SophieM mentioned having the "key dip" reduced somewhat on her L168. I have been impressed the shallowness of a friend's early 50s Steinway baby grand and kind of like the feel.

Sounds like this can be done on my L190 Estonia, but can anyone explain how this is done, and what is the "trade-off" for a shallower key dip? Thanks

The first thing you will notice is less power. [reduced hammer travel] Secondly you will have as good as no after touch.
This effects the control you have when playing.

We did this once by *special request* [against our advice..] to a young pianist who enede up buying a Chinese piano from us.

The other day he came visit trying a new Estonia with proper regulation. He loved it.

Go figure....

Norbert

Thanks for the reply, Norbert. I would be quite hesitant to make any changes in my L190 unless it would be inexpensive and reversable. It is pretty much perfect as is, but would be fun to experiment nevertheless.

I agree.

Perhaps your neighbour's piano....

Norbert

Well .... I finally got back to the Estonia 168 after it had been adjusted. There was a SIGNIFICANT difference from before. It was still not as light as the A or B Mason but very acceptable nonetheless. I am still waiting to play a Shigeru on my road trip next month. Liking both the Mason's and Estonia equally I would gladly live with either.

At the dealer I took the time to again play Kawai RX and a Brodmann BG 187 for the first time. I was very impressed with the Brodmann. Would anyone care to share thoughts about the build quality of this instrument vs. the Estonia or Mason & Hamlin?

As basically 100% handbuilt pianos, the Estonias and Masons are definitely in a league of their own.

Prices for these pianos reflect this fact.

Soundwise, you may find Brodmann closer to a European than an American piano. Depite being a "production piano" the piano does share certain similiarities in terms of both components and design.

For some "built quality" is the most important circumstance - for others lesser so.

Happy choosing - keep trying the different pianos out!

Norbert

DrLew, do you know what they did to the Estonia you played that made it significantly lighter? You said earlier that it was a routine adjustment, so it must not have been something permanent like others here have discussed. I'd love to hear about it so I can consider it for my own Estonia.

Nancy

Some of our own tuner/techs routinely demonstrate different touch-feel options to our customers, especially when asked to do so.

Some adjustment like changing pressure of the repetition springs, can be shown very quickly, others take longer.

All steps are fully reversable and none of them have to last forever.

The problem is that only VERY few techs are really good this stuff - to be frank, not the most intersting subject for most...

Unless these guys happen to be players themselves and personally APPRECIATE the difference [perhaps for their own use and application..] enthusiasm is not a common by-product for the average service guy asked to do extensive regulation work.

Many think it simply doesn't pay to sit in one place for hours doing prickly work when they could be doing 2-4 more tunings elsewhere instead.

Find someone who stronlgy disagrees with the above and can't get up fast enough in the morning to get into the thick of things....

Norbert

This may not be the best example of what I am going to point out, but it is the most recent.

I'm tired of you putting down techs that don't play the piano.
Some of the BEST piano techs I know are non "players"
That being said many great techs also play but that does not give them a pedigree.

Rod:

Only somebody like you could read my comments as "putting down" techs.

My comments came straight form the mouths of those local techs visiting us 'secretly' - apparently much against your own advice and *directions* to do so....

Norbert

So are you saying piano techs that play are telling you they are better than techs that don't?

Apparently is the key word here.

No apparently about it. Confirmed by independent sources with direct knowledge.

Technicians who play themselves are of course not *automatically* better techs, but they often have a different connection to the instrument.

It's a very simple point supported by long standing industry requirements for the German "Klavierbauer" [piano technician] insuring he/she also have a level of piano playing and music appreciation.

There's nothing "exclusive" about it.

The top techs [Meisters] I had hired from Germany before frequently stopped during their work "checking things out"

They were in no way 'elitist' [ in fact humble people..] doing the same a car mecanic would do taking the car for a spin after work completed.

Bravo to those who fully understand a pianist's requirements and sensibilities without playing themselves.

Norbert

This I can agree with.

Rod:

Let's try to keep the conversation where it's helpful to people.

These little squabbles among us are not necessary - we guys in the industry are all here to help the public to a better and better functioning piano.

P.S. we need another tech who is excellent in regulation and voicing work. If you know one - send him on in....

Norbert

Dan I have met you once in all the years you have been in town.
I have invited you a few times in the last year to visit me.
You have never taken me up on my offer or the offer of coming to a PTG meeting.

Whoever confirmed what is hearsay.

I have NO control over PTG members if they do not want to go to Norberts store. Any choices they make are made on their own.

O.K.

This is the second time you have made reference to "changing the pressure of the repetition springs" in a way that seems to imply it is going to change touch weight of the action in some way. Would you care to explain?

Or am I misunderstanding your use of the term "repetition spring?" In my lexicon the term “repetition spring” refers to the spring that supports the repetition lever component of the wippen. It is adjusted to regulate the speed of hammer rise once the hammer is released from check. If it is not tight enough the jack may not reset properly. If it is too tight it may prevent the hammer from smooth and consistent checking often causing the hammer to bounce and/or double-strike. There is a fairly narrow range of spring pressure in which the wippen works properly. Adjusting the repetition springs outside of this range will cause the action to malfunction but will not affect action touchweight.

ddf

Rod,
I have been involved with the piano business in this area since 1974. I advertise in the same places and work in the same areas as yourself. At any time you could have contacted me if you had a desire to meet with me.



I did receive an invitation from you to attend your shop for coffee in May of 2008. In November of 2008 I telephoned your shop in an attempt to take you up on your offer as I was working in your area of the Lower Mainland. In a very gruff manner you informed me that you were busy and hung up the receiver before I could make further arrangements for the future. I did not feel it appropriate to pursue this issue any further.




As stated on the Canadian Piano Page, you are associate member only, (and will never become an RPT), I am on the understanding the President or senior members who are RTP’s are the ones responsible for invitations to increase membership.

As you have stated many times previously on this forum, the PTG meetings have been held continuously in your shop for the last 20 years.

As you are a direct competitor to other rebuilders and retailers in this area, many of the independent technicians in this area view this as a serious conflict of interest, simply because we do not have a desire to meet on premises which also serve as a piano outlet for certain brands, and represent the interests of others in the piano business here.

Moreover, as you perform contract repairs and contract work for the most powerful piano outlet in this local area, the previously mentioned point is especially important.

Many of us have no desire to constantly look at Yamaha/Steinway products.

There are other instruments that we would like to have knowledge of too. This never happens when the meetings, conventions, or seminars are held continuously in the same venues.

That's just bunk!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And I just invited you to our shop again last week.






First of all where do you get I will never become a RPT??????
All I need to do it take the tuning exam I've done the others.
I am not a full time tuner so I have not focus my time one tuning. I tune with a Accu Tuner and the exam has to be passed without it.

Second I can invite anyone I want, the executive does not have to be the ones that put out the hand.



I have recently invited you to check out the Blüthners and Irmlers and while your at it your more than welcome to check out the Charles Walters.

A note to the crew from B.C......

Perhaps the side discussion can be taken to P.M.'s and the rest of the people can continue with the topic?

Ken

This was the original question by O.P.



This was O.P. opinion later down the thread...



Great, let's wait then...

Norbert

Whatever the final report from the OP I am afraid this could still become an endless discussion as I can imagine following following scenario that could be as real as the one that is mentioned so far.....

* "I am also considering a Shigeru. I like the tone on the Shigeru a bit less than on the EStonia but the action was still a bit heavy for me."

* "Well .... I finally got back to the Shigeru after it had been adjusted. There was a SIGNIFICANT difference from before. It was still not as light as I expected but very acceptable nonetheless."

* "I am still waiting to play a 'brand X model Z' on my road trip next month.

The only thing I want to say with is that:

1) The original thread title - 'heavy to light' - is already confusing to start with. Most of the time if people refer to heavy/light they mean donwweight and personally I do not think downweight is what matters; it is all about action responsiveness which encompasses much more.

2) One cannot choose a piano based on one aspect only - e.g. the action feel - but has to evaluate the instrument as a whole, taking into account many aspects like tone, action feel, build quality ....and yes even dealer competencies.
If one does not there is always the risk one ends up in viscious circle discussions about one element of a piano. As an example I had a friend last week to get out testdriving a Shigeru SK3. He reported back to me he found the action to be a bit on the heavy site (the same confusing commnet as the one given by the OP), and yes I was surprised as I would have expected him to say he liked the action of the Shigeru because of it's responiveness.

If instead one is prepared to consider the many elements that make up an excellent acoustic piano and is then also willing to accept the fact that together with your dealer/tech tandem you can work on one specific element to get it adopted to your specefic liking, then verything is possible. For this read following thread from our fellow member 'wadslee' who made his dream come true by having made the action responsiveness even better than what he tought was the responsiveness of a Shigeru and finally became the owner of an Estonia which he choose for it's complete character.

Our Estonia L190 'Hidden Beauty'

schwammerl.

Last night I tracked down the tech that did the adjustments to the Estonia. He said the actions are regulated well at the factory but without regular play the felts can bind until broken in. He said he adjusted the frictions, letoff, drop, escapements and more, I couldn't write fast enough to get it all down. It took him three and a half hours. I don't understand everything he told me but I did make a point of asking, and he said it was a standard regulation job and not a modification in any respect. As a stranger, and not his customer, he was gracious to take his time to explain and answer my questions.

So with the action regulated it's clear to me that there was enough range to adjust it to my liking. Perhaps I should have been more detailed about my perspective in the original post. I played professionally for ten years, thirty years ago, mostly jazz. My hand strength now is/was not sufficient to play as rapidly on the Estonia as on the Mason when I first sat down with both. Based on my experience that had little, if anything, to do with the dynamic range, tonal characteristics, properties of the showroom or any factor other than the user interface, but that's just my opinion.

An additional impression, I play a lot of complex chords and the pure and fundamental tone of the Estonia is able to convey each note and the overall color clearly, where other instruments were not. The Mason was also able to do this very well with it's unique tone.

As far as the Shigeru, I will be happy to share my actual experience later next month, rather than conjecture.

I don't agree with this.

I would say that one can often make the piano more to one's liking to some degree, but one cannot make big changes in the basic tone or touch of a piano unless one is willing to start replacing hammers/strings etc. or do major action makeover. So I definitely wouldn't say "everything is possible"...more like something is possible. I also don't see why one has to choose onething to work on.

Well said !!