Do BASS Strings wound to the RIGHT sound better than BASS strings wound to the LEFT ??

Why is that?

They probably do, but only if they are wound north of the equator.

They only sound better if the loop is wound the opposite way.

Is this a tentative agreement that they do?

Opposite the loop winding, OK, have to test that one ... good

North/South of the equator ... that does affect the direction of water as it flows down a drain etc..

Do BASS Strings wound to the RIGHT sound better than BASS strings wound to the LEFT ??
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Looking at the string from tuning pin or hitch pin end?

Del Fandrich is bringing his new adjustable porta piano jig thing that is made for testing bass strings to his seminar this saturday. I will bring this up to him and have a look at our selection of wound strings available for testing.

Gene,

That is a fabulous offer. Thank You.

Del may factor in an impedance quotient of some kind before he gives an answer.

Tuning pin or hitch pin end ? Wouldn't it be the same regardless of which end you look from ??

Ah, I am just going to leave this one for sure......too much potential.....sorry Larry...

Man, and I thought that I had too much time on my hands......

Del may factor in an impedance quotient of some kind before he gives an answer.

Tuning pin or hitch pin end ? Wouldn't it be the same regardless of which end you look from ??
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So many people are using string impedance - never tried it myself but have seen it graphed out in the shop that I visit.
All to do with stiffness - cannot see it changing from left to right winding.

If you wind from the tuning pin to the right you need to wind from the hitch to the left to get symmetry - it looks the same direction at both ends because you turn your head or the string - joking but valid - the point was that it should not matter but as you have raised the issue, you or someone thinks there is a difference in tone. Maybe Del can shed some light on it - will let you know.

Uh, I was joking, but who knows? The ones I have looked at have all been opposite.

Question posed to a bass string maker this morning:

Does it make a difference which way the copper is wound on the core, to the left or to the right? Does it make a difference in the tone?

Answer:

Absolutely No !

But if someone is believing in water diviners, feng shui and so on.... maybe there is a difference ;-)

Maybe some are left handed because the loop was put on the wrong end. (Let's see if I get any bites...)

A little more from the experts:

I thought the answer was no. But I was thinking of why the string is always tied to the right on the plate pin( hitch pin) and then tied to the left on the tuning pin.
I always see the copper wound to the right, so I was wondering. I think too much!

Response:
One thing is wrong on your statement : The string is tied to the right anyway ... on both sides the same : on the hitch pin side and also on the tuning pin side ... both to the right.

It´s like a wet towel : one one side you must twist it to the right ... and on the other side .. you must also twist to the right to get the water out of him.


The winding direction depends only on the motor of the winding machine ... nothing else.

Only Steinway winding machines turn the strings on the other direction than all the others .. funny .. but no changes in sound.

I have sent the participants in this idea some interesting facts on Bass strings.

"UprightTooner" no pm's?

They are wound that way as most winders are right handed. Left handed winders sometimes go the other way (Ari Isaac winds both ways, for example)

sj

Exactly

No PM's. I want to avoid gossip.

I would be willing to take a chance with someone, like you, that uses the phrase "slice of the human condition" to not gossip. But why not just post those facts here? If there is a very good reason not to I can contact your email.

No Gossip ....

Just a preference .....

Been thinking about this... For all the good it did me...

I've often wondered why say, with a 9' Bosendorfer for example, the wrappings are reverse of American wrappings. They do seem to have a better sound on that particular model that something similar in an American made piano has when comparing tonal characteristics. But then again, it could be better voicing or better quality hammers too I suppose? I say and wonder this aloud because, a few times, I have had the lower bass strings break on one of my concert Bosendorfers during tuning or playing. I needed replacements fast because they were way down low. Ordering a complete new set of replacements as "just in case wires" is not plausible as our cost on something like that is astronomical. I tied a knot but, the string core was to big to raise it up to pitch without re-breaking the wire again and again... I sent off to Schaff for a duplicate wire sending in the old wire. The new wire was of course, wrapped in the opposite direction as the original. It sounded pretty darn good too however, it did not sound as good as the original but, I do not know why... Thus the reason for saying "Been thinking about this... For all the good it did me..."

Addendum: I wonder if they are wrapped tighter?

Interesting observation Jerry about the tightness of the wrap ...

I honestly don't know that answer BUT, I am using my first set of Heller Bass Strings from Germany and they are very nice!! Clean ... Windings end right where they should ..

I did re-scale the piano just a tad ...

They did a very nice job ... Great sound !!

It is my understanding that Heller makes the bass strings for Bosie. Someone correct me if I am mistaken on that one.

Larry,
Correct on the Bosie thing I believe.
I am on my 3rd or 4th set of strings from HellerBass and I would not go anywhere else now.


Regarding this statement, Jeff, I have been trying to pm you for almost a year. I have seen you make the statement that you pm others but will not accept pm’s yourself.
It is unfortunate to read that you have a pre-conceived notion of what pm’s might contain, that being gossip. I guess my pm to you will have to be your loss then.

Dan:

On occasion I will briefly turn on my PMs in order to PM an email address to someone. Usually this is to exchange large amounts of numerical data in order to not clog this Forum.

If you have something to say to me, I would really prefer you say it so everyone knows what is being said. But if you don't want everyone to know what you say, then I don't want to know either.

[Edit:] You can look at it this way, Dan. An alcoholic friend may decide not to go to a sports bar to watch a game with you, not because of what you might do, but because of what he might do. It is best if I just talk about pianos.

Getting it yet? Doesn’t matter for me either way, but if you are here to learn about pianos, I will leave the decision up to you.

Ships that have two propellers always have them turn in opposite directions so that the ship will stay on course better. Bichords on a piano should be left and right handed for the same reason; they will stay in tune longer.

And monochords should be made like modern crane cables are – non-rotational. The inside wrap should be in a direction opposite from the outside wrap.

This also explains why wound trichords fell out of favor. When restringing these left wound, right wound and non-rotational wound strings should be specified. (You know, the left goes on the left…)

If you are saying that you have a large amount of numerical data that has to do with pianos, but do not want others to know that you are giving it to me, then no thanks.

If you mean something else, then SPEAK PLAINLY.

Bosendorfer still winds their bass strings in house to their specific design.

Thanks George for the clarity. Haven't seen you around for a while...hope all is well with you.

Many here have already received the data from me a long time back.
Too many conditions attached with attempting to communicate with you directly. Small potatoes for me Jeff, when, and if you are interested, then you will make arrangements for that.

Regarding your comments about bass string making, perhaps you would be willing to contact the experts who make them already and share your instructions with them.

Good luck with all of this anyways.

Thanks for the suggestion, Dan. I plan on contacting the string makers in, umm, 13 days.

And when you are polishing key pins you should polish sharp key pins in a counterclockwise motion and naturals in a clockwise motion! Right!?

To Larry and Silverwood...since you are mentioning your bass string of choice I don't think Gregor would mind:

In manufacturing our bass strings I use the same German steel and copper material as Gregor Heller's and we are here on this side of 'the pond'. Our quality is second to none here in North America (and we hold our own to Hellerbass too .

Gregor and his father go back a decade or two with myself and my
father. We have always held a great working friendship together. I visited Gregor at his shop last September and discovered he and I were at the same Hoffenheim Bundesliga soccer match that week at the Rhein-Neckar stadium just next to Sinsheim (he has season seats that bugger). What a game, they have fences running up the aisles of the seats to seperate the fans from the visiting team to the rest of the home crowd. They even have entirely seperate parking and entrances they have to abide by when coming to the game - but I digress.

Try your next set with J.D. Grandt. You'll be pleased that you did and you'll save a few pennies without sacrificing the quality or accuracy.

Ahh, Larry, I forgot to mention -- very important and likely obvious and therefore no one mentioned it....
A bass string wound one way AND twisted the wrong way, will never sound as good as a bass string wound one way AND twisted the right way.
Everyone knows when/if twists are required (depending on manufacturer) they need to be made in the same direction as the winding, right(?).

(Thought I'd mention it since everyone from non-techs, amateur techs to professional techs read through these posts).

So, John, scroll back to page one... Can you answer our questions and thoughts about the bass strings?

.....and so on....

Do you really want to know what I think of the question going to the start of this thread???

I believe it was humour to start the thread Mr. Schienke, not entirely sure of that though.....

Hmmm
In all honesty, I think the effects that are audible to the human ear rely more heavily on a very well made string than anything else. The comparison whether it is produced and wound left or right will likely never be empirically tried and tested (if there is even a case for it at all).

I think before getting in this deep (because who knows, maybe one day the answer to this thread will be discovered as plain as day), a better place to start is regarding hexagonal steel vs round steel in the bass. Generally, not many techs think very highly of hexagonal wire in wound strings. But then, why is it that a few high end piano makers use this hex wire in their new productions and have fantastic results?
I will admit something here, the open and honest guy that I am.....
I still remember as a late teen, early adult (whichever) the first time I came across one of these high end pianos and saw a full set of 'univerals' on it. I thought to myself "boy, what kinda jerk tech got their hands to this?" My father quickly shut me up, in good German fashion, and told me how little I knew and I was no where ready to go out on my own yet!

So Jerry to answer your question....
No, there shouldn't be a difference.
Whomever would like to try this however, I would be game to make the strings:
Let's make 3 bichord notes (6 strings).
One bichord will consist of both bichord strings spun the same direction (clockwise).
One bichord will consist of both bichord strings spun the other direction (counter-clockwise).
The third bichord will consist of each string being spun opposite directions of each other.

Who wants to give it a try? I'll supply the strings.

Larry,
Could not test the theory as all strings were preselected for the class.
However, Del did admit that he had no idea and suggested that It would be a great research project for anyone that was curious.

Gene,

Thank You.

Del gives a great class, wish I was there.

I don't have any idea either. Del is right, only one way to know.
John (Grant) had the same suggestion.

I guess no one reads Plato ... I see my OT thread is looked at a lot, but, no responses.

Larry

I will happily try them in a side-by-side comparison on my string test fixture.

I can forward the appropriate string specifications when I return from the trip I am on. I should be back in the U.S. by the April 12th.

ddf

I read Plato a Lonnnggg time ago. Now if you want to talk more recent philosophers, like maybe Tom Clancy.......

But for a bichord with opposing wound strings, should the left wound string really be on the left or the right? After all, a ship with inboard turning propellers handles very differently that one with outboard turning propellers.

But what if the left-wound strings were wound by a right-handed person and the right-wound....oh never mind.

"....oh never mind."

Exactly!

Sounds good. I'll be at the Nashville PTG and back on the 12th as well.

Jeff, presumably this means that the inside wrap is the shorter one, and the outside wrap starts closer to the hitch pin and agraffe? Certainly, on all monochords that I've seen, the visible (outer) wrap is all in one direction.

If indeed they are wound in opposite directions, in which direction should one twist the string when mounting it? The twist would tighten the one wrap but loosen the other one...

I only can say that double wound are not to be turned on themselves, because one winding is one direction while the other goes on reverse (due to the winding process, anyway for most bas string makers)

German Steinway bass strings are also wounded the other way than most others (the reason escapes me) !

Hi John!

I´m registered here at these forum since a half year now and I´m only a silent reader from time to time.
But I´ve read some comments from mine here in these thread ( feng shui, wet towel etc. ) and decided to join the forum for more than only reading ( from time to time ).

John ... the soccer game was great - you´re right ... what means "bugger" by the way

Back to topic ... I do not believe in different sounds on different winding directions. But I´m curious to any news about that testing you suggested.

I´ll join the Las Vegas convention ( with a booth, too ) in June and may be we can discuss that issue there ... also we have to discuss about your comment to save some money through not ordering bass strings in the old part of the world

Cheers
Gregor

Mr. Heller:

Welcome Aboard!

Hey Gregor!

Good to see you here! Glad you could make it....



I was wondering if you would notice this part. Reads like a good time will be happening in Las Vegas.....

Hi Gregor, wie gehts? Its great for you to join in here!



bugger = I am jealous of you.

I will be quite surprised if opposite wound strings create a different or improved sound. BUT, that topic made me think of something else!! I will tell you in private at Las Vegas. Maybe I am on to something very special!!



uh-oh

I will send you a PM over the weekend. We'll have to make sure we know where to catch the World Cup games while in Vegas.

I guess that what would need for comparison purpose is a high speed camera, and a consistent goodie to excite the strings, if not the results would be very difficult to find.

I believe that timing the phase moves may help to understand if a difference lies and where. There is some polarisation due to the bridge pins, probably that a mix between right and left wounded wire sill be lees homogeneous in the phase (coupling) (and that nobody will hear a difference)

I have seen movies of a bridge at C64 there : http://real.uwaterloo.ca/~sbirkett/high%20speed%20imaging.htm

You have also bass stings there.

I believe that what we are after is the utmost conservation of energy within the strings. A too easy coupling would transfer at a higher rate in the soundboard, making a less interesting tone.
But if the bass strings have problems to couple, side effects may occur as unwanted noises or beats...

Because of the bridge pins direction, and the move of the soundboard which is certainly not vertical, there is probably an effect in regard to the winding direction.

looking at the way the 3 strings move, seem to me that the 2 left strings always couple and move little while the right string seem to be more free , and dont act with the others separately, but always as a whole. What should be very interesting is to hear the unison, and make similar experiences with different unisons i.e. tight (close), coupled on the outer strings (smiley unisons) or coupled on one side only, like it seem to be the case there.

This, together with direct listening, could give some informations.

I have no idea on the difficulty to setup those high speed cameras, but I wonder if that is not easier to do those days than it was a few years ago.

PS : hexagonal core bass strings have an abrupt tone, to me. (Grotrian Steinweg) more hard.

Aging not better than others (probably less)

My dear Mr. Buck
In the future, please refrain from sending PMs to me. I much prefer that your grievances towards me be aired here in this public forum.
As a reminder, a forum is defined as: "a public meeting place for open discussion or expression of ideas". This means that everyone need not agree with one another or that any member shall not have "firm" ideas concerning any given subject.
As to obscured identities in this forum, take a good look around. Many members here have chosen to remain anonymous, for one reason or another. Mainly because it is not essential, especially if one's veracity and credibility are accepted and respected.

regards,

Hi Isaac!

Nice to meet you here - how small the piano world is!

My further thoughts on this:

The onliest place where there could be an influence in sound regarding the direction of the winding is where the hammer hits the string.

e.g. the hammer is 10 degrees left pitched, the bass strings are 20 degrees to the left. On left-wound strings the copper is 45 degrees left.

That means a 55 degree difference between copper and hammer on impact.
But on right-wound strings the difference would only be 35 degrees.

This is the onliest influence which is possible. May be more longitudonal power ?

But I do not know if this will make a difference in sound.

About 5% of my costumers want their strings right-wound.


Best regards
Gregor

P.S.: Above degrees are only guessed during having lunch

Hi Gregor, thanks for writing there !

Of course it would make a difference in sound (I did not think of that aspect indeed - but seem to me that the polarization at the bridge pin is real)

Will it be noticeable just with an experimental setup ? I am far from sure.

I lately experiment rubbing a little colophon on the plain wire just at the striking point and it makes an audible difference.

I sure wish to see more of those high speed camera movies, in a more scientific context than above.

Well you would like to have this play out in public? Ok then:

What kind of veracity, credibility or respectability are you entitled to if we do not know who you are?

Anonymity is fine for the people who know you. Most of us do not know who you are.

For myself, I know that I give more credibility and respect to the members who are not afraid of identifying themselves.

For the ones who do not have enough self-respect to identify themselves, I don’t pay them much time, simply because I feel they have something to hide. Why else would a person choose to be anonymous? I am sure there are others here of the same opinion, or maybe not.

Industry professionals on this forum are required to post under their real name or business title. This is just professional conduct.

First off, how did the lunch taste? Second, were you eating it with your left hand or right hand?