After a long search I bought a Kawai K3 and like it a lot. As my playing comes back I now want a grand too. I'm leaning toward a Mason B or A. I like both very much. I am also considering an Estonia 168. I really like the tone on the Estonia but the action is very heavy for me. Both the A and B are light and fast for my old hands but I really have to work at the Estonia. The dealer has assured me that the Estonia action can be lightened to play just like the Mason (without major surgery). Is this possible?

Thanks, Lew

Regulation of the German Renner action to effect lighter touch is total routine for experienced techs.

Except those who work of course for other stores....

Norbert

Hello DRLew,

Yes, it is possible.
My piano technician just regulated the action of L190 and now it is noticeably lighter, faster and has more control.
The action feel can be adjusted by professional technician and make sure he or she has experience with Renner actions.

Good luck.

Just a little clarification,
Renner actions adjust the same as the rest.

Renner doesn't make actions, they make stack parts to manufacturers specifications. Sometimes they assemble the stacks, rarely if ever do they hang the hammers.

Renner does not make key frames or keys

A technician with the right experience in regulation can evaluate, convey to you the possibiities and regulate the Estonia just fine.

DRLew--
I have an Estonia 168 that sounds beautiful in my home, and it also has very heavy action. I find in many ways it gives me better control, especially playing softly, but I also think the heavy action makes it tiring to play louder pieces or fast pieces for long periods of time. I mentioned it to my tech, though, and he thought the action wasn't that heavy. Another person told me, "Don't let a tech touch that action," like I might be treading on sacred ground. Until you wrote this, I thought maybe it was all in my head! The sound is so gorgeous, though, that I haven't wanted to mess with it, but I may try again when it needs tuning the next time. I'm curious as about what others have to say about this, so thanks for bringing it up.

Nancy

Assurance and performance are two different things.

Yes, the Estonia action can be lightened but, assuming the Estonia action is already properly regulated, it may take some modifying. If the action feels heavy to you because there is excessive friction at various points in the action this can be fixed rather easily.

If, however, it feels heavy due to the mass of the hammers and the overall leverage of the action then, while it can be changed, it will probably not come under the heading of a warrantee repair. In other words, Estonia will be under no obligation to make these changes. So, unless the dealer is willing to foot the bill you will probably have to have this done on your own and it could be expensive.

The easiest way to do this is to relocate the capstan screws under the wippens. Very small changes can usually be made without also modifying the wippens but if the change is significant then the costs can go up rapidly. As well, once the overall action ratio has been changed there will be a change in the amount of key travel required to make the notes play. The key travel will necessarily increase. You may or may not like this change.

All of this is to say it would be a good idea to have a firm agreement with your dealer as to who will be paying for any changes that must be made to the action. And be prepared to have the cost of these changes factored into the selling price somewhere.

Were it me I’d ask the dealer to make sure the Estonia action is well regulated and that it has the proper amounts of friction at the various rubbing and rotating points and try it again.

Now, having said all of this—are you sure the Estonia action is really all that heavy. You are comparing a piano with an inherently softer sound (the Estonia) with pianos that have an inherently stronger, louder sound. If you are playing them in a typical large piano showroom you will have to work rather harder to get the same volume level out of the Estonia. This is not a defect of the Estonia design--it is part of their charm; just wait until the piano is in an appropriately sized room. If your dealer is really accommodating he may have an appropriately sized room he can move the piano to so you can see how it feels to you in a smaller room. You may not have to work so hard to achieve the volume level you are after.

ddf

DRLew,

Dell made a good post above, I only wish he started with the latter part of his response since the Estonia really doesn't have a heavier action (or less responsive with inertia issues) if properly regulated and set up, and especially when compared to American pianos such as Mason and Hamlin or Steinway.

I would not expect any action geometry or hammer weight changes to be needed unless one likes an action that is light to the extreme.

The regulation, friction, voicing and room acoustics can all affect one's perception of the action's weight.
Since the dealer knows that you find the action on the heavy, he will probably be glad to make some simple regulation modifications, which can make a world of difference to the feel of the action.
Sometime a huge difference can be achieved within an hour of work, if not minutes (depending on where you start from), and in any case it is in the dealer's interest to have the pianos on the floor properly regulated and friction free.
he should be happy to give it a try in order to make you happy (and at the same time sell the piano).

If action geometry changes are needed in order to accommodate a taste for a very light action or a specific acoustics, there are some pianos with actions that are intended to provide a 'lighter' feeling.


Interestingly, the only two times that we modified the Estonia's action to customer's specific requirements were actually to make it heavier (by reducing the key weight) and not lighter...

Thank you for emphasizing this point.

I was responding to the notion that actions can be made “lighter” simply by changing the regulation in some fashion. My point is that they cannot. Once an action is properly regulated—and friction is properly controlled—there is no separate regulating procedure that will make an action either lighter or heavier. Unless, I suppose, the action has either wippen assist springs or one of the several magnetic touch weight regulating systems. I don’t think Estonia has either but I could be wrong. Lacking these mechanism touch weight is a function of hammer mass and action geometry. And friction.

It is certainly the case that an action will feel heavy to the touch if it has excessive friction but I would hope this has been checked by the dealer as part of normal new piano prep work.

ddf

Just speaking from my own experience - I tried a few Estonia at Norbert's the other day and didn't find any of the action heavy, and I am used to action on the lighter side.

I really appreciate this thread. I too find the action on our new L190 a bit on the heavy side--compared to the various other new pianos I play from time to time in dealers' showrooms--not terribly, oppressively heavy--but heavier nonetheless.

But the other aspect of this piano's action is that it is incredibly even--the touch, travel, and pressure required on every key seems (it might be different with a more experienced pianist)to be perfectly equal. This leads me to believe it is what Del calls properly regulated.

And don't get me wrong--now that I am doing Hanon and scales religiously, I can acheive much better velocity than back when I was much younger and didn't practice.

Del: You speak of "friction". Am I correct in assuming that if my action were somewhat heavier due to friction--there would tend to be more unevenness and stiffness between keys--or some kind of rubbing sensation?

Thanks to all for the good information.

Russ

I would take up on the dealer's offer and see how you like the Estonia's action post-adjustment and go from there. Good luck!

The dealer told me that this was a simple and routine adjustment. My evaluation included two extended playings on the Masons and the 168 in alternating order. My evaluation was based playing as softly as possible, both slowly and rapidly, and my focus was the downforce only. My thoughts are that the pain in my hands is a much more accurate and objective measure than the tone, dynamic range or other acoustic considerations. All the pianos were able to produce very low volume easily. I know with the years of experience represented in the comments above that there are many misconceptions about physical performance, perception and sound but I think mine is accurate. That said, I'll be playing the instruments again this week and will report back.

The dynamics, color, tone etc. of each was unique and very pleasing. All things being equal I would gladly own either.

Not necessarily. Moving surfaces like the action centers can have consistently higher than normal friction which will make the key touch feel uniformly heavier. A technician with a good understanding of action geometry and regulation can make a simple downweight/upweight test to determine whether or not your action falls within normal parameters.




Then I would ask the dealer to please make these adjustments so you can see how the piano feels with a lighter touch weight. Several dealers, including Ori who is also a technician, have written that Estonia actions are not inherently heavy. So, if you are attracted to the tone of the Estonia you owe it to yourself to find one with an action that feels comfortable to you to try out before making your final decision.

I agree, both are excellent instruments. There is a difference in tone and tone dynamic. In an ideal world you should be able to make your decision based on which sounds best to your personal ear.

ddf

The above is the best advice you have gotten.

People throw around the words light and heavy, but they don't tell you too much.
Ori's point about sound and acoustics affecting the perception of touch is a good one, often repeated on PW.


The above point by Del is very important.
If you had a range of acceptable feel for pianos, the Estonia, even after perfect regulation and having all bad friction removed is well within the range of acceptable, but definately on the heavier side. Especially when compared with the newer Mason & Hamlins which are purposely designed to have as little mass as possible in their actions ( although with fairly massive hammers) and are super light. Both their actions with composites and traditional materials are very very light.
It is counter intuitive, but a super light action can cause a lot of tension to the player because they require super precise technique to control. Whenever I hear someone call a piano "unforgiving", I wonder about the lightness of the action compared with a norm.
The Estonia action has a lot more mass in it than the new Mason & Hamlins, but actually have a very acceptable to slightly low amount of mass compared to average. The action geometry on both new Mason & Hamlins and new Estonias is very good.
So, bottom line is if after the Estonia is regulated including having all bad friction removed, the piano is still heavier than your taste, making it lighter may require changing the geometry a bit, and/or removing or adding mass. This is much more complex to get right than simple regulating, and it is beyond the experience of most technicians.
To further confuse the issue, the Estonia might be right in the pocket of not to heavy not to light, but your current approach to playing is more comfortable with a lighter feel, and you might easily adjust to a correct touch within a couple of weeks while finding a light touch becomes too light.
Spend plenty of time auditioning these pianos, and let us know how it turns out.

Just so everyone is aware, there is another option to this general issue, although, at the outset, I want to make it clear that I am NOT advocating that this particular poster take this route. It is called the "Adjustable Leverage Action", and it is David Stanwood's latest invention. First, let me explain what it is not. It has NOTHING to do with his "Precision Touchweight Design" and does not utilize magnets or springs to counterbalance the mass in the system. It does not require movement of the capstans, removing or adding mass and does not address friction issues. It works entirely by making the balance point, or fulcrum, of the key adjustable....movable forward or back using a proprietary mechanism with two dials located at the front of the keyframe, just behind the keyslip. It works best in a system with a "medium" to "medium heavy" touch as a starting point. Extremes at either end of the spectrum do not respond as well. I worked with David in his shop on Martha's Vineyard for five days last summer installing the second unit ever made into my 1930 restored Steinway "M". The answer to the next logical question is; It works DRAMATICALLY well, without changing the ability to regulate the piano to spec. The biggest job, after the fabrication of all the parts for the prototype and its installation, was leveling the keys, as you have to ultimately place the punchings under the mechanism, which requires its removal and re-installation. Once that is done, though, there is nothing more to deal with out of the ordinary. Just imagine being able to offer ANY pianist the ability to dial up the action response level THEY prefer, on the fly....from very heavy to very light!!! David has since been installing these units in Universities and performance centers all over the U.S. By the way, I also own an Estonia 190 and a Mason and Hamlin Concert Grand, but have not installed this system in either of these pianos.

Well I feel a need to chime in at this point. I own an L190 and have always felt its action was a bit heavy. I've recently had two techs visit to evaluate the instrument and got two very different responses.

The first suggested shaving the hammers and removing the staples and then suggested a price that was beyond my means ($1100). The second spent more time evaluating the instrument, measuring down weight (between 54 and 59 grams, mostly toward the heavier side) and up weight (between 20 and 30 grams) and checking for friction (there is some in a few spots but easing the bushings a few years ago removed most of it). The second tech suggested a full regulation and mentioned a price of about half the previous offer. If that didn't do the job he was thinking of adding more weight to the heavier keys, but probably wouldn't be able to add much in the bass where the up weight was lowest. He didn't mention anything about moving the capstans.

In any case the second tech seems to be taking a more conservative approach. I wasn't very keen on messing with the hammers and am leaning toward the his ideas (when budget allows). I'm curious what others think of these ideas.

The action is too heavy and he is suggesting adding MORE weight to the heavier keys? How is he proposing this will help? Sounds to me like he doesn't understand the difference between static touchweight and what a pianist experiences during the DYNAMIC act of playing. What he is proposing is to add mass to the front of the key to counterbalance the weight at the back. This makes it easier to START the key in motion from a resting, static position, but just adds to the perception of "heaviness" as you play, since it adds inertial mass that you have to work against. This is NOT the proper approach to this problem, and I would steer clear of his suggestions.

CC2,

If there is a very small amount of mass in a key and adding more will improve the downweight and upweight and the overall key mass is still within a good range, that is fine.
Steve's tech identified that adding mass to the front of the key would bring the upweight to a point that is too low, so it sounds like he is at least somewhat aware, and a better solution may be needed.

As usual, when I take part in a discussion among true experts, I end up with the roots of my hair follicles hurting. After reading your post, CC2, I may have to have my IQ re-evaluated.

One other question though about my own Estonia: If, as I believe, it is just a little on the "heavy" side but extremely uniform across the entire keyboard, is the friction you mention, Del, in the action centers likely to loosen somewhat with time and playing?

Russ

Eventually, yes. But if the action (or bushing) cloth is of good quality this may take a while.

One last point before I become unavailable for a while--
The weights and/or springs in the damper system can also be a factor in overall touch weight calculations. When upweight and downweight measures are taken it is always with the dampers raised. When the piano is played, of course, the dampers form part of the mass and/or spring force that the pianist’s fingers must work against.

Some manufacturers (and I do not know if Estonia falls into this group) lead their damper levers a bit on the heavy side just to be sure that the dampers will shut the vibrating strings down quickly. This is most noticeable when the piano is being played at pianissimo.

Just one more thing to check....

ddf

This is always the very best route to take.

When trying out different pianos, this initial impression is often based on what piano one is used to from before.

For example, when owning an upright before, the touch of a grand is often inititally judged by the way one is used from before. In worse cases, this could also have been a digital.

I am not saying this applies in thes case, but becoming more familiar with a different type piano such as a grand can take time.

Interested to hear what OP's impressions will be as he tries out more pianos.

Norbert

Thanks, as always Del. It is so helpful to have your shared knowledge.

Nobert--you are absolutely correct--and in my case, although the piano I owned beofre was also a grand, it was 85 years old and extremely loose. At first, I was helpless playing the easy to intermediate pieces I know well. The first two weeks I made huge strides getting back to where I had been. Then the learning curve has gotten a little slower--especially where I have to make any kind of jump.

I will consult my technician/tuner on this during his first visit, but I'm pretty certain I will leave things alone for at least a year or two.

Russ

I wouldn't say my 190 is heavy, but it takes an effort to play p or pp...I'm going have the tech do something next visit...

Expounding on Del's point re: dampers: one can reduce the mass you are working against during playing by adjusting the dampers to engage later in the keystroke. This results in more free travel at the back of the key before engaging the mechanism that Del speaks of.

The discussion about all of this can virtually go on forever.

Since this threat started 2 customers chose an Estonia grand each with slightly varying "touch-feel" .

None of it couldn't be changed easily or at moment's notice -which is always part of our deal with new owners.

In fact, it's quite amazing how much can be accomplished by simply making some minor changes to the repetition springs...

Please allow pictures of the interesting looking nickel plated 168 grand, a model we only had once before and was custom ordered by a prominent local doctor:

http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/IMG_0272.jpg

Norbert

This also makes the sound more dry. Pianos are always rob Peter to pay Paul.

I just had my Estonia 168 regulated again this past weekend because I felt that the action was a bit heavy and I'm feeling some pain in my left hand when I play certain passages (a full regulation was done by the selling dealer when I bought it new 1.5 years ago and also about 1 year ago by my tech to adjust the action to my liking).

In addition to checking the down weight (44 g), the dampers' timing (good), the tech also lubicated the action, adjusted the back check (the yellow tabs in the back?), adjusted the spring a little and also did something to reduce the key dip ever so little. I'm very happy with the result and the piano sounds less bold but more refined (which is perfect for the Bach I'm working on).

I feel that the action feel is a very subjective thing and it's better to like it before you buy it than buying a piano under the assumption that it can be adjusted to your liking, post-purchase.

OK, Norbert, so I'm an idiot. I opened the link thinking I was going to see a metal piano--something like the one they had aboard the Hindenberg.

Russ

By "they require super precise technique to control" do you mean ease of playing pp, control of dynamic range in general, ease of playing fast passages, or...?

Do you know what the factory spec touchweight range is for a Mason BB(mine is three years old)?

Thanks.

I mean when working with a super light action you need a super precise technique to control your playing. Soft, loud, slow, fast, and everything in between. I am talking about purposeful music making, not just hitting notes. This is also assuming the piano's sound is normal and not overly muted or dead.

I seem to remember the factory spec for a Mason BB being around 52g-50g of down weight, but that was from before they had removed so much of the mass from the actions ( 5 years ago)
They were coming in with a higher downweight to us more recently, around 60g, but with such a small amount of mass that they felt considerably lighter.