To Larry and Silverwood...since you are mentioning your bass string of choice I don't think Gregor would mind:

In manufacturing our bass strings I use the same German steel and copper material as Gregor Heller's and we are here on this side of 'the pond'. Our quality is second to none here in North America (and we hold our own to Hellerbass too .

Gregor and his father go back a decade or two with myself and my
father. We have always held a great working friendship together. I visited Gregor at his shop last September and discovered he and I were at the same Hoffenheim Bundesliga soccer match that week at the Rhein-Neckar stadium just next to Sinsheim (he has season seats that bugger). What a game, they have fences running up the aisles of the seats to seperate the fans from the visiting team to the rest of the home crowd. They even have entirely seperate parking and entrances they have to abide by when coming to the game - but I digress.

Try your next set with J.D. Grandt. You'll be pleased that you did and you'll save a few pennies without sacrificing the quality or accuracy.

Ahh, Larry, I forgot to mention -- very important and likely obvious and therefore no one mentioned it....
A bass string wound one way AND twisted the wrong way, will never sound as good as a bass string wound one way AND twisted the right way.
Everyone knows when/if twists are required (depending on manufacturer) they need to be made in the same direction as the winding, right(?).

(Thought I'd mention it since everyone from non-techs, amateur techs to professional techs read through these posts).

So, John, scroll back to page one... Can you answer our questions and thoughts about the bass strings?

.....and so on....

Do you really want to know what I think of the question going to the start of this thread???

I believe it was humour to start the thread Mr. Schienke, not entirely sure of that though.....

Hmmm
In all honesty, I think the effects that are audible to the human ear rely more heavily on a very well made string than anything else. The comparison whether it is produced and wound left or right will likely never be empirically tried and tested (if there is even a case for it at all).

I think before getting in this deep (because who knows, maybe one day the answer to this thread will be discovered as plain as day), a better place to start is regarding hexagonal steel vs round steel in the bass. Generally, not many techs think very highly of hexagonal wire in wound strings. But then, why is it that a few high end piano makers use this hex wire in their new productions and have fantastic results?
I will admit something here, the open and honest guy that I am.....
I still remember as a late teen, early adult (whichever) the first time I came across one of these high end pianos and saw a full set of 'univerals' on it. I thought to myself "boy, what kinda jerk tech got their hands to this?" My father quickly shut me up, in good German fashion, and told me how little I knew and I was no where ready to go out on my own yet!

So Jerry to answer your question....
No, there shouldn't be a difference.
Whomever would like to try this however, I would be game to make the strings:
Let's make 3 bichord notes (6 strings).
One bichord will consist of both bichord strings spun the same direction (clockwise).
One bichord will consist of both bichord strings spun the other direction (counter-clockwise).
The third bichord will consist of each string being spun opposite directions of each other.

Who wants to give it a try? I'll supply the strings.

Larry,
Could not test the theory as all strings were preselected for the class.
However, Del did admit that he had no idea and suggested that It would be a great research project for anyone that was curious.

Gene,

Thank You.

Del gives a great class, wish I was there.

I don't have any idea either. Del is right, only one way to know.
John (Grant) had the same suggestion.

I guess no one reads Plato ... I see my OT thread is looked at a lot, but, no responses.

Larry

I will happily try them in a side-by-side comparison on my string test fixture.

I can forward the appropriate string specifications when I return from the trip I am on. I should be back in the U.S. by the April 12th.

ddf

I read Plato a Lonnnggg time ago. Now if you want to talk more recent philosophers, like maybe Tom Clancy.......

But for a bichord with opposing wound strings, should the left wound string really be on the left or the right? After all, a ship with inboard turning propellers handles very differently that one with outboard turning propellers.

But what if the left-wound strings were wound by a right-handed person and the right-wound....oh never mind.

"....oh never mind."

Exactly!

Sounds good. I'll be at the Nashville PTG and back on the 12th as well.

Jeff, presumably this means that the inside wrap is the shorter one, and the outside wrap starts closer to the hitch pin and agraffe? Certainly, on all monochords that I've seen, the visible (outer) wrap is all in one direction.

If indeed they are wound in opposite directions, in which direction should one twist the string when mounting it? The twist would tighten the one wrap but loosen the other one...

I only can say that double wound are not to be turned on themselves, because one winding is one direction while the other goes on reverse (due to the winding process, anyway for most bas string makers)

German Steinway bass strings are also wounded the other way than most others (the reason escapes me) !

Hi John!

I´m registered here at these forum since a half year now and I´m only a silent reader from time to time.
But I´ve read some comments from mine here in these thread ( feng shui, wet towel etc. ) and decided to join the forum for more than only reading ( from time to time ).

John ... the soccer game was great - you´re right ... what means "bugger" by the way

Back to topic ... I do not believe in different sounds on different winding directions. But I´m curious to any news about that testing you suggested.

I´ll join the Las Vegas convention ( with a booth, too ) in June and may be we can discuss that issue there ... also we have to discuss about your comment to save some money through not ordering bass strings in the old part of the world

Cheers
Gregor

Mr. Heller:

Welcome Aboard!

Hey Gregor!

Good to see you here! Glad you could make it....



I was wondering if you would notice this part. Reads like a good time will be happening in Las Vegas.....

Hi Gregor, wie gehts? Its great for you to join in here!



bugger = I am jealous of you.

I will be quite surprised if opposite wound strings create a different or improved sound. BUT, that topic made me think of something else!! I will tell you in private at Las Vegas. Maybe I am on to something very special!!



uh-oh

I will send you a PM over the weekend. We'll have to make sure we know where to catch the World Cup games while in Vegas.

I guess that what would need for comparison purpose is a high speed camera, and a consistent goodie to excite the strings, if not the results would be very difficult to find.

I believe that timing the phase moves may help to understand if a difference lies and where. There is some polarisation due to the bridge pins, probably that a mix between right and left wounded wire sill be lees homogeneous in the phase (coupling) (and that nobody will hear a difference)

I have seen movies of a bridge at C64 there : http://real.uwaterloo.ca/~sbirkett/high%20speed%20imaging.htm

You have also bass stings there.

I believe that what we are after is the utmost conservation of energy within the strings. A too easy coupling would transfer at a higher rate in the soundboard, making a less interesting tone.
But if the bass strings have problems to couple, side effects may occur as unwanted noises or beats...

Because of the bridge pins direction, and the move of the soundboard which is certainly not vertical, there is probably an effect in regard to the winding direction.

looking at the way the 3 strings move, seem to me that the 2 left strings always couple and move little while the right string seem to be more free , and dont act with the others separately, but always as a whole. What should be very interesting is to hear the unison, and make similar experiences with different unisons i.e. tight (close), coupled on the outer strings (smiley unisons) or coupled on one side only, like it seem to be the case there.

This, together with direct listening, could give some informations.

I have no idea on the difficulty to setup those high speed cameras, but I wonder if that is not easier to do those days than it was a few years ago.

PS : hexagonal core bass strings have an abrupt tone, to me. (Grotrian Steinweg) more hard.

Aging not better than others (probably less)

My dear Mr. Buck
In the future, please refrain from sending PMs to me. I much prefer that your grievances towards me be aired here in this public forum.
As a reminder, a forum is defined as: "a public meeting place for open discussion or expression of ideas". This means that everyone need not agree with one another or that any member shall not have "firm" ideas concerning any given subject.
As to obscured identities in this forum, take a good look around. Many members here have chosen to remain anonymous, for one reason or another. Mainly because it is not essential, especially if one's veracity and credibility are accepted and respected.

regards,

Hi Isaac!

Nice to meet you here - how small the piano world is!

My further thoughts on this:

The onliest place where there could be an influence in sound regarding the direction of the winding is where the hammer hits the string.

e.g. the hammer is 10 degrees left pitched, the bass strings are 20 degrees to the left. On left-wound strings the copper is 45 degrees left.

That means a 55 degree difference between copper and hammer on impact.
But on right-wound strings the difference would only be 35 degrees.

This is the onliest influence which is possible. May be more longitudonal power ?

But I do not know if this will make a difference in sound.

About 5% of my costumers want their strings right-wound.


Best regards
Gregor

P.S.: Above degrees are only guessed during having lunch

Hi Gregor, thanks for writing there !

Of course it would make a difference in sound (I did not think of that aspect indeed - but seem to me that the polarization at the bridge pin is real)

Will it be noticeable just with an experimental setup ? I am far from sure.

I lately experiment rubbing a little colophon on the plain wire just at the striking point and it makes an audible difference.

I sure wish to see more of those high speed camera movies, in a more scientific context than above.

Well you would like to have this play out in public? Ok then:

What kind of veracity, credibility or respectability are you entitled to if we do not know who you are?

Anonymity is fine for the people who know you. Most of us do not know who you are.

For myself, I know that I give more credibility and respect to the members who are not afraid of identifying themselves.

For the ones who do not have enough self-respect to identify themselves, I don’t pay them much time, simply because I feel they have something to hide. Why else would a person choose to be anonymous? I am sure there are others here of the same opinion, or maybe not.

Industry professionals on this forum are required to post under their real name or business title. This is just professional conduct.

First off, how did the lunch taste? Second, were you eating it with your left hand or right hand?