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#1381586 - 02/23/10 11:14 PM Tango and Bossa Nova Rhythms
john f Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/27/09
Posts: 122
Loc: thailand
Hello. I am lost. Need Help and Instruction, suggestions. I can play standard 4/4, 3/4, etc with my left hand and read well. However, I am at a loss as how to play any Latin Rhythms. All suggestions would be greatly appreciated. John

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Piano & Music Accessories
#1381687 - 02/24/10 03:47 AM Re: Tango and Bossa Nova Rhythms [Re: john f]
tuner2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 125
John.......Since you can read music, a good start would be the works of the great Brazilian composers: Ernesto Nazareth and Antonio Carlos Jobim.

regards.
_________________________
Retired Concert Technician

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#1381987 - 02/24/10 02:22 PM Re: Tango and Bossa Nova Rhythms [Re: tuner2]
wavelength Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 340
Loc: Vermont, USA
Tango:
rh quarter notes
lh dotted quarter, eighth, quarter, quarter


bossa nova:
http://www.mediafire.com/?twmk3m3oz2q

The treble clef is just to illustrate the rhythm of the chords. The right hand should play a chord.

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#1382557 - 02/25/10 09:56 AM Re: Tango and Bossa Nova Rhythms [Re: wavelength]
Jazz+ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 838
Loc: Banned
Nice file wavelength, I would have shown the simpler example first though. And what's with the Steely Dan "Rikki Don't Loose That Number", "Song For My Father" bass line? Are you sure it's authentic for bossa?

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#1382627 - 02/25/10 11:32 AM Re: Tango and Bossa Nova Rhythms [Re: Jazz+]
wavelength Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 340
Loc: Vermont, USA
Originally Posted By: Jazz+
Nice file wavelength, I would have shown the simpler example first though. And what's with the Steely Dan "Rikki Don't Loose That Number", "Song For My Father" bass line? Are you sure it's authentic for bossa?


The "simplified" example isn't really authentic. If the two-measure rhythms are too difficult at first, it'll get you through a tune while giving the impression of the bossa nova. But you'd be hard pressed to find a Brazilian recording that uses that as the main rhythm.

The bass line is authentic- don't give Donald Fagan and Horace Silver TOO much credit wink. What is *not* authentic is to double the bass with the piano like both those guys do-- if playing with a bass player you shouldn't play the bass part. It can be simplified by just playing half notes.

Bossa Nova is, in essence, gentrified Samba-- there is no clear dividing line between the two styles. Bossa Nova is generally softer, has more sophisiticated harmony, and is usually played by small groups. The samba rhythms which are usually played by large numbers of drums are instead played by bass and guitar. The standard Bossa Nova bass rhythm is derived from the rhythm of the Surdo drums in samba.

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#1384535 - 02/28/10 04:08 AM Re: Tango and Bossa Nova Rhythms [Re: wavelength]
john f Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/27/09
Posts: 122
Loc: thailand
Thank you very much for the information. I have been searching on the internet and found that samba, bossa nova, and some tango rhythms are not that far apart. Do any of you have any more patterns to offer such as wavelength posted? Very easy to understand the way he put it. Again, thank all of you very much. John

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#1387514 - 03/03/10 05:44 PM Re: Tango and Bossa Nova Rhythms [Re: john f]
Elssa Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 1566
Loc: NY
Here's a site with some ideas:
http://www.bluesjazzpiano.com/bossa-nova-bass.html

I use several Latin patterns, but this one (listed by Wavelength here) the most often:

L.H.: dotted quarter, eighth, quarter, quarter

I think this can be referred to as Bossa Nova as well as Tango.

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#1388443 - 03/04/10 10:46 PM Re: Tango and Bossa Nova Rhythms [Re: Elssa]
Elssa Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 1566
Loc: NY
Just wanted to say thanks again John F for starting this interesting thread, and I would REALLY be interested in hearing others ideas and tips about playing Latin rhythms.

WAVE (Jobim)


Edited by Elssa (03/04/10 11:11 PM)

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#1388575 - 03/05/10 02:19 AM Re: Tango and Bossa Nova Rhythms [Re: Elssa]
Chris G Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/09
Posts: 737
Loc: Portland, Oregon
I've also started to work on playing some of the tangos of Ernesto Nazareth. Rhythmically his music is very challenging because in some of his pieces the left and right hand are both sycopated but in different ways, the tango rhythm is in the left hand while the right hand may be playing almost any rhythm.

I have been trying to listen to the rhythm of the left hand while thinking about the right hand, as if I was the soloist and the left hand was being played by someone else. I don't know if this is the best approach but it is an interesting mental exercise and is allowing the tango rythm to be quite audible beneath the melody line.

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#1388614 - 03/05/10 04:15 AM Re: Tango and Bossa Nova Rhythms [Re: Chris G]
tuner2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 125
As to a better understanding of Ernesto Nazareth's music....there are two exceptional CDs available on the Pro-Arte label by a gifted Brazilian pianist named: Arthur Moreira Lima.
The first one is: "Ernesto Nazareth: Brazilian Tangos and Waltzes" and the other is: "Ernesto Nazareth: Brazilian Dances". Not only will these recordings give you a much clearer understanding of how this wonderful music works, but they are simply a great listen.

Regards,
_________________________
Retired Concert Technician

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#1388810 - 03/05/10 10:33 AM Re: Tango and Bossa Nova Rhythms [Re: tuner2]
Chris G Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/09
Posts: 737
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Originally Posted By: tuner2
As to a better understanding of Ernesto Nazareth's music....there are two exceptional CDs available on the Pro-Arte label by a gifted Brazilian pianist named: Arthur Moreira Lima.
The first one is: "Ernesto Nazareth: Brazilian Tangos and Waltzes" and the other is: "Ernesto Nazareth: Brazilian Dances". Not only will these recordings give you a much clearer understanding of how this wonderful music works, but they are simply a great listen.

Regards,


I currently have four different Nazareth CDs, one each by Iara Behs, Marcelo Bratke, Antoine Zemor and Maria José Carrasqueira but I don't have the Lima recording, I will have to check it out.

When learning the songs I tend to alternate between playing while recording and listening to what I have played so I can see how well or otherwise the rhythms came out, which is not always as well as I had imagined while playing. I also like to listen to CDs by professionals after I have started to learn a piece so I can see how a really good performer who specializes in the work would play it. When I listen to the professional I can often hear rhythmic elements or phrasing that I totally missed because one hand was overpowering the other when I played it.

One thing that has not been mentioned yet is to use a metronome when practicing. Latin rhythms are very precise and you need to be able to make the beats even.

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#1388875 - 03/05/10 11:59 AM Re: Tango and Bossa Nova Rhythms [Re: Chris G]
al-mahed Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/09
Posts: 769
Loc: Rio de Janeiro
Ernesto Nazareth 212 scores (all the works):

http://www.ernestonazareth.com.br/

click on "Ver lista completa >>"

Some of them have a MIDI example (I didn't like the MIDI quality, BTW)

For a better playing:

http://pianosociety.com/cms/index.php?section=1019


Edited by al-mahed (03/05/10 12:00 PM)
_________________________
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#1389123 - 03/05/10 05:36 PM Re: Tango and Bossa Nova Rhythms [Re: al-mahed]
wavelength Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 340
Loc: Vermont, USA
Thanks for the recommendation and links to Ernesto Nazareth. The music is very enjoyable.

But from an ethnomusicological standpoint, I wouldn't consider it a good source for learning typical Tango vocabulary. There are two reasons for this. First, the tango is from Argentina, while Nazareth is from Brazil and even labels his tangos "Tango Brasileiro". Second, his compositions are tango filtered through the lens of a classical musician/composer, and they don't have the dance sensibility of tango. The performances on the pianosociety website also lack the almost violent passion that is, in a sense, the defining element of tango.

It is difficult to come up with a rhythmic pattern that reliably expresses the tango for solo piano. The one I gave above works, but I don't think you'll often hear the bass in tango actually playing that pattern. It is not "authentic". I don't know if there is actually a distinctive "tango rhythm". Usually I hear a fairly unsyncopated quarter-note pulse in the bass and/or chordal instruments.

1-2-3-1-2-3-1-2 (counting 8th notes) comes up a lot in one form or another. In my opinion, this is really the unifying element of Latin rhythm. Dotted quarter, dotted quarter, quarter. Sometimes it manifests as an accent on the "and" of two (counting quarter notes).


Elssa, I hope I don't sound like a know-it-all, but I wouldn't use that "dotted quarter, eighth, quarter, quarter" rhythm for Bossa Nova. It will get you through the song, but it's not common practice in Bossa Nova or Samba, and it doesn't really suggest the style. I don't think I've ever heard it on a recording.


Edited by wavelength (03/05/10 05:39 PM)

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#1389440 - 03/06/10 05:02 AM Re: Tango and Bossa Nova Rhythms [Re: wavelength]
tuner2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 125
Another highly recommended recorded source for tango would most definitely be the works of the great Astor Piazzolla....from ARGENTINA.
_________________________
Retired Concert Technician

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#1390870 - 03/08/10 12:00 AM Re: Tango and Bossa Nova Rhythms [Re: wavelength]
Elssa Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 1566
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: wavelength


Elssa, I hope I don't sound like a know-it-all, but I wouldn't use that "dotted quarter, eighth, quarter, quarter" rhythm for Bossa Nova. It will get you through the song, but it's not common practice in Bossa Nova or Samba, and it doesn't really suggest the style. I don't think I've ever heard it on a recording.


I often use the Bossa Nova pattern demonstrated in the first example here:

Bossa nova bass pattern with piano

http://www.bluesjazzpiano.com/bossa-nova-bass.html

Works for me. smile


Edited by Elssa (03/08/10 12:07 AM)

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#1391016 - 03/08/10 04:34 AM Re: Tango and Bossa Nova Rhythms [Re: Elssa]
john f Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/27/09
Posts: 122
Loc: thailand
Hi Elssa. I have been practicing this week with the pattern Wave sent and the one you mentioned above. Both seem to work well to get thru the song. Also the one my old teacher taught me. I dug it up out of my files. (what a mess my filing system is)LOL

My teacher in the Philippines where I first took up piano taught me to play a pattern that he said was for bossa nove. It is the same as the pattern you mentioned above except he played in R 5 5 5. He also used this pattern for many songs that were not Latin.

I also hope more people will come in with many more patterns while I practice with the above. Coordination of hands seems to be the biggest problem. I think I do it right. I just start like a snail and hope some day to run like a rabbit. John

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#1391297 - 03/08/10 12:53 PM Re: Tango and Bossa Nova Rhythms [Re: john f]
wavelength Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 340
Loc: Vermont, USA
I love this stuff. To me the most challenging and interesting Latin music is from Cuba. I am at this moment taking a break from writing horn charts for my Salsa band smile

There is a wealth of rhythmic magic in Rebeca Mauleon's book "The Salsa Guidebook", and also in her book "101 montunos". Master these rhythms, and you can master any rhythms.

If you want to look on the net for something, the piano part is called a "montuno" and the bass part is called a "tumbao", and it is generally taught to learn to play both parts at once on the piano.

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#1391875 - 03/09/10 03:20 AM Re: Tango and Bossa Nova Rhythms [Re: wavelength]
john f Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/27/09
Posts: 122
Loc: thailand
Thanks for the information Wave. I just downloaded Rebecca Mauleon's Book "Salsa Guidebook Para Piano & Ensemble". I also downloaded a smaller book "Volume 64 Salsa Latin Jazz".
These two could keep a person working for at least a lifetime. LOL. So far I have not been able to find the book, "101 Montunos".

On a fast trip thru the Salsa Guidebook Para Piano ... I noticed some of the same patterns that you, I and Ellsa (and others) have been talking about. Must be at least a few dozen more in there. John

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#1392196 - 03/09/10 01:31 PM Re: Tango and Bossa Nova Rhythms [Re: john f]
wavelength Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 340
Loc: Vermont, USA
Rebeca Mauleon is great! If you have the Salsa Guidebook, you can probably do without 101 Montunos. The basic piano parts are all in the Salsa Guidebook, but 101 Montunos focuses on the piano and has more variations and advanced techniques.

I also have "The Latin Real Book" written by her, but I have found it only minimally useful for solo piano over the years. It has bass lines, vocal melodies, horn arrangements, the whole thing-- almost too much information. I have used a few of the charts with bands, and "borrowed" plenty of ideas for my own arrangements.

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#1393262 - 03/10/10 10:12 PM Re: Tango and Bossa Nova Rhythms [Re: wavelength]
john f Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/27/09
Posts: 122
Loc: thailand
Wavelength. I was just looking thru my files and found a "Cuban Fake Book" with many "Bolero's" in it. Should I play a special left hand pattern for this type of music or will the patterns we have been discussing here work? John

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#1393612 - 03/11/10 11:54 AM Re: Tango and Bossa Nova Rhythms [Re: john f]
wavelength Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 340
Loc: Vermont, USA
John, I've never noticed a distinctive or particularly appealing (to me) rhythm for a bolero... but I haven't really studied it. Relying on my imperfect aural memory, I'm hearing the "tango" bass line in my head. I'd bet there's something in the Salsa Guidebook about it, though!

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#1395260 - 03/13/10 09:10 PM Re: Tango and Bossa Nova Rhythms [Re: john f]
Elssa Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 1566
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: john f


Bossa nova bass pattern with piano
http://www.bluesjazzpiano.com/bossa-nova-bass.html

Hi Elssa. My teacher in the Philippines where I first took up piano taught me to play a pattern that he said was for bossa nove. It is the same as the pattern you mentioned above except he played in R 5 5 5. He also used this pattern for many songs that were not Latin.

Yes, these dotted rhythms/patterns can be used for a variety of songs, not just Latin. I'm using that pattern here, bossa nova (I think). confused grin

Watch What Happens (Michel LeGrand)




I think the key is to syncopate it.


Edited by Elssa (03/14/10 12:07 AM)

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#1395408 - 03/14/10 08:14 AM Re: Tango and Bossa Nova Rhythms [Re: Elssa]
Larry Larson Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 992
Loc: Carmel, Indiana
OK, since I've got all you knowledgeable people here, could you help me out? I wrote this song that I'm calling a tango, but I'm sure if is a tango or something else, since I'm unfamiliar with this style of music. The part in questions starts after the intro, which is something else, also unknown to me! thanks...

http://www.box.net/shared/z7t486x2c4
_________________________
1995 Baldwin L grand
2001 Baldwin Hamilton upright
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www.larrylarsonpiano.com
YouTubeChannel www.youtube.com/LarryLarsonPiano

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#1395432 - 03/14/10 10:08 AM Re: Tango and Bossa Nova Rhythms [Re: Larry Larson]
Studio Joe Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/28/07
Posts: 1803
Loc: Decatur, Texas
The first 30sec. is blues. After that it could be tango, but I'm not sure.
_________________________
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