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#1395798 - 03/14/10 08:30 PM Measure by measure difficult breakdown of Chopin Op.10 no.1
xtraheat 500 Post Club Member Registered: 09/20/07 Posts: 625 Loc: WV	I'm doing this just because I thought it would be kind of interesting to see a "map" of the difficulty of the sections of this piece. If anyone would like to agree or disagree, go ahead. Obviously, the difficulty of each measure is relative to the rest of the piece. 1: Easy 2: Easy 3: Easy 4: Hard (that D is really hard at full tempo) 5: Easy 6: Easy 7: Easy 8: Easy 9: Easy 10: Easy 11: Easy 12: Easy 13: Hard 14: Easy 15: Medium 16: Easy 17: Easy 18: Easy 19: Easy 20: Easy 21: Easy 22: Very hard 23: Medium 24: Easy 25: Easy 26: Hard 27: Easy 28: Easy 29: Easy 30: Very hard 31: Very hard 32: Very hard 33: Medium 34: Hard 35: Hard 36: Hard 37: Easy 38: Medium 39: Easy 40: Medium 41: Easy 42: Medium 43: Medium 44: Medium 45: Easy 46: Medium 47: Medium 48: Very hard 49: Easy 50: Easy 51: Easy 52: Hard 53: Easy 54: Easy 55: Easy 56: Easy 57: Easy 58: Easy 59: Easy 60: Medium 61: Hard 62: Easy 63: Medium 64: Very hard 65: Easy 66: Medium 67: Easy 68: Easy 69: Easy 70: Medium 71: Easy 72: Medium 73: Medium 74: Medium 75: Easy 76: Easy 77: Medium 78: Medium 79: Easy _________________________ Currently working on Prokofiev Piano Concerto 3 Beethoven Sonata Op.109 Chopin Op.10 No.1 Bach WTC II no. 15 --Sam--
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#1395810 - 03/14/10 09:04 PM Re: Measure by measure difficult breakdown of Chopin Op.10 no.1 [Re: xtraheat]
Orange Soda King 4000 Post Club Member Registered: 11/25/09 Posts: 4618 Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...	I thought about recreating your list and typing "subjective" for all 79, but I decided not to. I then thought about typing "uber-difficult" for all 79, but I once again decided not to. Finally, I decided to copy and paste this into a word document for future reference when I decide to learn this etude, because I figure something that could possibly be of some help when gauging how much to practice each measure is MUCH better than no helpful resource at all. So, thank you for sharing your insight! _________________________ Discontinuing the streaming practice for now, unless a few members PM me and still want me to do it.
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#1395819 - 03/14/10 09:22 PM Re: Measure by measure difficult breakdown of Chopin Op.10 no.1 [Re: xtraheat]
carey 3000 Post Club Member Registered: 05/13/05 Posts: 3957 Loc: Phoenix, Arizona	Originally Posted By: xtraheat I'm doing this just because I thought it would be kind of interesting to see a "map" of the difficulty of the sections of this piece. If anyone would like to agree or disagree, go ahead. Obviously, the difficulty of each measure is relative to the rest of the piece. 1: Easy 2: Easy 3: Easy 4: Hard (that D is really hard at full tempo) 5: Easy 6: Easy 7: Easy 8: Easy 9: Easy 10: Easy 11: Easy 12: Easy 13: Hard 14: Easy 15: Medium 16: Easy 17: Easy 18: Easy 19: Easy 20: Easy 21: Easy 22: Very hard 23: Medium 24: Easy 25: Easy 26: Hard 27: Easy 28: Easy 29: Easy 30: Very hard 31: Very hard 32: Very hard 33: Medium 34: Hard 35: Hard 36: Hard 37: Easy 38: Medium 39: Easy 40: Medium 41: Easy 42: Medium 43: Medium 44: Medium 45: Easy 46: Medium 47: Medium 48: Very hard 49: Easy 50: Easy 51: Easy 52: Hard 53: Easy 54: Easy 55: Easy 56: Easy 57: Easy 58: Easy 59: Easy 60: Medium 61: Hard 62: Easy 63: Medium 64: Very hard 65: Easy 66: Medium 67: Easy 68: Easy 69: Easy 70: Medium 71: Easy 72: Medium 73: Medium 74: Medium 75: Easy 76: Easy 77: Medium 78: Medium 79: Easy What may be "easy" for you may be challenging for someone else !!.... and it goes downhill from there !! _________________________ YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo
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#1395843 - 03/14/10 09:48 PM Re: Measure by measure difficult breakdown of Chopin Op.10 no.1 [Re: carey]
Phlebas 4000 Post Club Member Registered: 01/02/03 Posts: 4654 Loc: New York City	I'm not sure what the purpose is for this. Anyone can read through the piece, and tell what parts are more or less difficult for them. If there were actual suggestions, or tips, the thread might be more worth while. Also, I wouldn't say that any part of the piece is "easy," and what is more or less difficult is very subjective. For example, people with a large hand might not find the more stretchy parts as difficult as some of the less stretchy parts.
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#1395855 - 03/14/10 09:57 PM Re: Measure by measure difficult breakdown of Chopin Op.10 no.1 [Re: Phlebas]
xtraheat 500 Post Club Member Registered: 09/20/07 Posts: 625 Loc: WV	Well, it is just somewhat of a guideline. And while you are right to an extent, I can almost guarantee that people will find, for example, the measures in the 30's harder than the rest (or most) of the piece, so it can serve as a guideline. I said in my post that the difficult is relative to the rest of the piece, so the parts labeled "easy" are easy compared to the rest of the piece. _________________________ Currently working on Prokofiev Piano Concerto 3 Beethoven Sonata Op.109 Chopin Op.10 No.1 Bach WTC II no. 15 --Sam--
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#1395901 - 03/14/10 10:27 PM Re: Measure by measure difficult breakdown of Chopin Op.10 no.1 [Re: xtraheat]
stores 5000 Post Club Member Registered: 12/28/09 Posts: 5782 Loc: Here, as opposed to there	Ummm, ok then. _________________________ "And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy "It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right." ♪ ≠ $
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#1395941 - 03/14/10 11:22 PM Re: Measure by measure difficult breakdown of Chopin Op.10 no.1 [Re: stores]
BruceD Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member Registered: 05/26/01 Posts: 15661 Loc: Victoria, BC	I don't see the point of isolating each bar and labeling it as has been done as if each were independent of the whole; even when practicing, I don't think one would work on a measure at a time. Much of the difficulty is in attaining - and maintaining - the overall sweep and the movement from measure to measure. _________________________ BruceD - - - - - Estonia 190 in satin ebony
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#1395967 - 03/14/10 11:49 PM Re: Measure by measure difficult breakdown of Chopin Op.10 no.1 [Re: xtraheat]
argerichfan 7000 Post Club Member Registered: 11/15/06 Posts: 7466 Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.	Originally Posted By: xtraheat 31: Very hard For me, the most difficult measure of the entire etude if one is using the fingering 1245, 1245, etc. Peters gives an alternate fingering 1253, 1253, but as Charles Rosen points out, you can always hear the change in phrasing. I can do that measure at sub-speed, but it has always dogged me at full speed. I have fairly large hands -able to take the opening of Rachmaninov 2 without breaking- but this measure has always been a Waterloo, and the reason why I have never been able to play this etude in public. _________________________ Jason
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#1395979 - 03/15/10 12:02 AM Re: Measure by measure difficult breakdown of Chopin Op.10 no.1 [Re: BruceD]
xtraheat 500 Post Club Member Registered: 09/20/07 Posts: 625 Loc: WV	Originally Posted By: BruceD I don't see the point of isolating each bar and labeling it as has been done as if each were independent of the whole; even when practicing, I don't think one would work on a measure at a time. Much of the difficulty is in attaining - and maintaining - the overall sweep and the movement from measure to measure. I personally don't find that to be hardly any of the difficulty. Each new arpeggio starts back with a short break in the right hand the chord in the left hand. I have found the greatest difficulty is to play the measures I labeled "very hard" as smoothly as all of the other measures _________________________ Currently working on Prokofiev Piano Concerto 3 Beethoven Sonata Op.109 Chopin Op.10 No.1 Bach WTC II no. 15 --Sam--
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#1396587 - 03/15/10 08:43 PM Re: Measure by measure difficult breakdown of Chopin Op.10 no.1 [Re: argerichfan]
SlatterFan 500 Post Club Member Registered: 08/13/09 Posts: 721 Loc: Brighton, UK	Originally Posted By: argerichfan Originally Posted By: xtraheat 31: Very hard For me, the most difficult measure of the entire etude if one is using the fingering 1245, 1245, etc. Peters gives an alternate fingering 1253, 1253, but as Charles Rosen points out, you can always hear the change in phrasing. I can do that measure at sub-speed, but it has always dogged me at full speed. I have fairly large hands -able to take the opening of Rachmaninov 2 without breaking- but this measure has always been a Waterloo, and the reason why I have never been able to play this etude in public. Have you tried the exercises in Cortot's edition? I'm thinking of numbers 5-6 and 12-15. #5 is triplets missing out the 4th finger notes; #6 is triplets missing out the 2nd finger notes. #12-#15 feature an accented 1/8 note tied into a group of 1/32 notes for the next 3 notes of each group; for #12 accent each C, #13 accent each lower E flat, #14 accent each A, #15 accent each upper E flat. Sounds simple, and is, but I find small doses of these very helpful for this study, especially the dreaded bar 31. _________________________ Julian
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#1396594 - 03/15/10 08:55 PM Re: Measure by measure difficult breakdown of Chopin Op.10 no.1 [Re: argerichfan]
xtraheat 500 Post Club Member Registered: 09/20/07 Posts: 625 Loc: WV	This measure (31) was giving me a ton of trouble for awhile, but I tried a new hand motion, and it suddenly snapped. I can now play that measure at full speed at ease... I wish I could describe what I do exactly... I kind of swoop my hand, dipping down on the A and rising up on the E flat. Measure 22 is the only remaining measure that I am having trouble with... I can't play it without noticeable phrasing breaks, and I always end up accidently playing a B flat grace note along with the other notes. Does anyone have tips for this measure (its the D sharp, B, A, B descending measure _________________________ Currently working on Prokofiev Piano Concerto 3 Beethoven Sonata Op.109 Chopin Op.10 No.1 Bach WTC II no. 15 --Sam--
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#1396653 - 03/15/10 10:35 PM Re: Measure by measure difficult breakdown of Chopin Op.10 no.1 [Re: xtraheat]
Kreisler Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member Registered: 11/27/02 Posts: 12483 Loc: Iowa City, IA	Just an idea - measure 75 by itself is very different than measure 70 after the first 74. In an etude like this, tension is cumulative. Someone could be perfectly able to play any one or two measures of the piece yet be unable to perform it in its entirety. I also think the same is true where psychology is concerned. Playing the first ballade at the beginning of a recital is a lot different than playing it at the end of the same recital. Mental and physical stamina both play a role. _________________________ "If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt) www.pianoped.com www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed
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#1396660 - 03/15/10 10:41 PM Re: Measure by measure difficult breakdown of Chopin Op.10 no.1 [Re: Kreisler]
MMSGA Full Member Registered: 10/21/04 Posts: 393	Originally Posted By: Kreisler Just an idea - measure 75 by itself is very different than measure 70 after the first 74. In an etude like this, tension is cumulative. Someone could be perfectly able to play any one or two measures of the piece yet be unable to perform it in its entirety. I also think the same is true where psychology is concerned. Playing the first ballade at the beginning of a recital is a lot different than playing it at the end of the same recital. Mental and physical stamina both play a role. It's interesting that you mention the cumulative tension factor. As an aside, there is an etude by Villa-Lobos - the 1st of his 12 - which is probably based on the same idea as the 10/1. Each measure is do-able individually, but to perform it requires a different approach. Luckily for us, though, Heitor decided to put in a nice descending figure towards the end. It helps release the tension built up, but it's also a 'mare to perform smoothly. What he gives with one hand, so he takes with t'other... Edited by MMSGA (03/15/10 10:42 PM)
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#1396765 - 03/16/10 06:00 AM Re: Measure by measure difficult breakdown of Chopin Op.10 no.1 [Re: Kreisler]
Phlebas 4000 Post Club Member Registered: 01/02/03 Posts: 4654 Loc: New York City	Originally Posted By: Kreisler Just an idea - measure 75 by itself is very different than measure 70 after the first 74. In an etude like this, tension is cumulative. Someone could be perfectly able to play any one or two measures of the piece yet be unable to perform it in its entirety. I also think the same is true where psychology is concerned. Playing the first ballade at the beginning of a recital is a lot different than playing it at the end of the same recital. Mental and physical stamina both play a role. That's one reason I don't see the point of this. Measure 1 = "easy." Measure 71 (which is almost repeat of measure 1) = "easy." Well, perhaps, but it's at the end of the piece, and fatigue is a factor, so at that point it's not as "easy" as measure 1. Also - looking at op. 10/7. Some people might think measures 56 and 57 are the easiest. That may be true isolating those measures, but after playing a somewhat different figuration for the whole piece it's hard to switch gears.
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#1397078 - 03/16/10 04:10 PM Re: Measure by measure difficult breakdown of Chopin Op.10 no.1 [Re: Phlebas]
xtraheat 500 Post Club Member Registered: 09/20/07 Posts: 625 Loc: WV	Well, after practicing it for about two months regularly, I can play it up to speed with hardly any fatigue (although stamina has always been one of my strongpoints), so, while the fatigue may factor in for some people, it won't for others. _________________________ Currently working on Prokofiev Piano Concerto 3 Beethoven Sonata Op.109 Chopin Op.10 No.1 Bach WTC II no. 15 --Sam--
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#1397091 - 03/16/10 04:23 PM Re: Measure by measure difficult breakdown of Chopin Op.10 no.1 [Re: argerichfan]
Ridicolosamente 1000 Post Club Member Registered: 07/08/08 Posts: 1368 Loc: Miami, Florida, USA	Originally Posted By: argerichfan Originally Posted By: xtraheat 31: Very hard For me, the most difficult measure of the entire etude if one is using the fingering 1245, 1245, etc. Peters gives an alternate fingering 1253, 1253, but as Charles Rosen points out, you can always hear the change in phrasing. I can do that measure at sub-speed, but it has always dogged me at full speed. I have fairly large hands -able to take the opening of Rachmaninov 2 without breaking- but this measure has always been a Waterloo, and the reason why I have never been able to play this etude in public. I did 1235 with lots and lots of wrist. I never got it to performance tempo either though. Daniel _________________________ Currently working on: -Dane Rudhyar's Stars from Pentagrams No 3
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