SEARCH
Piano & Music Gifts & Acc. - Shop Now
PianoSupplies.com (a division of Piano World) Piano & music accessories, music theme decoratons, tuning & repair tools, moving equipment, party goods,music gift items, ... more
Free shipping on Jansen Artist Benches.
Ad (Pearl River)
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
ad (Pianoteq)
Create your own piano with Pianoteq!
(ad) Making Music Magazine
Making Music Magazine Special Offer
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
Who's Online
141 registered (4evr88, Aibori Firu, Arghhh, asd123321, AJF, AlexRB), 1142 Guests and 31 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
63306 Members
39 Forums
128838 Topics
1834928 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
(ads by Google)
Forums by Piano World

www.pianoworld.com
Advertise on Piano World
Topic Options
#1395615 - 03/14/10 03:28 PM Tritone substitutions in older music: suggestions & info?
Jake Jackson Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 450
Loc: Atlanta, GA
I’ve been trying to learn more about two chord substitutions—the tritone of the fifth chord and what I think is a iiib aug tritone substitution for the vi in a vi-ii-V-I sequence.
In the latter case, I’m thinking of the movement in older songs , such as “If I Had You” from I to iiib aug (?) to ii. It’s moving towards a brief stay on the V before resolving to I. In other words, since I don’t trust my own nomenclature, the notes, chords and progression in Bb are:


Bb-D-F (I)
Db-E-A (iiib aug) (?)
C-Eb-G (ii)
C-F-A (V in 2nd inversion, often)
Bb-D-F (I)

My questions, in case you’re wondering:
Is that Db-E-A chord an aug minor chord, or is there a better way to think of it? It appears to be an alternative to a milder sounding iiib dim (Db-E-G) in that same chord sequence.
Is there a good source of information about how these two substitutions are used in older songs? I can play many variations, and I’m hearing many possibilities. I understand that one can use a triton sub just about anywhere, but my focus is just on this older sound. Any books or sites that spend some time on this?


Edited by Jake Jackson (03/14/10 03:38 PM)

Top
Piano & Music Accessories
#1395846 - 03/14/10 09:50 PM Re: Tritone substitutions in older music: suggestions & info? [Re: Jake Jackson]
Jake Jackson Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 450
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Hate to answer myself, but it turns out that the Db-E-A chord is probably an A major chord with the third in the bass and the root on top. So the progression is taking a chromatic step down in the chords, but moving up in the bass, and using the first inversion on that A chord, so the root on top gives it a sense of moving up instead of down.

Still a little odd, though, since the vii is not a passing chord. The vi gets left out entirely, so the sequence becomes I - vii - ii - V - I.


Edited by Jake Jackson (03/14/10 09:55 PM)

Top
#1396127 - 03/15/10 07:47 AM Re: Tritone substitutions in older music: suggestions & info? [Re: Jake Jackson]
Guy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/30/07
Posts: 290
Loc: Massachusetts
There is a really old book (70s or early 80s, I think) called "How to Create Jazz Chord Progressions" by Chuck Marhonic (I always thought that this guy either has the perfect name for his profession, or at least it is an anagram).

I found it to be slightly different than it's title...it is really a primer on jazz chord progressions, concentrating on ii-V7s and tritone substitutions.

You may already know this, but the general rule (in a jazz context) is that you can pretty much substitute, for any dominant chord, a dominant chord that is a tritone away from the root. The reason why is that both chords share the exact same notes as the third and the seventh. One place where this may not work as well is if a melody note is the root or fifth of the original chord. That is, for a tritone substitution, the 3rd/7th stay the same, and you are altering the root/5th (so if the melody note is a root or 5th, then altering it may clash with the melody).

This was all really clear to me after I worked through Marhonic's book.

Like most jazz instruction books, you can always find them at Jamey Aebersold's site (www.jazzbooks.com).

Guy

Top
#1396200 - 03/15/10 10:22 AM Re: Tritone substitutions in older music: suggestions & info? [Re: Guy]
FatJeff Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 23
Loc: Denver, CO
On the topic of books ... I found the following to be really good at discussing in depth some of the harmonic devices used in jazz compositions.

"The Harmonic Language of Jazz Standards"

http://www.outsideshore.com/school/music/harmonic/

Top
#1396558 - 03/15/10 07:37 PM Re: Tritone substitutions in older music: suggestions & info? [Re: FatJeff]
Jake Jackson Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 450
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Thanks for those suggestions. I'll look into those books. I must say that this progression is giving me a lot of pleasure.

It's a strange thing. The original progression that I changed was Bb-Db dim-C minor-F-Bb, which is a fairly conventional turn around, according to what I was told in the KVR theory forum, where I also posted this question. But changing the flatted 5th to a sharp 5th changes it to a new chord while keeping the same general sense of motion, opening up a lot of new harmonic possibilities and scale notes. I'm sensing that I'm scratching the surface, too.

Top



Moderator:  sharpsandflats 
What's Hot!!
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
Piano Books
(ad) GROTRIAN
GROTRIAN Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(ad 125) Sweetwater
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Lindeblad
Piano Restorations & Sales - Lindeblad Piano
Recent Posts
concert pitch
by Mike Carr
7 seconds ago
Yamaha SU7 question
by beethoven986
26 seconds ago
Taking a break from lessons :(
by Stubbie
7 minutes 28 seconds ago
Interview with Cyprien Katsaris
by landorrano
13 minutes 8 seconds ago
I changed my view of Lang Lang
by TwelfthRoot2
16 minutes 26 seconds ago
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Virtual Piano Chords



 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |
 
PianoSupplies.com


Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| Del.icio.us |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2012 Piano World all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission