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#1394605 - 03/12/10 07:34 PM Re: Stubborn parents! [Re: AZNpiano]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1291
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
Is there any reason why the students can't learn loads of popular music as well as continuing to prepare for the testing the parents want?


Because some parents refuse to pay for anything longer than a 45-minute lesson in which I have to cover theory, technique, sight reading, ear training, and [gasp!] repertoire. For these problematic students, I already pick the shortest pieces allowed for each level.

The part that takes the longest time is technique. For these kids to learn 5 scales, play 5 chord chord progressions, learn broken chords and arpeggios, and correctly play primary/secondary triads is ilke pulling teeth.


I know exactly what you are talking about.......

The method I've used to overcome this is that I've changed my rules: I don't enter students for external assessments until they already know the repertoire to at least pass standard, and they have a passing familiarity with the technical requirements. Students tend to be entered for exams that are the very top end of their potential, and this is a self-defeating use of external assessments, not least because there is then no time for anything besides the work required for the assessment.

This is really a huge topic, and I have some other things to attend to today.....!
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Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
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#1394712 - 03/13/10 12:08 AM Re: Stubborn parents! [Re: Minniemay]
AZNpiano Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 3586
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: Minniemay
Why do you think they are having trouble pulling this together? It would be interesting to hear your approach and how your students progress through the skills.


These problematic students HATE their technique requirements. I take it very VERY slowly. One element at a time. For a few kids, the concept of fingering eludes them. It takes them weeks to learn one scale correctly. It's like they REFUSE to believe they HAVE to use a certain fingering. They are perfectly content when they can press the correct keys, with whichever finger their whim dictates.

The worst elements are chord progressions and primary/secondary triads. OMG. These kids have problems playing one note in each hand, let alone three notes in each hand. I've tried everything--even writing out the letters, all of them.
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#1394718 - 03/13/10 12:21 AM Re: Stubborn parents! [Re: AZNpiano]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1291
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Originally Posted By: Minniemay
Why do you think they are having trouble pulling this together? It would be interesting to hear your approach and how your students progress through the skills.


These problematic students HATE their technique requirements. I take it very VERY slowly. One element at a time. For a few kids, the concept of fingering eludes them. It takes them weeks to learn one scale correctly. It's like they REFUSE to believe they HAVE to use a certain fingering. They are perfectly content when they can press the correct keys, with whichever finger their whim dictates.

The worst elements are chord progressions and primary/secondary triads. OMG. These kids have problems playing one note in each hand, let alone three notes in each hand. I've tried everything--even writing out the letters, all of them.


Again, I completely relate.....
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

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#1394892 - 03/13/10 10:02 AM Re: Stubborn parents! [Re: Elissa Milne]
Piano*Dad Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 9207
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Quote:
The worst elements are chord progressions and primary/secondary triads. OMG. These kids have problems playing one note in each hand, let alone three notes in each hand. I've tried everything--even writing out the letters, all of them.


Well, have you suggested that they take up the recorder? Only one note at a time. grin
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#1395392 - 03/14/10 05:10 AM Re: Stubborn parents! [Re: Piano*Dad]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1291
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
Quote:
The worst elements are chord progressions and primary/secondary triads. OMG. These kids have problems playing one note in each hand, let alone three notes in each hand. I've tried everything--even writing out the letters, all of them.


Well, have you suggested that they take up the recorder? Only one note at a time. grin


The best approach to these is to take any written music out of the equation altogether - the student needs to be hearing the shapes and thinking about how to form those shapes on the keyboard.

But that's useless advice when the assessment is looming and the student is too useless to practice..... But it does sound as if they are attempting to pass a level that is beyond their abilities, and therein lies nearly all the frustration.

And we circle back to the original issue, which is parents announcing that their children will take assessments annually whether they have practiced, attended lessons, made progress, or not.
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

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#1395542 - 03/14/10 01:56 PM Re: Stubborn parents! [Re: Elissa Milne]
Betty Patnude Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 4878
Loc: Puyallup, Washington
About teaching inversions - I've found it helpful to teach the fingering away from the keyboard one hand at a time: simply seeing RH root 1-3-5/1st inversion 1-2-5/2nd inversion 1-3-5. Just get used to the rule first of all about specific fingering for the RH.

Start with C Major 5FP chord. CEG. Which finger is on G? 5?
When you invert the chord, which finger will be on G? 2?
When you invert the chord again, which finger is on G? 1?

Prepare the hand shape with logic:
Remind them that CEG is a 5FP
E to C is a 6 note interval covered by 5 fingers. Create room for the "empty" note between the 1st and 2nd fingers.

Same with G to E being 6 notes.

Having the hand shape defined with the targets being "who's on G" should greatly help their understanding and decision making.

The "good news" is that his "formula" continues to work over all 12 of the major 5 FP's where the root/major chord is defined.

Work these ideas out carefully at the piano and see if it helps you and your student. I'm glad to say everybody gets it with good graphics, upfront verbal instruction about letter names, keyboard orientation, hand shaping, and careful exchange of targeted notes.

This may seem "artificial" to some teachers, but it works great, and the artificial soon is replaced by ease of movement and accuracy. I even ask my students who are comfortable with it to close their eyes while playing inversions just because it's so doable and guaranteed when you've had thorough preparation.
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#1395554 - 03/14/10 02:07 PM Re: Stubborn parents! [Re: AZNpiano]
Nikolas Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 2830
Loc: Europe
AZN: One quick question. Are the parents aware of the following two things (two things that I make sure I tell all my students and parents).

1. Piano playing is not like math, which needs perfect understanding but "little practice". It's not that if you know how to solve the equasion you're ok. You need to practice daily. Don't do that and it's not the teachers fault!

2. Piano exams are NOT like school exams where 90% of the students pass to the next grade. You can very well fail! And they are certainly not indicatory of how the student is doing.

In the field of composition the above is irrelavent since all of my students are private students (thus they know I can't provide a degree of any sorts) and they are adults. But in piano, the parents seem to understand and sympathize with the above two notions.
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#1395990 - 03/15/10 12:34 AM Re: Stubborn parents! [Re: Elissa Milne]
AZNpiano Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 3586
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
The best approach to these is to take any written music out of the equation altogether - the student needs to be hearing the shapes and thinking about how to form those shapes on the keyboard.


I tried that, too! Nothing works.

The only thing that seems to work for these kids is DEADLINES!! I can't explain the phenomenon that is last-minute practice. The lower-level kids can get away with cramming, but it will get tougher and tougher as one progresses up the levels. These kids are so used to procrastination and "cram before the test and forget everything after the test," only deadlines will work for them.

Mental myopia.
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Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member

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#1395992 - 03/15/10 12:38 AM Re: Stubborn parents! [Re: Nikolas]
AZNpiano Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 3586
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
1. Piano playing is not like math, which needs perfect understanding but "little practice". It's not that if you know how to solve the equasion you're ok. You need to practice daily. Don't do that and it's not the teachers fault!


I disagree with your generalization of math. The only way I got through calculus is with MUCH practice. Lots and lots of practice.

But I do agree with you that piano-playing does require a lot of practice: diligent, conscious, and conscientious practice.
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Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member

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#1395997 - 03/15/10 01:01 AM Re: Stubborn parents! [Re: AZNpiano]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1291
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
The best approach to these is to take any written music out of the equation altogether - the student needs to be hearing the shapes and thinking about how to form those shapes on the keyboard.


I tried that, too! Nothing works.

The only thing that seems to work for these kids is DEADLINES!! I can't explain the phenomenon that is last-minute practice. The lower-level kids can get away with cramming, but it will get tougher and tougher as one progresses up the levels. These kids are so used to procrastination and "cram before the test and forget everything after the test," only deadlines will work for them.

Mental myopia.


See, they shouldn't be wasting everyone's time having lessons - these kids have ended up in the habit of not actually learning, but cramming, so there is nothing gained from the experience - let them loose!!! You can do without the aggravation, and God knows they aren't gaining anything from the experience either....
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

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#1396000 - 03/15/10 01:07 AM Re: Stubborn parents! [Re: Elissa Milne]
AZNpiano Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 3586
Loc: Orange County, CA
This phenonmenon is widespread. Blame high-stakes testing in schools. Kids get the idea that, as long as they passed the tests, everything will be okay. Learning is of secondary importance.

Some serious reflection to do.
_________________________
Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member

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#1396332 - 03/15/10 01:47 PM Re: Stubborn parents! [Re: AZNpiano]
Betty Patnude Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 4878
Loc: Puyallup, Washington
Related to Nicholas: "Piano playing is not like math.."

Actually, piano is very mathematical and I'll resort to "doing the math" from time to time. The theory of music is very convincingly mathematics and science. Acoustics? Physics? Intervals? On and on....!

Just looking at the "graphical" music staff and the keyboard divisions of notes and octaves is a combination of both science and math.

Make use of those concepts when it adds to your students knowledge base. It might be the missing dimension for them to conquer all things related to reading notation.
_________________________
Piano Teacher - Member MTNA/WSMTA

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