Last year there was a thread here about a Steinway model "C" being sold by a rebuilder/dealer. The OP wanted advice and I commented that I would not inspect another's work for the reason if I found something I did not like I may look bad.
Well 2 hours later the OP walked into my shop and asked if I would please inspect the piano. He and I had never met and he did not know I existed in the same town. The piano he was looking at was 5 hours away so I told him to hire a local to inspect it. I made a few calls and someone I respect told me the rebuilder does good work and there would be no reason to inspect it.

Well 4 months later the piano arrives and the OP asked me go over to check it out. He did not have it inspected and he should have. The piano was far from being playable and the job was not to today's industry standard.

He sent the piano to our shop and we spent way too much time on it. He was happy to have us make it right but through the whole thing I felt bad for him.

He loves the piano and he probably would love it more if it had the work done properly the first time.

Buyer beware if you don't have an inspection.

Hi Rod,



But this comes to the heart of the matter! What if, by chance, the buyer spoke to the same tech who you respect, or for that matter, to another tech, and was told the same thing you were told: "The rebuilder does good work and there would be no reason to inspect it."

How can you then say, "Buyer beware if you don't have an inspection"?

No offense intended, but from the perspective of a buyer, who exactly should be trusted (or distrusted) in this case? You, or the tech you respect, or the rebuilder, who, according to the tech you respect, does good work that requires no inspection - or all of you, or none?

I guess what I am saying is always have a used piano inspected no matter what someone says. I believe if the person I respected had inspected the piano he would have been disappointed and had a much different opinion.

The person I talked to was not a technician but in the piano industry.

Bob, I see a slight logic fault here.

It is different to ask a tuner to assess the price of a piano presented by a salesman versus ask a tuner to assess the playbility of a piano presented by a salesman. In the same way, it is different to ask a salesman to access the price of a piano presented by a tuner versus ask a saleman to access the playability of a piano presented by a tuner. (Sorry, that's a mouthful of sentense).

It is alright to ask a tuner to assess the playability (because that's the tuner's expertise). On the same token, I think it is alright to ask a salesman about the price if my tuner recommended me a piano (because that is the expertise of the salesman). It is even alright to ask an experienced salesman about the tuning price your tuner asked for. "That guy charges $200 to tune my piano, do you think his work worths it?" I think it is a fair question to ask because he is in the industry and know more than me.

Of course every opinion giver has his own perspective or agenda. If one is smart enough not to ask for a second opinion, he is usually smart enough to evaluate opinions. But if someone (being a sales or a tech) objects to my getting a second opinion, I smell something wrong.

This topic has morphed from a simple discussion of having a very competent technician examine a piano being sold by a flipper into a general discussion of having any piano being sold pretty much anywhere being examined by a technician prior to its sale. There is no one answer; there are as many answers as there are questions.

Most technicians are, I think, familiar with the old Steinway or Baldwin or Mason & Hamlin or whatever famous name brand you care to mention being sold by a dealer. The piano is 80 years old it has been refinished (more or less), it has been restrung (though the job is rather sloppy) and it has new hammers (though they are inappropriate to the piano). The asking price is about two-thirds to three-fourths (give or take) the price of a new piano of the same make. To the novice piano buyer this looks like a good deal. To the undiscerning ear and finger the piano sounds and plays reasonably well. It is being presented as a completely rebuilt instrument in like new condition.

And then the outside technician is called in. He/she finds that the pinblock was not replaced and the condition of the original pinblock is suspect; the bridges are beginning to crack and the superficial epoxy repair is not holding. The soundboard cracks have been repaired but the soundboard itself has collapsed and will never again sound all that great. The wippens are original, of an obsolete design and in need of either a complete rebuild or replacement. The damper back action is also of obsolete design and should have been replaced. Overall, that complete rebuild is not really all that complete.

Are all used and/or rebuilt pianos offered for sale by the piano store like this? Of course not. But enough are to warrant caution on the part of the unwary buyer. Just as there are enough pianos matching this description being offered for sale by “rebuilders” and “flippers” to warrant caution. In my opinion it is always wise to seek profession advice when considering the purchase of a product or service about which one knows little or nothing. Since most people considering the purchase of that first piano know little about the product I continue to advise the buyer to have the piano checked over by a qualified technician.

And it is here—at least in my opinion—that the trouble starts. If the technician is honest and unbiased he/she will outline the condition of the piano in clear and understandable terms to the client. In this case I would advise the buyer that to equal the description given by the seller the piano will need these materials and this work. It will cost $x,xxx to accomplish this work. It may well be that the piano in question will satisfy the needs of the potential buyer as it is. But that buyer needs to know, I think, that the piano’s condition is not exactly as represented. If was being presented as a used piano that has had these basic repairs made my report would actually be less critical. I am mostly concerned that the buyer be aware of how closely the instrument meets the claims being made for it.

This much is, I think, reasonable and proper. Beyond explaining the basic facts regarding the condition of the piano, however, and things start to get a bit fuzzy. Now the question of bias and prejudice rears its ugly head. Several have brought this up and it can, I think, be a legitimate complaint. It is always awkward for one rebuilder to evaluate another’s work. The fact that they may be friends and/or members of the same professional organization does not simplify matters. As well, an increasing number of rebuilding shops are now selling pianos of various types and quality levels. Usually these are from some of the smaller, or less well known, manufacturers but, nevertheless, it certainly draws into question the objectivity of any appraisal the technician might give when evaluating a piano at a dealership.

There is no easy solution. Not all stores are going to suddenly become honest and forthright overnight. Nor are all technicians going to become unbiased and lose all of their prejudices between now and next time they are asked to appraise a used or rebuilt piano for a client. Still, I think the novice buyer is better off getting their prospective purchase evaluated by a qualified technician.

Since I work in the industry and I also remanufacture pianos and offer these pianos for sale—along with a very small selection of new pianos—I no longer accept these assignments. While I believe I could remain reasonably objective I can certainly understand how a competitor—be it another technician or a dealer—might see things differently. Especially after I’ve pointed out that what is being presented as a “completely rebuilt” piano really should have had the pinblock replaced, the soundboard and bridges replaced and most of the action replaced in order to qualify as a completely rebuilt piano.

At the same time we allow—even encourage—potential buyers to have the technician of their choice come to look at any piano we offer for sale. If we know that this technician is also a competitive rebuilder and/or offers either used or new pianos for sale we will ask that the technician makes this clearly known to the customer in our presence. If the technician fails to do this we will point it out to the customer ourselves along with explaining how this might affect the technician’s evaluation of our pianos. Most people are, I hope, sophisticated enough to understand the biases and prejudices involved. If not…well…such is life.

ddf

Del,

I applaud your approach, excellent post.

I might add to the above--if a technician shows up to evaluate a piano I believe it is appropriate to ask if that technician has any kind of business relationship with a competitive dealer. If he/she does have this relationship it is something the buyer should know about.

ddf

Good stuff Del,

Bias of sorts can and sometimes *does* go past this.

In some places there are established "buddy systems" involving some tuners against others, sometimes extending to retail businesses as well.

I work with several PTGs in a number of different cities and can attest to very different situations in each place.

In fact, it sometimes seems that one group belongs to a "group of oinions bundled together", instead of being free and unencumbered, *independent* individuals.

In another case, we had a well known local tuner create a completely artificial issue with one of our new Estonia grands -something which was totally refuted by a number of others later.

For this reason, it is indeed very difficult to get objective and competent advice - something that can make the whole buying process for consumers sometimes unneccesarily difficult or drawn out.

"Buyers beware" - just don't forget to also include the occasional tuner....

Norbert

Del
Great posts-- This is another area where conflicts of interest are common and not well understood. Your approach shows much integrity.

Sophia

I think one reason which can lead to such a broad variable in assessment, especially in restoration, is because of the subjectivity of the trade in general and the acceptable or nonacceptable standards of the assessor. Some are still in the stoneage and than some propose a much higher level in today's elevated standards.
It really comes down to credibility and reputation of the assessor as tilting the scale as for who to believe.

It is actually not any different than this forum. The dealers including myself compete for credibility.

Like any trade ,the longer you do something, hopefully your standards get higher whereas you want the next piano to be better than your last, along with improving your efficiency level not compromising on that elevated quality.

In most scenarios, a tuner-tech in a particular venue already has a premonition as for the build quality of the firm. In the real world, if there be a conflict of interest,he will convey that in the initial conversation with the prospective client. He doesn't have to go look at the piano in that his assessment is already made prior. So...in that small tight knit community, most already know whether that restored piano will cut it or not .It doesn't matter if one has an ulterior motive.

There are political overtones within the piano trade whereas as Norbert stated,individuals will side with whoever. Probably not any different than any trade.

The piano industry is conservative on the whole and any innovative change is scrutinized as a threat to the norm as stoneage as it may be. It's tuff to teach an old dog new tricks,right!

My bellyman David in his own personal endeavours
(Rubenstein-371)was told making his harp from steel was insanity. Guess he proved them wrong!
Gene,my rebuilder's shop is definitely state of the art but to many is a threat from the normal standards of restoration .

Just conveying some disjunct thoughts Some relevant most not.