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Nick, don't worry about the 6:3 octave, you will tune it naturally as you work on the octaves above the temperament. Just use A3 as it is from where you tuned it in ET. I will send you the same detailed instructions I sent to Patrick a while back. These need to be posted on my website but I have not yet taken the time to carefully edited them for any typos, etc.

It would be great if you are able to understand and follow the instructions, like the results and can post a recording!

GP, that is the cleanest, most beautiful sounding Claire de Lune I have ever heard! I have been quite busy lately and fallen behind on private e-mail to you but I will try to get to those. Could you please post the sound file that another interested party made and that I forwarded to you?

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These need to be posted on my website but I have not yet taken the time to carefully edited them for any typos, etc.

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Why not? All of your postings here have always been perfectly edited. It seems like it would be a good idea to have them posted on your website.

Hi Bill,

it's quite possible that I'll take you up on this challenge. I know the piece, but it's nowhere close to 'under my fingers' as it's one of the ones I've never studied deliberately.

Needless to say, it would need some practicing. It's not overly difficult, but it needs to be under control if there is going to be any benefit from it. (Makes me think of the famous quote by Rachmaninoff: "without technique, there can be no interpretation" :-D )

Anyways, I'll take it up for practicing, and I will also check with my classical collegues at the conservatory, maybe some of them has it in their repertoire.

Thanks, Byron, I did in fact use that material for an article on octave tuning which is now on my website and will be published in the April issue of the PTG Journal. The document is quite long and it contains comments that were specific for Patrick that I need to change for public consumption. I just need to find the time to go through it, format it properly and send it to my webmaster. I am enjoying listening to GP's recordings right now!

Thanks Patrick, as you study it, I hope you find in it what I did. Since it is a composition from the Romantic era, there is a lot of freedom to interpret tempo and dynamics. I wish there were some way that I could recover the recording I have somewhere on a cassette tape and make it available here. I still remember the way it sounded 15 years ago, however. No interpretation of it that I have ever heard since has come even close.

Here is a link to Arthur Rubinstein playing it. It is better than another I had seen that I thought was really lifeless. Now, he is a great master of the piano and the piano is tuned as we would expected it to be. However, Rubinstein's interpretation can't hold a candle to the way that an 18 year old student interpreted it 15 years ago on a Baldwin 9 foot tuned in the 1/7 comma meantone.

He took the passages in the Major key of A-flat, started with a pleasant sounding mood but soon, that mood became frenzied, nervous and breathless, swirling with emotion until it built to an incredible climax and suddenly crashed. After the crash, the mood was brooding and painful but slowly recovered until it built again to what it had been before.

It is this kind of extreme emotion that can be found, recovered and expressed again in music through the use of non-equal temperaments.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcR3tAeTwmE

Consider what Jean-Phillipe Rameau had to say about this:

"We receive different impressions from intervals, in proportion to the amount of alteration. For example, the Major third which moves us naturally to joy, as we know from experience, impresses upon us ideas even of fury when it is too large. The minor third which brings us naturally to sweetness and tenderness, saddens us when it is too small...Knowledgeable musicians know how to exploit these different effects of the intervals, and [they] value the alteration which one might [otherwise] condemn, because of the expression they draw therefrom."

The above quote was found in a 2001 doctoral dissertation by Dr. Willis G. Miller, "The Effects of Non-Equal Temperament on Chopin's Mazurkas"

The complete text can be viewed here: http://www.millersrus.com/dissertation/#

Hello.

Sorry GP, I'd never mix other issues with your fresh enthusiasm, but this is a due action.

I don't know how many of you have gone and read the dissertation linked above.

Anyway, in paragraph n.7 you read (about unequal temperaments): "The degree of color variance, then, is entirely manipulative."

In paragraph n.9 you read: "Ozanam theories on key characteristics are echoed in Jean Phillipe Rameau's (Digione, 1683 – Paris, 1764) first publications..." (1722).

In paragraph n.12 you read: "Eleven years after the publication...Rameau became infatuated with the concept of Equal Temperament and completely dismissed the existence of key-characteristics."

Now, I would find that partial information is "manipulative", like we read about UTs, and that would be despicable.

Any explaination?

a.c.

Bill asked me to post this from one of his customers who is liking EBVT III. Ralph, that sounds wonderful, and nice playing! Bach 3-part 2-channel #2 http://www.box.net/shared/yvq9nzknu8

Bill, glad you enjoyed the Clair de Lune, lovely sound in EBVT III, and such beautiful music. I noticed that after this 4th tuning, that pesky treble section is not going flat as much.

LOL...I keep thinking of things to say after I post...it's such a pleasure Bill, to re-discover all this music on my piano. It's literally like I am hearing if for the first time.

I have just made some recordings last night of several Ampico pop rolls of the 1920's and 30's that are some of my favorites....I will post them tonight. I have heard these rolls many times, and I must say, they sound so much better in EBVT III...harmonies/resonances that just grab my attention, which makes them even more fun to listen to....:)

Yes, Alfredo, it means that he changed his mind about what he was interested in. The temperament he used was a modified meantone and it was VERY unequal and that was typical of his time. Just like Bach, he decided at one point that he wanted a temperament that was more accessible to all keys. The theory of ET had always been there, since the time of Pythagoras and even before that among the ancient Chinese way before the common era.

But did you also read that just because he thought about ET did not mean he could tune it and he could not. Rameau was known for many temperaments, including some quasi ETs but not ET itself. He did not discover a way to tune ET accurately. It would be quite highly manipulative in my view, to take that one phrase that you found to suggest that 11 years after he wrote about the effects of interval sizes on emotions, he took a tranquilizer and tuned his pianos in ET after that.

What I was actually looking for was a list of descriptions of the effects of various key signatures that composers themselves wrote. They are in Owen Jorgensen's publications somewhere but I thought I might find them on the web and they may be but I cam across that phrase by Rameau.

It described quite well what I was referring to in the interpretation of the Schubert Impromptu. You can hear Rubinstein play it and if you like that, fine but I for one, have heard it performed in an amazing way that I will never forget. I would like for Patrick (who just happens to be a piano performance professor) to learn the piece and he can then show us how a non-ET can add to the emotions in the piece which are clearly intended. The fact that Rameau later attempted to explore ET was not pertinent although I did consider adding that I thought his change of mind was an interesting twist. That interesting twist does not change the fact that interval sizes do affect the emotions.

Patrick may also be able to come up with some other examples as he learns to play according to temperament and show us how ET affects his mood in one way but the EBVT affects it differently. The player piano cannot do that. Some of the darker moods of the Fauré nocturne in E-flat minor, Chopin in a dark mood, such as the funeral march, Rachmaninoff in his darkest moods, etc...

I recall at the 1998 event, the pianist played that Chopin funeral march in the original EBVT. The audience was impressed by the intensity of sadness there was in the EBVT and the lack of it when she played it in ET. The Schubert piece I would like to hear is interesting because it goes from one end of the spectrum to the other and back again, all in one piece.

Thanks a lot, GP, I have enjoyed every single one of your posts so far! Ralph is not one of my customers. He read about the EBVT on my website and learned to tune it. He did not know how to post the recording however and neither do I, so I asked you to help with that. Thanks for the accommodation!

I just tried the EBVT III and it was EASY!

I just followed Bill's instructions. I thought being an aural tuner would make it hard for me. Is it possible that exactly the opposite is true?

I thought it would be more radical than it is. It is actually a lot like the way I tune already, in that I favor nice clean 5ths over octaves anyway - always have.

As far as the major thirds in the temperament, it actually sounds like a lot of other tuner's tuning! Those who primarily use 4ths and 5ths.

I have always strived for evenness in my tuning, but these variations seem to actually open things up a bit more, not so 'contained'. And the piano sounds calmer which is actually pleasing.

After the temperament octave, I just did what I like anyways and tuned 5ths pure. The stretch seems to be very good and musical. It occured to me while tuning the octaves in the treble that what I have used previously might be limiting my stretch because if you stretch too much the 5ths get noisy on the expanded side, does this make sense?

As regards the bass, it seems also stretched to the down side a little more than with ET and this is where you might be able to hear more variances over ET because you tend to hear the rapidly beating intervals more in the bass anyways. They are less pronounced, but the piano still has some vibrato effect and it gives the piano a lot cleaner sound.

Bill, do you think I did it right? It was fast and easy for me. I kind of like not messing around with all those RBIs.

I have just gone over the piano again (playing it) and I hear nothing inconsistent or objectionable. I didn't think a non ET would be so even.

I can see why/how Bill could make this the only way he tunes.

It sounds like you nailed it, Nick! Past the first 4 RBIs that I tune, I never listen to another one after that. It's all 4ths, 5ths and octaves. It is a very easy and simple way to tune a piano and it can be remarkably consistent in spite of how little cross checking there is. It does resemble to a large degree what a crude 4ths & 5ths tuner would do but instead of the inequality producing random effects or worse yet, reverse well, the effects of well temperament are there.

We would all be interested to hear some recordings. you are in a unique position to find out how the musicians who visit your showroom react and also if the way you make the pianos sound actually increases your sales. I believe it can based on the experience of one of my colleagues here in Madison. He refuses to ever tune a piano in ET. He says he does not want his pianos to sound like his competition's pianos. Until a few years ago, there were four piano dealers in Madison but now it is down to two but his sales and business remain very strong.

The first time you ask one of your musician friends to try a piano tuned this way, I would suggest not revealing what you have done differently. Just get the reaction without introducing any influences which may affect perception. Certainly, for example, if you said outright, "I tuned this piano in an unequal temperament", it would influence the perception. What you want is an honest, unbiased reaction. If you can, you could have two of the same make and model of piano, one tuned in ET as you always have and the other tuned in the EBVT. Ask the pianist to try both and tell you which he/she likes best and take note of descriptive terms.

Rather than me telling you what to expect which I believe would be all positive, I would rather you tell us what happens. You have seen all the warnings and read all of the negative comments. Let's just find out how musicians and the public who buys your pianos and uses your services reacts. I know that you are also a concert technician. The first thing that many people would tell you is not to dare to try it. I would suggest finding out how your clients perceive what you do and get to the point where you are totally confident with it. I have used the EBVT for all concert tunings since I developed it with the exception of the Beethoven Emperor Concerto for which I use the Vallotti temperament. Never once have I had an artist ask me to change the temperament. I always get nice compliments.

I sincerely hope that you have discovered something new that you can put to use to your own benefit and the benefit of the music that comes from all of the pianos you tune.

GP,

Thanks very much for posting the recording of the Bach 3 part invention #2. Now that I listen to it again I wish I had hit more of the correct notes. If you get a chance, PM me with instructions on how to post a sound file.

I have really enjoyed Bill's EVBT and EVBT III. I've always thought of it as "blooming" the piano. The sound opens up and blooms like a church organ. It's a great temperament. Thanks Bill.

I just have to chime in here. I tuned my piano with EBVT III and it sounds wonderful! It has a softer more calm sound to it. I didn't think I'd notice much difference but I did. It sounds very musical to me, not offensive at all.

Andrew

Grandpianoman, I just want to say that I like the sound of your latest recordings alot better, very enjoyable!

Andrew

Dear Bill,

Many thanks for your description of how a fourths-and-fifths tuning can easily slip into reverse-well. To get a feeling of how "bad" things can become, I have a question. Here's what you wrote:



I don't quite understand this, by the way, because you just wrote that A4 was right on pitch. But that's just an aside. You continue:



By way of comparison: if I understand you correctly, the C4-E4 M3 in EBVT III is about 10 cents wide (please correct me if I understood this wrongly!) Could you give me an indication of the width (in cents) of the neighbouring M3s (B3-D#4 and C#4-F4), both of which are five positions removed on the circle of fifths, and would therefore both be classified as "lively" or "colourful" keys - by how many cents are they wide in EBVT III?

I'm just trying to get an impression of how unequal the EBVT III really is.

Many thanks!

Mark, sorry, in the first quote, it should have said E4 is too sharp.

For a good visual representation of the EBVT III, see the color graph here:

http://www.billbremmer.com/ebvt/ebvt_iii.jpg

The graph shows all interval sizes in both cents and beat rates.

Also, Rafael from Mexico City calculated the beat rate differences for me as they would be if you played the notes unison for unison with a keyboard tuned in ET. When I posted the information, Tooner attacked it and called it misleading and warned against drawing any conclusions from it.

F3 0.2 bps
F#3 0.0 bps
G3 0.4 bps
G#3 0.1 bps
A3 0.0 bps
A#3 0.4 bps
B3 0.0 bps
C4 0.6 bps
C#4 -0.2 bps
D4 0.1 bps
D#4 0.3 bps
E4 -0.1 bps
F4 0.4 bps
F#4 -0.1 bps
G4 0.7 bps
G#4 0.2 bps
A4 0.0 bps

What I think the above figures show is how the EBVT III is compatible with other fix pitched instruments tuned in ET. These figures confirmed what I already knew from experience. The actual difference between ET and the EBVT III is actually an extremely small one. There is a purpose and an effect from that difference, however an that is the reason why I use the EBVT III and have used it year after year on thousands upon thousands of piano tunings without a single complaint from any people for whom I have worked. You must draw your own conclusions.

It would not be as misleading if the figures were listed as hz instead of bps. If hz was used, it would be understood that the difference is between the fundamental of two pitches with the same note name. bps is generally used when referring to nearly coincident partials of two different notes.

A simular list of "bps" for any non-ET including the so-called "reverse well" could also lead someone to believe that the difference in the beat rate of RBIs would hardly be noticeable.

But even when tuning or playing unisons, the matching of upper partials still comes into play. A 0.4 hz difference in fundamentals will produce 1.6 bps on the fourth partial.

The real problem is in staddling the fence. If EBVT III is different than ET and that is what is preferred, fine. But if it is hardly noticeable from ET, then what's the difference, and why bother? We better get used to people talking out of both sides of their mouth. I't a mid-term election year.

That zone, the one in which on one hand, doesn't matter but at the same time results in a positive difference is where I have explored now for over 20 years. The usual perception is that any difference at all from ET would be unacceptable. But then, there is the "just get it close" mentality. That would work too. What can be done within that range that really does make the music come alive? Well tempering is the answer. I'm not the only technician who has done it.

Why is straddling the fence a problem? If the temperament were unequal enough to really be clearly noticeable, it would be unacceptable to nearly everyone. It seems to me that GP is glad that he "bothered". Now, Nick M. who was quite skeptical has found that not only does he like the sound but the whole idea is far easier to execute than ET. It is therefore, less of a "bother", an example of how to get better results with far less effort.

Can you argue with Owen Jorgensen's comment which the graph maker, Jason Kanter chose to post at the top of his graph? "For what they accomplish, your temperaments are remarkably easy to tune. They will prove to be very valuable for that reason". What has been accomplished has been very valuable to me and my customers. Now, other technicians are realizing the value as well. Jorgensen's prediction was correct.

So, just who is talking out of both both sides of his mouth here? At the same time, the EBVT III is unacceptable but also not enough difference to really matter. Which is it?