This is precisely my point though. You are not describing it as they are. If you strive to take all the tension out, you strive to relax everything. If you strive to remove "discomforts" or "seizures", you do almost exactly the same- but without being in risk of being led to remove those muscle activities that are actually positives. To talk of removing all the discomfort or maybe "blocks" rather than all the tension is a far clearer description of what occurs.

I don't ever talk of "adding tensions" to students. It's such a confusing word, that I'd prefer to avoid reference to it in any circumstances- except in a specific localised region which has seized up. However, if you talk about hoping to remove them without trace in general, the danger is that you remove the positive contractions too (forcing other muscles to tense in the instant of playing, without choice). Why not use a separate terminology, to avoid the confusion? If you talk of comfort and muscular activity, it's far clearer than if the word tension ever comes into it. I really wish that the word "tension" had never been associated with seizure, as it's actually a sliding scale, all the way almost zero tension (which can be indequate for a a task) to complete locking up. You cannot seek to eliminate tensions. You can seek to eliminate seizures or discomfort.

Well, presumably you'll have no problems filming yourself in a fairly difficult piece which you can play with comfort and ease? We've seen the seizures in your Grieg, you know.

I also recall your demonstration of good thirds technique, on which I pointed out how drastically you were swivelling from the wrist and how dangerous such movements are for real thirds at speed. Strangely, my comment disappeared from youtube. No doubt it was those who might learn something by being protected from that knowledge, you were trying to protect, rather than yourself.

The 'thirds' comment was removed because you do slow thirds like this:
As for a 'fairly difficult piece', you know where my youtube channel is - choose one yourself.

So it's fine to strain the wrist with such woefully inadequate movements, as long you collapse onto it too? That's puts more strain on it, not less. I don't employ any down movements of the arm at all when playing or practising thirds. Neither do many competent performers. There's a way of floating up with the wrist that activates the fingers properly. That doesn't merely teach you how to release the wrist but how to KEEP it free during regular playing where there is no time for collapse.

Collapsing onto a very poorly aligned wrist is absolutely awful advice and shame on you for thinking that you are in a position to advise anyone on thirds. Upload a video of the results in action at even a moderate pace (say, that required for Grade 8?), if your method works. How do you propose to relax your wrist while unsupported by flopping fingers? You can't. That's why you are unable to upload anything other than a demonstration of how to play thirds at a snail's pace.

No one would have obvious wrist movements when playing thirds at speed! The release, again, will be one of those invisible things. You learn 'at a snail's pace'.

So how is the snail's pace coming along? At what age will you be able to upload a video of you playing thirds at Grade 8 tempo? Personally, I prefer my students to get there before they are in their 50s.

I've said I hate the word relax... not what I was saying.



Yeah.



Without choice - meaning we do it because that's how ANYONE plays piano. You need to do something to play, don't you? I'm not talking about removing that.. obviously. That wouldn't make any sense at all!!
I'm talking about letting the unnecessary tension go. After playing something loud, release the pressure of the keys (slightly, this is a very little movement) otherwise your forearm muscles will die of pain if you never release. But I know you know that. I'm only saying it because I don't understand why you're arguing with me.




Yeah... With my limited English I'm going to assume you mean it's far clearer that the word tension doesn't come into it, right?




Well, my entire life "tension" has meant "seizure, discomfort, pain", etc. "Tension" as you use it, for you, means the natural force of playing, I guess? If you take that "tension" away, your hands will be incapable of doing anything at all. Which doesn't make ANY sense in this argument.

So really, let's not argue for the sake of arguing, especially if we don't even disagree on those things; we seem to be calling them different names. As someone said previously, it's hard to describe these things over the internet (at least, it is for me, I'm a much more visual/aural/feel person).

But I am interested to know what you think of my 'tennis' analogy. Or baseball or golf.

How the hell do you think I got my grade 8? Let alone a performance diploma? Now you are annoying!

Yeah, that's it exactly. Playing is literally caused by muscle tensions. The more I think about it, the more I think that the reference to "tension" as being a negative has caused real problems. I'm not directing this at you, but how the word has been used in general. It really muddies the understanding of what actually occurs. Considering what we often mean by tension is actually too much tension (the reality being that many tensions are actually positive), wouldn't it be better to clarify it by referring to excesses by separate terms like 'seizures' or 'locking' and hence avoid confusions? Even insufficient tension in a vital muscle is a tension. Strive to reduce that and it's a real disaster. I'm really starting to think that I should throw out the word tension entirely. In one instance it can give a false impression of undue exertion where none is intended. And in the other it can give an impression that relaxation is desirable where it isn't. Either could lead to huge problems, due to the imprecision of meaning.

I like your golf analgoy certainly. It makes plenty of sense to have good grip at the point of contact, but to keep plenty of freedom. Once more though, I wouldn't describe it as removing as much tension as possible though. The arms would certainly not hang under gravity before starting the strike and the back needs to be exceedingly alive, not slouching. That's all from muscle tensions. Once more it would be a lot more direct to think of it as a state of comfort and freedom, rather than than a state that is achieved by generally trying to rid yourself of as much tension as possible. It's as much about which muscles need to come into active use as those that need to let go of tensions. The fullest understanding can only come from seeing both sides.

So let's see the results in action, please.

KbK N

yep, getting nowhere fast with their duelling!

I don't care how you would call it, as long as it means what you say it means.

But yeah, the word tension's what was confusing me. Like you said maybe you should throw it out.. That word makes me feel almost nauseaus every time I hear it because it was a real disaster for me and the reason I almost quit piano.

My videos take time, patience and some willing. Do you think I do them to order? And for you? Who the hell do you think you are? Go find your own pissing contest.

Ooh. Presumably the thirds aren't working for you today then? No better than on the day when you decided to film them at an ultra-slow tempo without bothering to illustrate how the movements would be integrated into the whole- for the benefit of any students who might have been deeply confused as to what those bobbing movements and awkward angles could have to do with the final result?

Those who can do. They don't claim to able to but then duck out of something as straightforward as a grade 8 scale. Best if you stick with quoting Matthay, perhaps?

You are quite crazy. I've got to do a video because you say so?

Well, exactly the same here. Ironically, my tensions were caused by the simplified doctrine that all tensions are an enemy. That's why I had no free will over where they occured and why starting to focus on which muscles activities were required was the only possible answer. If the word tension were not so universally portrayed as a negative, rather than as the sliding scale it ought to be viewed as, it would have been far clearer.

In teaching, I never used the word tension except in a negative light, btw. However, I'm increasingly seeing that this is as open to as much confusion as using the word "tension" to describe positive muscle use would be. From now on, I think I'll probably refer almost solely to extreme tensions as "clenching" so as to avoid any potential confusion.

Well, you said something about feeling that your technique is an extremely healthy one. I just thought you might like to take the opportunity to make that claim seem more credible than a scan through your current videos might suggest it to be.

Yes, pointless as ever. I take comfort from the fact that when I return to the piano, I've discovered principles that will keep me progressing, in a way I did not when I used to follow kbk's type of approach. I'm actually trying to help him realise why he's hit a dead end, although I'm afraid he's just not willing to see it, no matter how poorly evidenced any of his ideas are, or how many mistaken facts they are constructed upon. Some people just don't want to think, learn or be helped. I think it's just a big shame when those people mistakenly believe they are in a position to advise others.

Please keep your thoughts to yourself in that case!

You challenged people to illustrate that your technique is not up to it. If it is up to anything, then you might want to prove it. Nothing on your youtube account suggests much ease or comfort at a keyboard, and that's mostly within rather simple pieces. If you're not up to proving yourself at an instrument, why make such a challenge? The best you can do is tell people to piss off, if they follow up on your challenge?

There must be an awful lot of people who you could learn from on this forum, who play to a vastly better standard than you. Why are you so busy trying to "teach" them by quoting half-understood passages from textbooks, instead of looking to learn from them?

You come up with one unfounded statement, after another, after another. All it does is blow threads if a poster responds. Goodbye, permanently.

You can try to hide from the truth by blocking the messenger, but that won't help you to make any progress in either your playing or understanding. The biggest losers from your refusal to even acknowledge what is staring you in the face, however, will be your students. That's a really big shame.

Playing piano is all about that , exactly (but it means lot of work !)

At this rate, I anticipate that Nyregyhazi will be a 1000 Post Club member before this thread is locked!

LOL

Yeh, never mind the quality, feel the width.

is that what you tell all the ladies?

HAHAHAHA
couldn't resist sorry...