This has already been done - at Purgatory Creek. Rendering the same MIDI file for different piano samples DOES NOT work. You need to the play the various samples. Anyone who has worked with the same MIDI file, using various piano samples, will realize that velocity response and damper pedal response etc. will be different.

Why duplicate the problems presented by Purgatory Creek? A proper and valuable way to compare various piano samples would be to have the same person play the same piece on each, and record appropriately. Not so easy a task, but at least useful results would be produced.

(Even then, the same person, playing the same piece on various pianos, would likely have to manipulate at least some of the parameters).

If you want to compare piano samples, you need to PLAY them.

Lawrence

This isn't a blind test, but for me, both PianoTeq and the Grand sound very similar. When you consider how poorly some accoustics can sound, I don't think PianoTeq is doing too bad a job

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bo0O1pC6zDA&feature=related

That's before the more recent updates which at least to my ear improved the sound even further. Sure, it's not a perfect replica, but I don't think it's that bad either.

I said "disgusting" and I'll try to explain why although English is not my native language and I am not sure if my vocabulary is so rich to express exactly what I mean. The middles are most "disgusting" - The attack of the sound is relatively realistic but the rest sounds like a synthesized metallic sound which is extremely annoying and has nothing to do with a real piano sound. If woody is a description for the real piano sound, then this is at the other end - metallic, cold, digital, computerized, something like that. Also, the sound is like coming from within a barrel or container but that may be because of the reverb used. Furthermore (and despite it being modeled and thus using infinite levels between ppp and fff) to me it still sounds very monotonous, with no timbre change. And by the way the Gymnopedie is not the perfect piece for showing what a piano can do.

Just for example what I find woody, warm, singing, velvety at the ppp and yet with a powerful bite at the fff:

Expression

I am sorry for any imperfections in the playing but this is an improvisation made by me, so at least it's not copyrighted It's using Ivory - Concert Grand (Steinway)

If you would like to make a comparison with any other piano, here is the MIDI file:

Expression (MIDI)

When I try to open your expression midi file in Pianoteq, it says its an invalid file. But I can play it using Winamp. Very strange!

I have added some information in it and maybe it's not compatible. Now, the file has been re uploaded clean. You can try again.

Thanks for posting that Cybergene, very nice playing and Ivory sounds gorgeous!

Before I go any further I'd like to point out that I didn't start this thread to try and prove Pianoteq sounded better than anything else, I just found a sound I liked and wanted to share. I think most Pianoteq fans would admit that it doesn't sound quite as good as the best sampled pianos, it's strength is in the way it reacts to playing, it feels like a real instrument, it involves you. Plus I would say it sounds very good, not quite as good as Ivory maybe but still very nice.

Anyway I ran your midi through PTQ and while it's not quite as lush or woody as the Ivory recording I still think it sound gorgeous and not a million miles away from what you posted. I'm sure many of you will disagree but that's your priviledge.

Expression_PTQ_M3CloseMic

http://www.box.net/shared/n7noexo271

Using PQ Trial C3 Solo Recording Default Settings.

Great playing!

The second PQ Trial C3 sounds better to my ears, but still the Ivory version is way better, more naturally and just more like an authentic grand. I can't help, but there is still lots of room for improvement before I will buy a fully virtually modeled piano.

Always trades authenticity with responsiveness.

Thanks for the kind words regarding my playing! The second pianoteq recording indeed sounds good. If only it was not trial so that we can listen to all the notes I find certain aspects of pianoteq really nice for live playing, the interaction is very realistic but unfortunately the sound is still lagging much behind sample libraries. I hope in few years they will manage to catch up. But until then the only choice for me at least for recordings will be Ivory. And there will be new version soon with half pedaling and string resonance so hopefully it will get even better.

CruelStrings,

Here are the demos of CyberGene's MIDI file using Galaxy's Vintage D. Very nice playing, by the way. It was fun to do a couple of different presets so here they are.

This one is completely dry with all features turned off:
http://www.box.net/shared/z2s07opl8v

This one is the default preset when you first load the piano in the Kontakt player or hit "Reset".
It has just the "Release Samples" and "Overtones" turned on:
http://www.box.net/shared/yst5vnge09

This one is the "Concert Grand" preset:
http://www.box.net/shared/ncx1dnzf8m

And finally, the "Jazz In Da Club" preset:
http://www.box.net/shared/eg6n6g3h8i

Wow, Galaxy sounds really good indeed! It is however using slightly different velocity map and some of the pp tones became ppp but I'm sure that would never happen if I have played the piece using Galaxy. By the way, I have recorded this piece while listening to the main piano sound of my RD-700SX.

I can understand that some people might want less stretch in the tuning or a different listener perspective, or a model based on a different piano, but these things can be changed in the program. This new Ivory piano does sound very good, but I worry that people who just disregard PianoTeq haven't heard it much.

I hope that the people who don't like the sound of PianoTeq will take some time to write critiques on the PianoTeq forum. The developers are very serious in wanting to create a piano, and will listen to comments about specific aspects of the sound. If there's something that you like about Ivory, but don't find in PianoTeq, then log in and talk about it. Helps, of course, if you are very specific about the sound qualities.

In any case, here are some examples that may not convince anyone that PianoTeq is a gift from heaven, but may reveal what can be done:

A slightly distant perspective:

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.php?file=Nocturne%20Close%20mic%20CP33%20settings.mp3

A closer perspective:

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.php?file=M3%20Changed%20partial%20matching%20Jazz%20Preset.mp3

An entirely different, lively video take, with not-wonderful recording quality, done on the spur of the moment, apparently with a mic near monitors using version 3.0 from last year.:

http://www.youtube.com/user/MusicMarketingTV#p/c/DB3A2AFFF7939207

One thing to be careful about in PianoTeq: there is a setting for mics and a setting for headphones. Often, if you use headphones to listen to a recording intended for monitors, the sound will come out wrong. It needs to develop in the air.

Cheers.

Jake, the second piece is called "Nice Work If You Can Get It" and is played by Dave Grusin in his album "Gershwin Connection" from 1991. I cannot send it to you, since it is a copyrighted, but I hope you can find it somewhere or even buy that album (one of my favorite, definitely wort it!) and you can compare directly with the original recording. (I suppose the original instrument is Yamaha, since GRP records are often credited as using Yamaha grand piano but I can check that tonight at home from liner notes).

Pianoteq is very thin and lacking any thickness compared to the real recording! But do the judgment by yourself.

Well, I don't have the recording, but I'll look around. Thin, how? Too much treble? Too little room? One thing we might try, and I'm very serious, here, is recording a few notes and chords that sound good to you on a real piano or using another piano emulation. I could then try to recreate the sound in PianoTeq. (It would require time and energy, but more on my side, yes?) I'm not speaking of an entire song or a dense cluster of notes. I would need to be able to analyze the freqs, etc, so if you created a simple chord sequence of, say vi-ii-V-I, you would also record each note separately. I'm not saying that I can without question recreate the sound, but it could be a valuable experiment. I'd like to see, actually.

One thing that I notice about the Galaxy demos is that they seem to use the soft pedal a lot with close mics. It's odd really--PianoTeq has a soft pedal, and you can control the sound a lot, but I don't think anyone has explored it much. I do like most of the Galaxy sound. Not the bass, however.

It's a little unfair to compare pianoteq to a commercial CD because almost certainly the CD has EQ, reverb and maybe compression applied and was mastered for playback on stereo equipment. The pianoteq recording is almost certainly just the raw track.

Well, Pianoteq has reverb and EQ, as well as compression (dynamic range). Supposedly, with the proper tweaking, you might be able to bypass those factors and leave it to the underlying sound engine when comparing to commercial CD recording or sampled library.

Oh, the new Galaxy has lots and lots of reverb on it. I would use an external reverb on Pianoteq if I wanted to emulate that sound. It does sound good, though.

Jake Jackson, I really love the second piece, very bright in the highs! Still the mids and especially lows are somehow missing the same reality, but the highs are excellent! I could never get such a good sound out of pianoteq.

Well it seems that there is enough tweaking possibility to get at least a decent sound out of pianoteq, and I know it's strength is in great playability!

Thanks for showing us these examples!

Another version to be identified:

http://www.box.net/files#/files/0/item/f_403865170

Comments welcome.

Glenn

Glenn your link is taking me to my box.net page for some reason!

I just set up a box.net account last night, and I'm not sure I have figured out how to link to it.

Glenn

Is this better?

http://www.box.net/shared/lvi4qoec75

Yup, that's better!

That definitely sounds modeled to my ears. Has that metallic rining sound to it. Like someone playing piano in a submarine lol