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#1391482 - 03/08/10 04:13 PM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: ChopinAddict]
ChopinAddict Offline
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Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6075
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
Is it is OK to use the Dover edition (collection) by the way? Or should I use the Fontana edition?
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#1391561 - 03/08/10 06:00 PM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: jazzyprof]
cast12 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/14/09
Posts: 219


What fingering do you guys use for the arpeggios I circled in red?

I'm using 5,3,2,1,2,4. Even though I have large hands, I'm having trouble playing these arpeggios quickly. Should I try 5,2,1,2,1,2? Or would that fingering slow me down?

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#1391577 - 03/08/10 06:14 PM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: cast12]
jazzyprof Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/04
Posts: 2598
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
I use 5,2,1,2,1,2. I haven't tried it at blazing speed yet so I don't know how well it holds up at performance tempo. It seemed to me the most comfortable, injury-free fingering.
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#1391584 - 03/08/10 06:18 PM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: ChopinAddict]
jazzyprof Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/04
Posts: 2598
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Originally Posted By: ChopinAddict
Is it is OK to use the Dover edition (collection) by the way? Or should I use the Fontana edition?

I'm pretty sure it's OK to use the Dover edition. I think it's based on the Rubinstein manuscript that BruceD mentioned.
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"Playing the piano is my greatest joy...period."......JP

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#1391585 - 03/08/10 06:18 PM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: jazzyprof]
Brandon_W_T Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/10
Posts: 1940
Loc: Omaha, Nebraska
I use 5-3-1-3 (crossover)-1-3

I have a tendency to use 5-3-1-3-1-3. It just sort of happens naturally when I play it.
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#1391639 - 03/08/10 07:53 PM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: Brandon_W_T]
ab-ster Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/04/08
Posts: 152
Loc: Seattle
I'm starting to learn this piece after listening to Yundi Li & Igoshina. What a fantastic piece.

After overtaking measure 7-8 difficulty (boy that was really frustrating), my current challenge is the part where the accents moved from #1 to #5. Accents on #1 is very natural, but I could never managed proper accents on #5. What's the trick?

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#1391667 - 03/08/10 08:53 PM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: ab-ster]
jazzyprof Offline
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Registered: 11/30/04
Posts: 2598
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
I'm glad to hear someone else had difficulty with measures 7-8!

And now the part where the accents shift from #1 to #5. This shift is only in the Fontana version and starts from measure 17:

I learnt a trick to bring out the accent on the pinky:

Practice each quadruplet of 16th notes as a chord, and for each chord strike the accented note four times (loudly) while holding down the other notes. Move on to the next quadruplet.

Then practice the quadruplets as written while listening for the melody in the pinky.
_________________________
"Playing the piano is my greatest joy...period."......JP

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#1391780 - 03/08/10 11:28 PM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: jazzyprof]
BruceD Offline
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Registered: 05/26/01
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Loc: Victoria, BC
Measures 41 and 42 in the Fontana edition :

Does anyone play these measures as indicated in the score?

These two measures are marked both Lento and pesante, yet I don't think I have ever heard a performance where those indications are strictly observed. In other words, following Fontana's interpolations, those two measures are still at ff and should swell to even louder in the middle of measure 41, and both measures 41 and 42 should be slower than the "B" section (moderato cantabile) beginning at measure 43.

Even Maurice Hinson in the rather detailed Alfred "Anatomy of a Classic" edition of the Fantaisie-Impromptu remarks : "The più lento at measure 41 begins fortissimo and pesante [heavy], after which there should be a diminuendo and slight rallentando into the sostenuto at measure 43. He seems to be confusing the indications in the manuscript and Fontana editions, the version that most performers seem to prefer, Rubinstein excepted.

In the manuscript edition, it's marked più lento and ff whereas in the Fontana it's marked Largo and pesante. There is no ff marking in the Fontana edition, although it is assumed since there is no diminuendo from the ff marking in measure 37.

When I asked my teacher about this, she said that she requires that her students play it as written in the Fontana edition, since that's the edition her students seem to be using. I suppose some could argue that it's Fontana's addition, not Chopin's; yet "almost everyone" chooses to play everything else that Fontana added to this version of the score but not the dynamics and tempo of these two measures.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
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Estonia 190 in satin ebony

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#1391786 - 03/08/10 11:38 PM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: cast12]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17666
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: cast12


What fingering do you guys use for the arpeggios I circled in red?

I'm using 5,3,2,1,2,4. Even though I have large hands, I'm having trouble playing these arpeggios quickly. Should I try 5,2,1,2,1,2? Or would that fingering slow me down?


I use 5, 2, 1, 2, 1, 4 on the B so that the hand is prepared for the octave arpeggio beginning on A with 5.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190 in satin ebony

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#1391828 - 03/09/10 01:31 AM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: Brandon_W_T]
zxcjason Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 166
Loc: Vancouver, BC
Originally Posted By: Brandon_W_T
I use 5-3-1-3 (crossover)-1-3

I have a tendency to use 5-3-1-3-1-3. It just sort of happens naturally when I play it.


I use 5-3-1-2-1-3, just kinda happened naturally too

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#1391845 - 03/09/10 02:10 AM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: BruceD]
zxcjason Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 166
Loc: Vancouver, BC
Originally Posted By: BruceD

These two measures are marked both Lento and pesante, yet I don't think I have ever heard a performance where those indications are strictly observed. In other words, following Fontana's interpolations, those two measures are still at ff and should swell to even louder in the middle of measure 41, and both measures 41 and 42 should be slower than the "B" section (moderato cantabile) beginning at measure 43.


I almost never keep measure 42 at ff. Measure 41 and 42 are transitions from the choatic to the poetic. If you play 42 at ff, how will you play measure 43? The transition will probably sound very abrupt.

Perhaps we should ask why Chopin sticks two measures of simple appregios there? Isn't that a bit repetitive and potentially dry? What I have experimented is to play only one measure of appregio, and what I found was that the transition to the slow portion seems to be too fast, that I don't feel ready for it. What it means is that measure 42 is to get me ready for the cantible quality for measure 43, and measure 41 is to ease out the thunderstorm from the end of the first section. What I end up playing is something very similar to Maurice Hinson suggested in your post.

Also, for measure 41, you don't necessarily need to play louder to achieve a crescendo. As the pedal is depressed, the sound gets fuller and louder anyways. For me I plays the notes a bit softer but faster when ascending the appregio in 41, then slightly slow down and decreascendo quickly into measure 42. For 42 I try to create a bell like tone in a ethereal background to prepare for measure 43.

I'd suggest some experimentations on these 2 measures, you can probably take some more liberty in playing them and don't have to follow strictly with the score and notation

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#1392019 - 03/09/10 09:25 AM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: jazzyprof]
ab-ster Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/04/08
Posts: 152
Loc: Seattle
Originally Posted By: jazzyprof
I'm glad to hear someone else had difficulty with measures 7-8!

And now the part where the accents shift from #1 to #5. This shift is only in the Fontana version and starts from measure 17:

I learnt a trick to bring out the accent on the pinky:

Practice each quadruplet of 16th notes as a chord, and for each chord strike the accented note four times (loudly) while holding down the other notes. Move on to the next quadruplet.

Then practice the quadruplets as written while listening for the melody in the pinky.


Thanks Jazzyprof, this helped me started. As I was trying this out last night, I learned the trick (I think). I was able to bring out the pinky accents by doing outward hand motion at every start of quadruplets.

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#1392047 - 03/09/10 09:51 AM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: ab-ster]
Hedgeman26 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 72
Loc: Houston, TX
I agree with BruceD on the 5,2,1,2,1,4...as you get up to speed it really helps to have your hand set up properly for the following arpeggios. I know a lot of people avoid using their 4th finger like the plague due to its inherent weakness, but it really will provide for the easiest transitions in my mind. There are a few other spots (one being the measures 7,8 arpeggios in LH I believe and a few others...will need to refer to my score when I get home) where I tried to incorporate another "more comfortable" fingering...but once again, I was forced to get out of that habit and embrace my 4th finger as I got faster. Eventually, it became very natural and any other fingering would seem odd and counterproductive.

Brandon, your fingering og 5,3,1,3 is interesting...perhaps it works well for you but I was playing that measure on my desk a second ago and it really contorts my hand into a very awkward position. I could see it perhaps being ok at slower speeds, but I fear that as you get it to performnace speed (or even 90% speed), that fingering might become quite a hinderance. This is purely my opinion based on my past experiments with various fingerings, but you may want to consider having a "backup" fingering in case that one does not pan out. THere just seems to be very little flexibility and reach when crossing my third finger over my thumb (especially at fast speeds)...would definitely trip me up. But we are all different...just wanted to share my thoughts, not judging.

David
_________________________
Currently learning/playing select pieces from Chopin, Liszt, Beethoven, and Kapustin

What use is knowledge if there is no understanding? (Stobaeus)

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#1392207 - 03/09/10 01:38 PM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: jazzyprof]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6075
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
Originally Posted By: jazzyprof


And now the part where the accents shift from #1 to #5. This shift is only in the Fontana version and starts from measure 17:



I actually have it in my Dover edition too...
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Music is my best friend.


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#1392246 - 03/09/10 02:14 PM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: jazzyprof]
gnarlyknuckles Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/03/10
Posts: 6
Loc: Ohio
Can't believe you have this wonderful forum topic! Great! I'm 58 and one of the main items on my "Bucket list" is to conquer Fantasie Impromptu! When I was in 11th grade this was my competition piece, but my technique had never risen to the level of my ability to sight read & memorize. With only "a page" to go, the piece ran away from me; my fingers couldn't keep up; it was as if I heard a demonic laugh! All of a sudden I stopped, sat silent, panicked and could not remember how to get back into it. I closed the keyboard, stood up, walked off the stage, and never again returned to competitive piano--I went on to the S&G, Beetles, James Taylor, etc., etc.

But some day ....!

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#1392530 - 03/09/10 10:47 PM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: gnarlyknuckles]
cast12 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/14/09
Posts: 219


So does anyone not perform a crossover for these arpeggios?

I still can't decide to which fingering I should commit. confused

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#1392535 - 03/09/10 11:01 PM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: cast12]
jazzyprof Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/04
Posts: 2598
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
I can't imagine playing that arpeggio at speed without crossover (and without injury!) unless you have very long fingers. Try the various fingerings at the fastest speed you can muster and see which one works best for you...without undue stretching.
_________________________
"Playing the piano is my greatest joy...period."......JP

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#1392559 - 03/09/10 11:51 PM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: cast12]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6075
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
Originally Posted By: cast12


So does anyone not perform a crossover for these arpeggios?

I still can't decide to which fingering I should commit. confused


I think Bruce's suggestion is good. I had the same apart from the last one. 4 is better than 2 or 3 (for the reasons he mentions).
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Music is my best friend.


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#1392570 - 03/10/10 12:18 AM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: cast12]
ab-ster Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/04/08
Posts: 152
Loc: Seattle
Originally Posted By: cast12


What fingering do you guys use for the arpeggios I circled in red?

I'm using 5,3,2,1,2,4. Even though I have large hands, I'm having trouble playing these arpeggios quickly. Should I try 5,2,1,2,1,2? Or would that fingering slow me down?


I'm using 5,3,2,1,2,3. I'm not comfortable switching the last note to 4. The transition from 3 to 5 for the first note in the next measure is very natural for me.

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#1392618 - 03/10/10 02:04 AM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: ab-ster]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17666
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: ab-ster
[...]I'm using 5,3,2,1,2,3. I'm not comfortable switching the last note to 4. The transition from 3 to 5 for the first note in the next measure is very natural for me.


Comfort, i.e. lack of tension, should be an important factor in the choice of fingering, therefor using the fingering that is most comfortable at speed is best for each of us.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190 in satin ebony

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#1392619 - 03/10/10 02:10 AM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: BruceD]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6075
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
Sure. I prefer 5-2 instead of 5-3 because I have small hands for example....
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#1394188 - 03/12/10 04:38 AM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: jazzyprof]
ch0ndawg Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 7
Hi! I've just barely joined the forums.

This piece was one of those that have always amazed me... how the heck to people play it? I've played on and off over the years, since I was a kid, so I guess I don't technically qualify as an "adult beginner" but I do like the concept of piano study groups! I never had such a luxury back when I was learning with a teacher... the only time I'd even see the other students was watching them perform at recitals.

Anyway, after many years of false starts and sort of "messing" around with this piece, in this latest surge of interest in piano (since the new year), I told myself that this time I am going to learn this right once and for all (Well, even so, currently it has taken kind of a back seat to Etude Op. 10 No. 3, my main project piece).

Progress has been decent, however, and I do have the piece fully memorized and can play it blazingly fast hands separately. Putting the hands together is another matter entirely... It's going at about 1/4 my hands-separate speed right now... I don't think it's just a simple matter of letting them play independently, or correctly mastering the 3-4 rhythm, which I do have down (after quite a bit of practicing, of course). Something about the coordination really does seem to take time, for me at least.

I think the debate about this was on a different thread, but the fingering I use for bars 7-8 is given by Beethoven smile ... the same fingering I use for the similar passage in the Moonlight Sonata 3rd Mvt.: 1242 1313 2412 4214 1243 , which I can play decently, although it does feel like I have to expend a little bit more effort to keep this at the speed of the surrounding measures. I also like Klindworth's "addition" in the cantabile section, and thanks to you guys, I finally managed to hear it in action (nobody plays it in the recordings I have).

Anyway, count me in; I look forward to seeing your insights on the piece, and hopefully will be able to provide some of my own wink
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Polonaises Op. 40

Bach:
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#1394267 - 03/12/10 09:42 AM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: cast12]
Laramie Hartmann Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/18/09
Posts: 7
I use 5-3-2-1-2-4 which is the fingering indicated in my Carl Fischer edition.

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#1395712 - 03/14/10 06:07 PM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: Laramie Hartmann]
Pedies Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/13/10
Posts: 155
I'm enjoying learning this piece.

As I begin to bring it up to speed, it becomes very enjoyable to play and listen to at the same time.

Not to derail the thread, but does anybody working on this piece have any suggestions for other pieces to work on concomitantly?

Is there anything else out there like this piece that has a similar "magic" if you will when played convincingly at speed. What I mean by this is that in reading about this piece, there can be certain effects to the listener that make the music sound even fuller and faster than it is actually being played (i.e. a Moire pattern).

I was considering working on the Black Key Etude as another work but would love to know what others are doing or considering working on that may be similar to the Fantaisie Impromptu.

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#1395776 - 03/14/10 07:52 PM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: Pedies]
pianogal37 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/25/09
Posts: 214
I don't use a crossover fingering, but I do have long fingers.
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Bach French Suites No. 6, Allemande and Gigue, Beethoven's Pathetique, Chopin Nocturne 72/1, Fantaisie-Impromptu, Debussy's First Arabesque, Takacs Toccata Op 54, Rachmaninoff Etude-Tableau 33/8.

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#1395783 - 03/14/10 07:59 PM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: pianogal37]
Batuhan Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/21/09
Posts: 860
Loc: Istanbul
Most beautiful piano composition in history i will learn soon.
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Published:
Waltz Op. 36 No. 1 in G-flat major,
2 Preludes, Op. 12 in D-flat major.

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#1397116 - 03/16/10 04:58 PM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: Batuhan]
ab-ster Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/04/08
Posts: 152
Loc: Seattle
I'm making good progress on this piece. I can now play it fairly smoothly with the intended speed, BUT, only after at least 15 minutes of rigorous warm ups.

Is it possible to play this piece from cold start reasonably well?

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#1397620 - 03/17/10 09:45 AM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: ab-ster]
cast12 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/14/09
Posts: 219
What fingering do you guys use for the right hand on the seventh measure on the seventh page of this score: http://imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/1/....66_1200dpi.pdf ?

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#1397635 - 03/17/10 10:02 AM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: cast12]
Hedgeman26 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 72
Loc: Houston, TX
Hey ab-ster, actually I only play this piece cold now...really useful for recital preperation. I will be doing stuff around the house and then rush to the piano and start playing, and if I stumble a bit (thankfully rare now) I play through it and typically can recover rather quickly and without too much notice (of course I then go back and drill the parts that trip me up). I think it is essential to practice it this way, because it will really alleviate your nerves and you will become confident and experienced under these "cold" types of conditions. Not many pieces are as daunting as FI right out of the gate especially when playing cold...so I feel your concern! Liebestruam #3 for example is a completely different beast and I would choose to play "cold" over FI any day of the week, even though Liebestraum is technically and musically harder. I have found though, once I really nailed down the rhythym, my stumbles were greatly reduced and almost nonexistent. Hardest part really is not to go too fast and rush things...making this piece suspenseful and musical was for me the hardest part.

David
_________________________
Currently learning/playing select pieces from Chopin, Liszt, Beethoven, and Kapustin

What use is knowledge if there is no understanding? (Stobaeus)

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#1397744 - 03/17/10 12:12 PM Re: Fantaisie Impromptu Study Group [Re: Hedgeman26]
ab-ster Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/04/08
Posts: 152
Loc: Seattle
Hedgeman26: thanks for your encouraging comment. I'm eager to get to that point. At least I know there's hope =)

cast12: I use 3251 4351 3251 4351

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