Point out something invisible? And you'd believe me? I think they'd lock me up. Don't be so lazy, read Matthay.

Actually, I forgot to say before- the frequently flopping hand that you see in my film caused a lot of tensions. I recall well how I was having to hold slightly within my forearms to stabilise both a number of the quiet chords (especially those just before the lyrical theme returns in E major) and the rapid repetitions. Since then I have been working on a much more consistent arch, with the aid of a mirror. Alan Fraser showed me a very comfortable way of forming part of the shape in a very direct fashion during the process of depression (in fact it even causes the depression, without the arm needing to push down), which has since made a world of difference.

So, I don't know how immediately obvious these tensions are from the film (perhaps only to a 'specialist' eye)?. However, having experienced them, I can assure you both that they occured and corresponded with the flopping knuckles. Fortunately such things are far more comfortable, now my hand works better.

So you are ridiculing HIM for the absurdity of your claims? What has Matthay got to do with anything? YOU claimed that these exist in this specific film. If there's reason to believe that you are doing anything other than trying to convince yourself that you are correct by looking for the invisible where it does not exist, then try demonstrating it. Don't be so lazy as to palm people off onto irrelevant textbooks.

But, why should I read Matthay, when you're here to point it out? You're saying that there are invisible flops present, so, I'm assuming you're able to pick them up. I would, certainly, love to acquire this know how. Don't be so lazy; show us, please.

'irrelevant textbooks'!? As Matthay was the first to talk about the invisible in piano playing, in my book very relevant indeed.

Come on now. Don't question the doctrine. You've just got to have faith. Leave those apples alone or you'll get kicked out of the garden.

So, in other words, you could have picked a film of ANY pianist and claimed that they are doing this invisibly. Yet you have no way of knowing?

You're not even a real person are you? This is clearly a wind-up.

You read Matthay because you have respect for one of the greatest minds in piano pedagogy.

I'm afraid it takes years of work (plenty of reading too) to acquire this 'know how'.

not to mention the ability to make transparently ludicrous claims whenever the evidence is stacked up so squarely against you. All credit to you for wanting to go down with a sinking ship. I'm just sorry to hear that you have students who are on board with you.

LOL.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELIZA

All good pianists do. How do you know? They're not injured!

Hey, I have an idea - why not put me on your ignore list?

Sure. But they don't know it? Great, so let's go on with not realising or caring if we do it, instead of flailing about like yourself. How about we even try forming asupportive shape- which is not invisible in good performers.

Exactly, their teachers (like yours) do.

I learned how to relax my wrists many years ago. It's easy. You can learn it in a few minutes. What is difficult is to actually MAINTAIN a balance that permits this. Flopping yourself every time you seize up is a dead end. It doesn't train the ability to maintain anything in the least. It trains you how to alernate between crippling tensions and functionless flaccidity. I wasted ages on this, just as you are doing, and it led me nowhere. I was as tense as hell half of the time. Clearly you are stuck in the same rut. Do you not have any interest in improving?

I'll ask the same question you ignored before. Is your method failing you or are you claiming that you were simply born too untalented to play to a higher standard? I don't believe in untalented pianists. I believe in those who don't know how to move efficiently.

Sorry, gotta stop you there. No! Read your Edmund Jacobson.

Let me ask you - How often do you beat your wife?

I am being "cruel but fair". If you're not willing to ask yourself this question, you're never going to break free of the cycle that leaves you playing to such an ordinary standard and with so little comfort. And you're never going to stop inflicting this appalllingly short-sighted advice on others. This is not a question that you can afford to duck, if you actually care about either music or the wellfare of your students.

PS. Why are you still visibly flopping where others do it invisibly? You didn't even progress beyond stage 1 yet? Not time to move on still?

How refreshing to see your caring side for once!

I'm not arguing with you here. My point was that you could give me a "leg up", should I decide to read Matthay, by cluing me (and everyone else) in on what to look for with the invisible flop. I do realize, that it must take long years of practice to develop this skill (especially, since you're spotting the invisible) and I'd, simply, like to start learning now, so as to not waste any more time.

p.s. I'd also like to ask at what point should a pianist take his drop and flop to the subversive level? Is it something that other pianists know about (i.e. have I been missing out on something that everyone else is aware of?)

The way to get tar and feathered on the piano teachers forum is to say "Those that can, do; those that can't teach."

Perhaps we should have a new saying on the pianist corner "Those that can, do; those that can't teach. And, those that can't teach read historical books and post hysterically on internet bulletin boards."

Sorry, kbk, you know I have a soft spot in my heart for you and your zany posts and I love books as much as the next guy, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating. There is no such thing as a good theory of piano technique without it leading to good technique in practice.

I don't agree. If you can't do it, then you've no business teaching.

And you'll (and I do mean you) need to show me my technique isn't good in that case (and that's not just pointing out where you disagree). Not the first time I've been ask to 'put up...'

+1

I do hope that's hysterically as in laughing (our friend perhaps fits the other epithet better). By the way, here's the last roasting: http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/577652/3.html Starts about half way down.

I must say this has been the most entertaining (and enlightening) thread I've read here in quite some time. I wonder, however, if the OP (Dreamer 66) got scared off by the explosives. He posted once (March 7) and then went into hiding. Dreamer 66 you can come out now!

He's only posted once since then six days ago and in a different thread. But maybe, just maybe....I ruined his life with my 'appallingly short-sighted advice' ? He's now lying on skid row destitute?

Dreamer66 on Skid Row

N, I'm not going to change my terminology... I call things as they are for a reason. I don't understand why you're still beating on 'tension must be there' ... If any young person (teenger) or inexperienced pianist read that, it could lead to terrible things, including pain,
what you are saying about the use of muscle is natural.. More or less.

Just like you said it took you 15 mins to learn how to relax your wrists, it took me similar time to learn about sound production. It's really not that complicated. The only thing is, you have to maintain it until it becomes a habit, or natural.

That's a very important point. Adding tension is the easy part, taking it away can take years (not minutes as N seems to be claiming).