Okay, it's a sensational headline, but I thought that this is a great story about how choosing the right tech can avoid a problem, potentially.

I was looking at a Baldwin R from a "private seller." I showed up at the guy's house and started looking over the piano, and really liked it a lot. It sounded beautiful, it played nicely, and seemed to be very fairly priced.

The seller had been represented to me (by an agent of sorts) as "a singer who has owned and cared for this beautiful instrument," which meant to me just another private seller. The singer part was true: he sings in the opera (the chorus I presume). I have friends who do that, too, so it turned out that we knew people in common. This is where things started to turn strange.

When the seller realized the implications, he slowly began to reveal to me that he was somewhat more than a private seller. In fact, he spent most of his life working for piano dealers as a salesman. As I questioned him more closely, it became clear that he spends his retirement basically "flipping" pianos from his living room, for profit. This threw up a red flag for me, but I was still interested in the piano.

When we got to the discussion about having my tech inspect the piano, he said, "Of course. Who is your tech?" I told him I'd have Steve Brady come over to look at it.

At this point, it's hard to describe the change in demeanor of the seller. He visibly retreated. He stuttered. He looked around like he wanted to escape. It was the strangest reaction I could have imagined. Needless to say, the red flags in my mind turned in to big, bright, skyward flares. When I asked him what was up, he told me, "Oh, nothing," and then hemmed and hawed a bit before saying, "Well, Steve will find something wrong with this piano. That's just the way he is." My reply was something like, "That's the point of hiring him, right? So that I know what I'm getting."

Anyway, after that, I called and the seller didn't return my messages. Then, the "broker" contacted me and told me that the seller had sold the piano to someone else. I told the broker on no uncertain terms what my experience had been like, and she was actually very understanding, grateful for the feedback, and wonderful to deal with.

But that seller was a pip. And Steve Brady's name alone seemed to save me a lot of time, trouble, and money. Even the money to pay Steve Brady to inspect the piano!

good story. It's nice to have someone on 'your' side.

thanks for posting this interesting story! apparently this seller doesn't have thick enough skin to lie his way through!

Nothing makes us happier than when a client insists on sending in a great independant technician. This is especially to our advantage if the client is also considering pianos elsewhere.
If the tech is really excellent and independant, nothing but good can come of the visit. It helps us increase our reputation, and we always learn something. It also all but guarantees a sale for us.

There are two sides to this issue. Any of us in the sales end of the business can think of any number of cases where a client was close to purchasing a piano that they loved, only to have their excitement shattered over a piano tuner's "evaluation" of the piano. There are many tuners out there who, as a matter of principal, find "problems" with any piano they are asked to evaluate. I have spoken to clients who have asked about having a tuner come and "approve" (or not) a piano - to which I have simply said, "I can save you the time and expense. This tuner will advise against the piano." Who loses? Everyone - but most importantly, the customer.

What continually amazes me about this forum is that tuners are most often presented as objective. How would tuners feel, I wonder, if every client they tried to gain first wanted to speak with an "experienced salesperson" as to the tuner's abilities and qualifications? How would tuners feel, I wonder, if salespeople constantly advised their clients to NEVER pay the tuners their initial asking price for a tuning - and to always negotiate down?

I'm all for a client doing the appropriate amount of homework before the potential purchase of any significant item - and if that client is NOT a player, that homework should include having someone (known to and trusted by the client) who actually PLAYS the piano. But that due diligence should include much more than simply paying someone for an opinion, which - in many cases, is going to be biased.

Loved your story, Apple--- hilarious, and a good lesson to help prevent newbies from buying a pig-in-a-poke.

I am surprised at your answer, Bob, both for short-circuiting the evaluation process of your customers before it has a chance to happen (which is exactly what Apple's did), and also for saying that techs are biased in too many cases.

Certainly it could be true sometimes; certainly all evaluators may not be truly qualified to pronounce, and you probably know more techs than I do. Still, one can find those whose opinion is worth having.

Their job is to detect major deficiencies that are likely to make an instrument a bad candidate, not to tell the customer what to decide. No piano, new or old, is perfect, and not all problems of condition are deal-breakers.

What would you have them do?

X2

I agree whole heartedly. A lot of times techs align themselves with a certain dealer though. It is prevalent practice in the industry for stores to pay techs to send people in or recommend an instrument. This is politely referred to as a referral program.

So, when a customer tells me a tech is coming in, I always wonder who.

This is an excellent post.

Hi showpro,

Your story was quite interesting.

I think this “broker” “flipper” thing is very common in the piano business. The Atlanta Craigslist is saturated with used piano “dealers”, “brokers”, “flippers” who advertize as private seller’s day in and day out. Quite often they will say things in their ad like “moving, must sell”, or “downsizing, must sell”, or son or daughter no longer plays, must sell, or need to pay medical bills, must sell”. Sometimes they fight with each other on Craigslist and flag each others ads or slander each other openly. I have come to the conclusion that there is so much competition in the piano business that some piano “dealers”, “brokers”, “flippers” try every trick in the book to sell a piano.

This is why I had rather deal with a real, legitimate piano dealer, or either a real, legitimate private seller.

Maybe the really professional piano techs out there, like yours, help keep the playing field level.

Best of luck finding just the right piano!

Rick

Norbert

Clef, please re-read my post... I didn't short circuit the evaluation process at all. If anything, I added to it. My recommendation is that the process should include MORE than having a tuner's evaluation.

As far as my view that a great many piano technicians are biased - I'm surprised that YOU are surprised! Please understand that "bias" isn't necessarily bad - unless one is looking for objectivity.

I have a "bias" as it relates to the tone of a piano: I prefer mellow and warm. Many who I greatly respect prefer bold, bright, powerful. Neither one is better than the other - just different. If a client asks me what my opinion is as to tone - I'll tell them - but that reveals more about me, than it does about the piano they are considering.

In any event, it's an interesting topic...

thanks,

One more thing:

Bob's earlier post perhaps does not directyly apply to the situation described by O.P.

Steve Brady is a highly respected technician in Seattle - to judge "independence" from things however, is an entirely different question. [don't know in this case nor wish to..]

The other point is that one can occasionally buy an even better piano from a "flipper" than a regular store.

Misrepresentations of sorts are happening in many retail stores
and often to a much larger extent.

What I have found useful advice is to consider hiring a technician for inspection telling him/her upfront he won't be getting any further work or tuning out of it.

Amazing how many appointments are being cancelled right after....

In those case where trust is being established however, any work of job may very well go the tech in question in the end

Norbert

This is an interesting post for me as a dealer....
I've had some tuners/tech's call me and say they know of someone who may be interested in purchasing a piano and they want to know whats in it for them $$ (same for piano teachers actually). On the other hand, I have one local tuner that regularly mentions me (and others) to their clients who are looking for a piano however he will not except a dime from me.
I feel a tech does deserve something if they bring a customer in, simply because they have contributed to the selling process like any sales staff who receives commissions.

Ultimately I think it does rest on the integrity of the technician and their already mentioned 'objectivity'. Are they helping with meeting their clients needs, directing them towards one piano over another, or are they helping their own pocket book because of nice fat kickbacks their gonna receive.

Also a good post.

If a piano curb-er does not want a tech to check it out.
I would not buy it.

I've encountered quite a few of these situations over the years. More than one piano salesperson has taken to selling his/her "mother's" piano for her.

One salesman for a large Portland, Oregon store sold his "mother's" piano three or four times a year. He was the buyer for the store and when he came across what he considered to be a really good deal he would buy it for himself, move it to his basement--his poorly lit basement--and run a newspaper classified ad. Every so often a client of mine would call and ask if I would look at a piano he had for sale. I would simply suggest that they call the man back and ask if it would be all right if I were to come look at the piano. And, please, use my name. More often than not the man would find some reason--any reason--to keep me from looking at the piano. Over the years I managed to save my clients quite a lot of money by simply doing nothing.

ddf

In almost all areas I know there are conspiracies *for* and *against* certain businesses, *for* and *against* certain brands.

Add to it the all-too-common payola in this industry and you can end up quickly with a tremendous mess.

Besides that, almost everybody in this business has his/her own favourites among brands, including almost all technicians I happen to know.

The reason for this is very simple: what gives me most work [or allies..] isn't what I'm gonna fight in the market place.

That's why my recommendation would be this:

In several cases where somebody wishes to bring a tech, the seller should urge the buyer to also request that another tech would be hired for "second opinion"

Problem of course is that this is the fastest way ending up with 2 diametrically opposed opinions out there...

Norbert

Exact same situation in our city.
I often suggest to the buyer, tell the seller they would like me to inspect the piano. Suddenly the piano is sold or they don't get a response.

The other problem is that the *technical condition* of a piano is often only one side of the equation.

Recently someone I knew looked at a very cheap grand privately by well known name.

The piano was very well priced [actually 'cheap..] and fulfilled everything the buyer with her modest means could afford. [$ 5000]

The lady happened to be a trained pianist appreciating what the piano offered her in the condition it was in and the price point it was at. Later restoration of the piano was an option, but not really requred right at this point in time.

The piano which I happened to know myself, sounded wonderful and could easily have survived a few more years or even decades.

This lady next hired a well known tuner advising her with rather stern look that the piano would need at least "$20,000 work" - *his* work that is. And the piano needed it *now*

This story is about 2 years old and the lady still hasn't found a piano anywhere same quality or price range.

This clearly demonstrates how difficult and diverse each case can be. It's certainly not all black and white.

Norbert

Del, you should copyright your name and then liciense it's use!

The thing is Norbert, for every tragic story like yours, there are 100 about people who unknowingly spend $5000 or $10,000 or whatever on a piano that really does need $20,000 worth of work or more. If a good tech had been hired for those, the salesperson might not have been happy, but the client might have been spared.
Because anyone can call themselves a piano tech, there are certainly a lot of rogues out there. But the real pros are generally pretty helpful and useful.
This is a bit like warning people looking at used cars not to hire a mechanic.

You're right Keith, every story is different.

One thing I keep telling people is not to expect miracles in certain price ranges that are unrealistic.

Tuners, pianists, store owners, sellers and buyers all should work *together* - not *against* each other.

If someone is not looking 'realistically' within a given price range, it doen't take some wizkid to point that out.

Once $ 20,000 in repairs are added to a piano actually needing it, the buyer may as well start all over again looking at entirely different pianos.

As a matter of fact, businesses like yours offering both options, ususally are the best ones to ask in similiar situations.

Norbert

"Clef, please re-read my post... I didn't short circuit the evaluation process at all. If anything, I added to it. My recommendation is that the process should include MORE than having a tuner's evaluation.

As far as my view that a great many piano technicians are biased - I'm surprised that YOU are surprised!"

But I'm not, Bob; I can see your point. One would have to be blind to human nature--- and the problem of bias applies to lots of professions, not just piano techs. Doctors, lawyers, educators, clerics, partisans of various political views (to mention a few out of many).

I did understand you to say, "Don't bother to have the tech come, he will say No;" that's what I meant by short-circuiting the process. He might have said, "No big problems; it would be a fine instrument for your kid to learn on and a good one for home use."

Well, it's possible.

I didn't really mean to step into a war zone, and maybe I should have stayed out of it. When I think of a technical evaluation for condition, and market value appraisal, I don't think of a simple 'yes or no' verdict. The appraisal forms I found on one California dealer's website strike me as a more meaningful answer to the question. The link to one page appears below; there are several others that go with it.

http://www.pianofinders.com/buyers/pianoshowroom/Steinway262369app4.htm

I certainly agree that evaluation and appraisal should take a lot of factors into account. The customer is the ultimate arbiter here, and the one who will have to live with the decision. I think a wise shopper will take the help of the expert knowledge of experienced sales staff, technicians, books, reviews, as well as considering the subjective qualities of touch and tone, affordability, intended use, appearance... and in the end, it takes some luck, too.

It seems we're probably on the same side of this, more than not.

And I did like Apple's story. That 'flipper' was more than a little sketchy. Oh, for a picture of his face. I wonder if Apple could re-create it. But on a question of condition, I'd believe that someone like you was telling me the truth.


P.S.--- I thought my piano dealer dealt quite fairly with me, and recommended an RPT who has done a fine job with my piano. So, these things can work out.

Well, if Apple had been there, perhaps.

I can believe that some techs are shady, but Steve certainly is not in that category. I just bought a Yamaha G2 from a private seller, and Steve gave it the thumbs up, without any sort of hesitation. I found him to be very helpful.

So, yes, the lesson is: hire a tech, but hire a GOOD tech. (Steve is far more than a "tuner" (IMHO.)

OK, maybe I'm missing something here, so please educate me. If a piano salesperson who's a flipper finds a good deal on a piano and buys it for himself to flip, wouldn't they have done the same thing by hiring a tech to inspect that piano for them to make sure it's really a good deal by being in good condition at a low price? There's nothing wrong as long as they flip with integrity by making sure that the piano they're selling is in good condition and will pass a tech's inspection.

Or is the underlying assumption (but not made clear here) is that most flippers do so without integrity by buying bad pianos for cheap and misrepresenting the piano as being in good condition when they flip?

It may also be that some techs will always tell you the flaws so that can't later say, "WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL ME?!?!?!" My tech/rebuilder told me all kinds of potential stones in the road with restoring my piano, and only one of them actually became an issue (having to do more extensive damper work, ie replace the whole mechanism instead of just refelt and regulate it) and that was more a question of electing to do the whole job instead of just something that would be passable for right now.

I would sure hate to be the tech that tells someone "yeah, it's fine, go ahead and get it..." and then have to contend with all the flaws I didn't investigate and tell them up-front.

I think the OP's flipper was honest and told him that he buys/resells pianos. But if someone does this and represents the piano as "my mom's piano... or my piano but I need the money..." then there is dishonesty afoot anyway, so I think having a tech come check out the piano before you purchase it is still the best thing to do for your own interests.

Piano traders in disguise are unfortunately part of the piano industry. Even though everybody has the right to do business, I don't think people has the right to conduct business illegally. What I mean by illegally is operating without a business license, resale license and evading sales tax; which is also a responsability of the consumer even when buying from a private party.
If these sellers meet the business codes and guidelines in their city or area of operation, IMO they have all the right to do business.

OTH There are consumers who simply don't want to deal with an establishment thinking that buying a piano from "a private party" will represent a better value.

Certainly I’m biased but in my opinion buying a piano from a private party it is usually not a good deal for many reasons.
The average used piano in good condition usually sells for about 50% to 75% of the price of a similar new piano and considering that typically used pianos are 20 years old or more, I don’t equate this ratio to a good value. OTH once a piano is purchased usually is kept for at least 10 years or a lifetime.

I also find unfavorable expending thousands of dollars without any recourse. I always referred to pianos as living thing with many components made out of organic materials and tremendous amount of energy rushing throughout its structure, these factors makes the piano a very unpredictable instrument and even if a technician checks the piano; no technician will warranty the behavior of the instrument for as short as five years, nonetheless will cover repairs out of his pocket.
Therefore “caveat emptor” the piano is sold as is.

Piano technology is often ignored too. I believe that the average decent entry level piano of today’s market is perhaps a better musical instrument than a mid range piano from those made twenty years ago.

I truly believe that buying a used piano allows you to pay less money but it doesn’t really represents a good deal for the most part, especially after considering all factors given above.

The seller had no intention of telling me that he conducts business this way, until he realized that he'd be discovered anyway. I find that to be unethical. He would insist that he "just loves pianos" and buys them for himself and then changes his mind and resells them. But he admitted that he does that at a profit, so you can make up your own mind.

This is a common practice with used cars...sold by "curbside dealers".

If a person is flipping a car (sorry) or a piano, if they say so upfront, then fine, the consumer knows the ball game.

But to say anything else indicates that they are being deceptive.

If you choose to buy a piano from a deceptive person, and your tech says it is ok, and the price is better than from a dealer, then have at it.

Me, I'd walk away...there are lots of pianos for sale, many by reputable dealers. I avoid liars at every opportunity. If he/she is lying about the reasons for owning and selling, maybe there is some other issue that will loom later, and you are dealing with a deceptive person.

You really can't stereotype this scenario in that there is such a broad variable as for what and how that client/tuner-tech relationship originated. Maybe that tuner-tech has been tuning the client's Baldwin spinet for 10 years and is sincerely looking out for the client's best interest in that he would be the one to work on that new piano for years to come.

And then there is the complete stranger tuner-tech receiving that cold call to check out so and so piano for that prospective client. Thats when strange unethical things can happen.

It is actually a small world in each and every venue as for hiring a qualified complete stranger tuner-tech to assess a piano. In a retail setting it only takes one negative assessment by so and so tuner- tech to be blackballed from that establishment even if that assessment was done fairly in good faith.

So ...technically in the ethical pianoworld, if there is an afiliation with that competitive store or an ulterior motive for that inevitable "take out" than both parties have the perogative to state their case and request one find a more objective person in agreement for both parties.

All a tuner-tech has to do is cast doubt on the piano not literally rip it to shreads in his or her's assessment to niche a deal. In reality if one hired a tuner tech to assess so and so piano and the tech stated the piano is flawless and I give it a thumbs up,I would feel an incompetence level in that maybe the tech was not knowledgeable enough to know otherwise. Than there is one finding those flaws to verify one's competence level. In reality one can take out any piano whether a new Hamburg Steinway,Fazioli or ? no problem.

A third party restoration assessment is much more complex and difficult than so and so new piano for obvious reasons in that one is assessing the restoration level not just a factory build of so and so new piano. Most ethical rebuilders would not even assess another's rebuild in that they usually belong to the same peer group. It is a tuff situation at times in that who is best to assess the quality of a rebuild than another rebuilder.
In conclusion "nobody takes out our pianos or I'll have them killed.