very darkest chord of a tragic piece? And at least grinning while playing wouldn't affect the control of the sound throughout the piece...

Dear Mr Nyiregyhazi

I don't read most of your posts. They are too long, too full of repetition and useless blah blah blah, justified in your mind, I think, by your dislike of Mr Klutz. In the past you frequently used "four letter words", which gave me a distaste for your posts, despite the fact that I thought that you had, and have, a point of view rather well founded. Economy of expression has only positive results in an internet forum as on the piano, I think that you'll agree.

All of that being said, your video is great. Bravo! I very rarely follow the links on the forum, I am glad that I did this time. You made my day. Marvelous music, marvelous playing. Once again, Bravo!

Believe me, I'm not bothered about pointless personal battles for the sake of it. That's why I try to focus so much on the issues, rather than the man. I just find his ill-informed views most objectionable. I am not in the habit of being rudely critical of others' playing, but it is extremely pertinent to the credibility of the ill-informed and potentially very harmful suggestions that he makes so frequently. I would be horrified to think of anyone forcing their wrists about as per his 'relaxation' example. This would be more horrific to me than any four-letter word.

If I have a personal connection to this, it is simply the fact that believing this kind of irrational bilge is what held my own playing back for many years. I do not wish to see others being infected by such irrational claptrap, particularly when it does not even work for the man who preaches it.

Where did I say "relaxed"?

And NO, nothing should be tense. Arm should be free, arch of the hand should be strong. Strong not tense!!!!!

Also where did I say relaxed bridge?

If it's so irrational, how come it works for me?

Oh don't be so dreary, don't hide behind all of that hair and the beard. You have to graciously recognize the acclamations of the multitude. Go on, get up and take a bow!

Curious that Chopin used no arm weight and kept his elbows by his side..

...and yet...

lighter simple action maybe doesn't need arm weight?

the phrasing certainly changes if you abandon 'arm weight' playing.. because it's mostly fingers doing the playing.

I think he's shy.
It took a lot to have him even send us a link to his video. Now that he's unmasked I've been exploring his other videos and thoroughly enjoying them too. The dude has some skills!

"The louder it becomes the more you have to feel yourself let go of any tension."

How can a bridge support if you strive to make it free from any tension? It's not possible. Quite the contrary. The louder you play, the more the bridge will have to be reinforced to stop any collapse. I didn't say it doesn't work for you. The point is that if you don't specify WHERE to let go of tension and where you need it, you risk encouraging people to let go of the support that prevents the most crippling tensions arising out of physical necessity. It's important to be clear that a bridge is not created by letting go of as much tension as possible. It's created by feeling exactly how much is needed to support with comfort and ease. No more and no less. Nobody is advocating random seizures, but if you aim to relax all without realising where you simply cannot afford to (either conciously or probably subconcsciouly in many cases), it will not work.

The point is that you to have to make to clear that it's not just either tense (if that's is taken to mean 100% contraction, as I sense you are taking it) or relaxed. It's in a middle point. Relaxing only benefits if you started too tense, not if you didn't use the muscles enough to support. It's so important to be clear on this otherwise the advice can be really harmful to those with a flaccid arch who do not understand what muscles ought to be supporting. Relaxing offers no solution to that problem. For that matter, even those with a good arch may end up abandoning that shape if they are told to relax as much as possible and that muscular use is always wrong. If that's not made clear, people easily misunderstand the actual goal. As comfortable as possible and as relaxed as possible are not the same thing. Often you need to ADD a little muscular activity to find comfort.

+ 1

Yeah, sorry, thanks to all those who left positive comments! Much appreciated.

Cortot, Nyiregyhazi, and Pogorelich, all together on one thread. Not bad company!

There will be no 'holding' 'no tension' as long as you have no need to overcome the inertia of the keys (cars) but once you do...

And that's while playing 'very poorly for many years'. Imagine what a master he must be with the Fraser technique! (someone told me today Fraser's become a millionaire)

I wonder how many times I have to say that something needs to be strong in this case the arch. Without it everything will sound harsh that's no question. But to say you need to tense it up is not only wrong but harmful. Yea the louder it gets the more we tend to tense! And seize and whatnot. That's painful too! I'm only talking about the forearm when I say you need to be free. Strong fingers and bridge, the tips of each finger need to be made of steel pretty much.

I don't understand what's so wrong about that.

Did I mention I hate te word relax when it comes to piano playing?

There's plenty of misunderstanding going on here I think. As bpmusic seems to concur, the arch shape is the perfectly natural shape the hand takes. As soon as it meets any force you need to utilize muscles to keep that shape. Once the need for force is gone the shape will once again hold naturally. At no time does the shape change. I believe you, Angeline, want to keep applying muscle to the shape even when there's no force. Or have I got that wrong?

Applying muscle, what does that mean?

Not being sarcastic, English isn't my strong language.

If you don't add muscular contraction to preserve the 'shape' when the 'shape' comes against the inertia of the keys it will want to give way (collapse).

Yeah then

I'm saying only add the muscle force when the bridge/shape is in danger of collapsing (which is only for the millisecond of key depression).

That makes sense. I just don't like using the word tension

But N is saying add the muscle force permanently because he wants to rest the weight of the whole arm on it at all times.

Wouldnt that hurt?

Ask him. Eventually I think it will unless, like Fraser, you have the build of a bear.

Actually, in a large resonant hall, you can cause a chord/notes played w/o the damper pedal to crescendo slightly by depressing the damper pedal after playing it. Totally depends upon the acoustics, though.

However, as far as the piano's action is concerned, there is obviously nothing one can do to alter the sound of a note after it has been played.

This is a difficult subject to discuss over the internet.

I didn't say "tense up". A 'strong' arch is literally generated by controlled muscle tension, however you look at it. You said "The louder it becomes the more you have to feel yourself let go of any tension."? That means relax any muscle tension(whether you use the word relax or not)- hence weakening the arch, if taken literally.

I really don't wish to sound pedantic, but these are exactly the things that are so confusing to those who have not yet understood what is required. It's so important to be precise, rather than talk in generalisations and simplifications. I appreciate entirely that we are describing the same thing, but I think it's so important to be clear about what actually goes on in a strong arch coupled with a loose arm.

No and I'll thankyou not to put erroneous words into my mouth please. I believe the hand must be capable of supporting the whole weight of the arm. The reality is a balance between different muscles, none of which are overloaded.

So you claim that the flopping on your videos does not change the shape of your hand and that you maintain the shape upon key depression? Would you like to watch that Chopin prelude again and see what your hand actually does? Perhaps you're actually on the verge of learning something about how destructive your flopping ethos is?

Also, there most certainly IS a force post strike- unless you choose to hold your arm in place from at the shoulder instead of resting on the keys (and this also necessitates releasing every key from depression first- which you are perhaps going to do after that fraction of a second in a legato progression? I rather think not...). Why would you wish to place such a burden on the shoulder, rather than balance with the tiny force required to keep the hand in shape?