Ok...... This is getting funny. Um let's take the rach second sonata as an example. The opening, what would you do after playing the lower b flat octave in the left hand? Or the two chords that follow in your right hand?

Or a better example, the 'recap': how would you play all those ascending and descending chords?

'simply not true'? No wonder you had problems.

Ps and of course you need muscles to be active when you play. You need muscles to be active when you pick up a coffee cup too... What kind of activity doesn't require muscles to be active?!

Reading this thread?

Read a physics textbook, if you don't believe me. I certainly would not play those chords by collapsing my palm into the keyboard. That means I have to use the muscles. The more I strive to relax everything without aim, the more my hand would collapse into the keys and hit clusters. You may not perceive it that way, but that is easily verifiable as fact.

Funnily enough, all the upper body tensions evaporated when I started to USE the muscles in my hand MORE. Years of trying to relax more had done nothing. If an equation of forces does not balance, muscles MUST tense up whether you want them to or not.

Sorry, but it's not so so simple as thinking that all problems are solved by striving to relax more.

Quite, so can you explain how a muscle can simultaneously be activated into a loud chord and simultaneously be freeing itself from as much tension as possible? Please think about the rational actualities, not your subjective impression of the experience.

Subjective impressions only work for those with specific problems. If you looka thte whole, you can solve problems from either side of the equation.

You don't really seem to be paying attention to what I've said a thousand times:

the palm must not collapse. I am talking about tension from the forearm. Can you explain to me how you would get through a piece with a tensed up forearm? That's what I feel you're trying to say. You need to let go of some tension when you play loud.. It's called release. Without it you'd be a cripple.

Also sound doesn't come from the arm alone, it has to be connected to your back. Unfortunately they don't teach this a lot especially in Europe (I'm from there so I can say that).

You cannot play wihout releasing. That's like stopping your breath for 20 minutes or however long a piece is...!

Sorry, but you didn't specify the forearm and only the forearm. I don't wish to be pedantic. It's just vital to be clear what you mean on this. Those who keep saying less tension never specified that this does not apply to the hand, hence my problems. The shoulders also use muscular action to play a chord. They don't let go of "as much tension as possible" either. They push the keys and then release. You're only looking at half of the picture.

Also, the back can only support, so far as I can see. To do so, the last thing it can do is relax. It needs to employ muscular activity (which is tension) to do so. Let of of that tension and slouch at your peril. Instant weakness of tone is guaranteed. Why are you only to talk about generally letting go of things, when the muscular activity is so important? Letting go of the wrong things leads to disaster.

Sorry, but I'm just telling you that your explanation is enormously simplified compared to the reality. I'm not saying that this false impression doesn't work for some, but when muscles are underinvolved, your description would take you even further away. It's not as simple as you make it sound.

I replaced the non-working embedded vid with a regular YouTube link.

0:13 Anti-flop (i.e. hand raises)
0:18 Anti-flop
0:22 Neutral (if a flop, imperceptible to me)
0:26 Pronounced flop
0:30 Neutral
0:35 Neutral
0:39 Neutral
0:43 Neutral
0:48 Anti-flop
0:52 Neutral
0:56 Neutral
1:00 Pronounced flop

That's a summary of the visible sustained chords played in the first minute.

You found an acclaimed concert pianist who sometimes flops, but she seems to anti-flop just as often. As an example of minimizing tension by not maintaining an arch when unnecessary, it's surely a non-example. A true drop-and-flopper (or should that be dropper-and-flopper?) would have no reason not to drop all 12 times, yes?

But I've specified that in earlier posts... You're trying to accuse me of not knowing basic things.. I'm not 8 years old =) I think I have an idea of sound, whether it's 'clear' on a forum. I think I've explained myself clearly enough to make my point.

You and I had opposite problems but you have to admit yours is much more uncommon. Most pianists tend to be tense as opposed to too relaxed.

I like comparing piano playing to playing tennis. They don't hit the ball with a tensed up arm or the ball won't go very far... They have a good grip and a free forearm. Same principle .. Baseball, golf.. Etc.

I'm not a scientist, but I'm a pianist.. More or less.

Ugh, I can hardly watch it! Her shoulders are so tensed up, and that 'thing' she is wearing (looks like a dressing gown!) is regrettable to say the least. Very nice to listen to though.

No, you're totally misunderstanding me. I'm not accusing your of anything. I'm just telling you that it's not as simple as you say and that what is working for you is not an accurate depiction of what occurs. If you only focus on letting go of tensions, it only looks at one side of the picture. The scientifically provable reality is that sound occurs through a combination of gravity and muscle activty. Muscle activity is tension, hence if you seek to blindly remove as much tension as you can without being specfic about WHERE, you risk compromising the whole thing. Is that so hard to believe?

As I already stated, I learned to relax the worst tensions by using muscles in my hand more. I'm not saying that the fact that I required such a different solution means your approach did not work for you. I have never said so. I am simply trying to illustrate to you that it's simply not as easy as looking to let go of tensions and things necessarily working. What works for you will logically fail anyone who needs MORE muscular activation (in the right places- this has nothing to do with random seizures) to progress. Can you not see the obvious rational sense behind that?

PS. I don't believe that my (fortunatley now largely former)problem is uncommon at all. I believe that an awful lot of people who havge this problem never flourish as a result of being told so frequently that they just need to stop tensing up and relax more. Such oversimplified words do not serve them and often make things worse. I believe that this is actually exceedingly common today. I always knew how to relax. What I didn't know was which muscular activities were needed to make adequate relaxation of the upper body POSSIBLE to achieve, as part of balanced forces.

I never said relax more, in fact I've said I hate using the word relax precisely for the reasons you said.

I am aware that muscle is involved in playing and again all I'm saying is that it needs release as well. You can't push and push and expect to produce a decent sound.

It's not simple but it's not that hard to understand either. If it took me a month to fix 6 years of bad habits, it can't be that complicated. I couldn't even play through Chopin etude 10/1 without pain and after releasing tension now I can play through rach second sonta twice in a row without wanting to die.

I worked on this with someone who studied with Claude frank and coached with schnabel. I'm guessing he took it away from Claude frank. All he said to me was what I'm saying to you. Without complications. What do you know, it worked. It also seems to work with all my students..

I see your point, certainly. However, to encourage general release of as much tension as possible is not much different. Release as much tension as possible and you relax, by very definition. As for needing to let go of more in loud playing, it's definably true that MORE muscular activity is need. That is tension. It's just all the more important not to employ it in the wrong places.

I recall that you said that resting the whole weight of the arm on the hand would be tiring? How do you propose to prevent this when seeking to remove all of the tensions in the muscles? I'm sorry if you read this an attack on you, but I'm just trying to make you see that there are two sides to this (neither of which conflicts remotely with the other, if you take a sensible view of the whole). Sometimes telling people to release more tension really does take them further from the right balance. As above- let go of all tension in the upper body all the time, and you burden the hand. You seem to want to polarise it as if the alternative to seeking to release all tensions is to seize up. It isn't. Nobody is arguing in favour of that. The alternative is to understand the correct amount. I don't see why you regard this slightly more specific explanation of the whole in a negative light.


PS. Where did I say push and push? I didn't. However it is definable that the push produces the sound, not the release. To only concetrate on the release is to ignore half of the picture. Indeed, the better the use of the muscles, the less you need to release yourself from.

I'm not.. But you seem to be very against the whole idea of letting go and releasing in order to achieve a pain free good sound.

I understand you want to say which specific muscles you gave to use so go ahead. I have nothing against that! As long as you realize you have to release as well,.

I think it's very difficult for everyone to get what everyone else means without being there in person to see it. Even videos can only do so much because you can't really hear the whole sound or see the movement in 3D. Maybe that's why your students understand you must better, Angelina. But hey, that's why we pay to have a teacher.

Of course I release- where desirable! That's why I say I'm trying to look at both sides. I'm not against the idea of letting go in the slightest. I'm against the idea of saying 'let go of as much as you can' without purpose and ignoring the places where it's rationally implausible to be both letting go and using activity simultaneously. If you actually let go (even post strike), your arm falls to your side. You can't magically remove all tensions and stay in place. You can simply redistribute them. That's why it's as useful to perceive the activities EQUALLY to the releases rather than stick to only one half. There's simply no reason to present a one-sided equation. The more I've changed my playing in the last year especially, the more I've realised that the more I seek to understand what the muscles are actively doing, the more I can also perceive what various releases are desirable and possible. Just to stress I was too tense. But, striving to release myself from tension in general (without exploring what muscles are actually required to do) never got me anywhere closer to a solution. Realising that I needed to utilise certain muscles MORE permitted the rest to relax. It's always a two-sided process. That's all I'm saying here.

Ok I see your point, we just come from different places I think. You struggled with not being grounded enough and I struggled with too much tension.

Plus there isn't just one correct way of playing the piano. Everyone has made valid points.

You left out the invisible flops (which make up the majority) where there is no discernable movement. I doubt you have the expertise to spot them. Again I refer you to the Matthay. I'd owned and read all his books for years. It wasn't until I studied with a pupil of his that they made any sense though - and then it took five years to put it into practice.

And that is the big difference when you no longer hold unnecessary tension. You don't tire.

Now I am thoroughly confused. If the flops are invisible how do we know they are there? Is it like faith, the evidence of things not seen?

Read Andromatique's last post: http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...tml#Post1395425
and you'll realize how many gradations of rest there are. It takes a specialist to see when a hand is rested and has minimal residual tension. Check out the Matthay book. http://www.archive.org/details/visibleandinvisi009582mbp The article from The Music Teacher on page 149 is a good start.

I am with you on this one Jazzyprof!
This thread does not seem to be going anywhere at the moment.

I think that the Alan Fraser technique has a lot to offer. I am all for it. However, I think that different people can use different techniques that get them to different places......

I must say that I was very very impressed by the Video that N posted. Beautiful.

M

+1

Such as when a hand forms a comfortable arch, perhaps, rather than collapse into a heap? So why do most of your arguments involve such naive polarisation towards the idea that any tension in the hand must be bad (contrary to the obvious fact that gravity can only be supported by muscle tension). Rote learning from other texts is an absolute waste of time unless you stop to think about the whole for yourself. It might stop you contradicting yourself like such a complete ignoramus. And perhaps more importantly, you also could start improving your skills at the piano instead of putting yourself in metaphorical chains.

Again I refer you to the Emperor's New Clothes. Ludicrous as your arrogant pomposity is, when coupled with such utter ignorance and inability I am finding it harder and harder to laugh. Presumably your own expertise (and your claim to have managed to put anything productive into practice) is simply invisible too?

Let's get this straight- the best you can find is one pianist who DOES use the arch that you claim is unnecessary. And whose flop and drop is primarily invisible. And who has appallingly tense shoulders? Now where are the "relaxed" pianists with collapsing hands like yours?

Even with the debating skills of OJ Simpson's lawyers, you'd struggle to win this one. Even if you could, the moment you go back to a piano, you will continue to lose. For God's sake open your mind, if you have even an ounce of sincerity about music.

Remember, I was too tense as well though! Getting the right muscles into use was what cured that. Even if we could theoretically train every muscle to release entirely at will, if we employed an inefficient balance by underusing some, it would still make various other muscles perform an uncomfortable workload. That's why no amount of intent to relax more could offer improvement. While some tensions serve no purpose and must hence be eliminated, balance and movement is caused mostly by the activations of muscle. Whatever creates that balance is what allows the worst tensions to go. Some tensions just cannot be solved by releasing other tensions, but only by finding more efficient combinations of activity.

How about referring to it as letting go of any traces of discomfort, rather than tension? My only quibble would be that letting go of as much tension as possible taken literally could mean letting go of positive uses of the muscles as well negative ones. However, think merely in terms of the subjective idea of ease and comfort and there's far less risk of accidentally relaxing the wrong things more in the process.

Again avideo :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-S1MhgOxQ28&feature=channel

Gilels, playing Scriabin Etude n1 . All the above is there : when he uses smooth moves of the wrist it is to have the utmost control on a soft aerial tone, for all the repeated chords the writs have little minimal moves, the hand saty in an alert posture, without unnecessary tension.

The body come nearer when more pressure is wanted, and back when playing more softly.
The arch of the left hand is maintained when playing, and at rest naturally when unnecessary.

Relaxing posture may be the rule as long as no energy is needed, but not while playing.

The left elbow move at the beginning is extra, (given free for the same price) But how do you want to dance when playing the piano, the moves are of course limited !

Not to play the role of protagonist, but, since you claim there are invisible flops present, I wonder, if you could point them out, for those of us not expert enough to discern them with the naked eye. Is there a method to spotting them that works with every pianist, or does it vary?

I had to download the entire 54.4 meg of N's video to watch it and I must say I'm impressed. Quite what on technique it illustrates, outside of what a loose wrist can do, is beyond me. I doubt Fraser could have achieved that (I've spoken to his recording engineer). Of course none of this is any excuse for rudeness.