Well,

The main reason I think one needs a teacher is to know what mistakes he's making, like wrong fingering, missing tempo, missing notes, etc.
I trully believe the concentrated and dedicated self-student can and will fix this issues by himself. Even by paying attention and not trying to rush things, or by looking at videos, etc.
The other point is that your teacher should be able to pick your repertoire. This point is the least important imho.
I mean, you can find sheets sorted by skill level all over the internet, why won't you just pick a few and start practicing? You can talk with other begginers and see which pieces are more suited to them.
In my opinion the information on how to learn the piano is somewhat "obscure". I think it lacks a good common sense and then it's easier to give the "get a teacher" advice.
Of course this do not apply for the concert pianist wannabe, but for us average adult whose like to play as a hobbye.
The secret of playing piano is really play, play and play?

This becomes a chicken & an egg scenario.

How exactly should one correct a mistake if they are unaware they are making a mistake?

I do agree that playing by ear the teacher is less involved, but with sheets and techniques, a teacher can be important tool.

An adult's time is limited, so it shouldn't be more limited by requiring them to check everything thoroughly.

This topic has been the focus of raging flame wars lively debates on the forum many times. fwiw, here's my quick bottom line: (a) It is in fact possible to teach oneself successfully if your primary goal is to play for your own enjoyment; (b) your odds of self-teaching successfully increase substantially if you have any piano experience in the past or musical training on other instruments; (c) you will make more progress faster if you have a good teacher; (d) but no teacher is better than a bad teacher or a teacher who crushes your soul and saps all your motivation for playing piano by insisting that you follow a certain curriculum that you're not interested in; (e) if you're concerned about mastering the classical curriculum or possessing accurate technique, formal lessons are the way to go; (f) YouTube is a helpful resource, but there are aspects of technique (playing without arm/hand tension, pedaling correctly) that are really hard to pick up over video.

In short, imo it all comes down to what are your goals for piano.

To add to Monica's list, I would say that a great teacher will really motivate you, especially after a few months when it's possible that the inital quick learning phase is over. Another advantage of a good teacher is that they have been exposed to many more pieces of music and can identify pieces that will move you along faster than you might otherwise go.

When I think of the things I have tried to learn over the years--knitting, tennis, piano, flute--I always made the most progress when I had a structured learning program taught by someone who was an expert. After a number of lessons, I can do pretty well practicing by myself, but getting started was much less frustrating with outside help. Not impossible, but less fruustrating for sure.

Nancy

Nancy this is my point. Why the process of learning piano, after this "quick learning phase" has to be so obscure if you learn by yourself? I mean I agree a teacher in this phase is welcome, but after that??

This is the common reason for not having a teacher, but experience has shown me that it is a faulty reason.

Yes, it is possible to "teach oneself successfully if your primary goal is to play for your own enjoyment", but you have no guarantee whatsoever that you will be happy with the result, unless you can see into the future and thus know how you will be playing later on.

I have had numerous self-taught people come for lessons, all because they are not happy with their self-taught results.



Which brings us to the crux of the matter:

If you goals never change, then you might be happy with your playing, but you might not (see above).

However, if your goals do change, and you want to go beyond your original goal, you might face formidable obstacles.

For example, I recently had an adult student who was proficient with the guitar, and had self taught himself piano. He had started out just playing for himself, (his original goal) but now he wanted to go beyond that.

His new goal was to take his self-learned skills with the piano, and "fine-tune" them (his words) so he could start playing some piano in bands. He plays guitar in a country/rock band, so he knew about music.

In short, his playing was a nightmare. Most self-taught students I have seen have many gaps in their learning, and numerous problems, but his were global. Absolutely no good technique...both hands were very stiff, and he could not play anything without tension, and thus could not play smoothly, nor at tempo for more than a moment or two.

Also, his fingering was completely out of control...all over the map; for example, a scale was 1-2-3-4-5-4-5-5, with the second 4 crossing over the 5! This was compounded by the fact that guitar fingering is different than piano fingering, which I help my multi-instrumental students overcome.

I could go on and on, but basically he did pretty much everything in a clumsy, inefficient and very limiting manner, all at erratic tempos.

At the second lesson, I explained that there was nothing solid in his playing upon which to build. Instead, he had unproductive and limiting habits that would have to be unlearned, and replaced. I did not mislead him into thinking it would be a quick and easy fix, but rather it would take some time and work.

Although I told him I would be happy to help him through that process, that was not what he wanted to hear, so he left.

It was sad. Judging by his guitar playing he likely could have been a decent player.

But it was as if he had built a house all by himself without any input from professionals, such as carpenters, plumbers, electricians, and thus had chosen improper materials and methods. Yes, he had built a "house", but it could not be inhabited safely, nor improved upon, but rather had to be torn down, and rebuilt anew.

Do yourself a favor...get a highly-recommended teacher, and take a couple of months of lessons. You will start off correctly, and thus avoid much heartache, and you can always drop out of lessons later on and continue by yourself.

Well, I know I need a teacher! No doubt about it. However, I am a teacher, I just don’t teach piano.

Maybe I need to change what I teach!!

Rockett88, I wish you were closer to west central Ga.!

Take care,

Rick

Hi Rick...nice to hear from you!

My teacher helps me bring out the music, even in practice pieces. Normally, I'd just get notes right at tempo, try to do my best musically, then move on. Now, I still do all that but I can't move on until it sounds right musically or she won't pass me. Progress is slower, but so beautiful.

Also, I force myself to practice harder because I don't want to disappoint her at lessons. These I never thought of when I was self-teaching.

As a beginner, I can mostly agree to what has been said in favour of having a teacher.

I have a lesson every two weeks for some months now and most of the time my teacher is correcting me on things like posture and hand movements. The errors mentioned in the OP (wrong fingering, missing tempo and notes etc.) are rather consequences of more basic errors in posture and use of your hands (which you cannot recognize on yourself as a beginner). Maybe there is a possibility that you will correct these errors on your own by chance, if not, you might hit a wall when trying to improve the sound of your playing beyond a certain point.

First of all we must know what we are talking about. If we are talking about plonking away on the piano, no matter how amateurishly and primitively, and being only able to render a recognizable melody, a Christmas carol or a pop song for example, or deceiving yourself that you play real pieces, then indeed, you don’t need a teacher. Play as you like and enjoy it.

But if you want to make music, i.e. to play musically, conveying the musical sense put into the piece by the composer, if you want to play with expression to move the listeners (and the most important listener for you is you yourself), if you want to have artistic satisfaction from what you are playing (whatever genre you choose and however modest is your level), in short, if you want to play seriously, you need a teacher.

Your teacher:
* Teaches you how to play musically, because he/she is a better musician than you.
* Teaches you the correct techniques so that even if you play an easy piece, it does not sound sloppy and amateurish.
* Corrects your errors (with all certainty you will make some and will not be able to see them).
* Prevents you from developing bad habits which hinder your playing (and in extreme cases may lead to injury).
* Shares with you his/her vast knowledge and experience, so you don’t have to re-discover things already discovered decades or centuries ago.
* Provides you with structured and interactive instruction, at every moment taking into consideration your history and current status, something which no book, video course, or any other approach can provide.

Only with a teacher you will be able after some time to say about yourself that you are a pianist, not an advanced one yet, but a pianist nevertheless.


No. The secret is to practice properly.

Can't argue with any of that.




...but I can and would argue with you on that. Of course, you haven't defined what you mean by "pianist," but there are a lot of wonderful players out there who are self-taught, including some folks who make a living out of playing piano and composing music.

Who would those be? Any names? I think they would be quite a rare species, i.e. prodigies, and not at all in the context of average beginners posting on the internet about how to begin.

There is no way I would be where I am without a teacher.

B.T.--the time when I tried to teach myself, I don't even count any longer when people ask me how long I have been playing.

There has not been a single piece that she has not help me with phrasing, helped with fingerings. She taught me how to release tension to avoid fatigue and has found pieces for me I never knew existed.

Years ago, I taught whitewater kayaking, a sport I firmly believe you should not learn on your own. People would come to our program--self taught--and we would reprogram. The roll was of particular angst...give me a beginner and a day and I could get them rolling for life. Give me a self taught paddler and it would take multiple sessions just to get their head to stay down and stop pulling with their paddle!

With the proviso that making a living out of doing something is not equal to being really good in it, I of course agree.

But, with no offense to the OP, if we give advice like that on the forum, it is out of necessity rather generic and assumes a typical situation, not something exceptional.

If the OP were so talented, perhaps those talents could be seen earlier and the OP wouldn't ask questions from the position of an adult beginner.

Also, the OP declares interest in classical music in the profile and I think you have in mind players of other genres.

interesting.

Hmmmm, many of the greatest piano players (currently living or not), athletes, artists, writers, actors, and people in professional business all attend(ed) workshops, seminars, hire(d) coaches, have instructors or receive(d) some mentoring, if even from peers.

Why? Well, for one, the direct assistance and mentoring from others provides us with a set of eyes, ears, hands, and perspective we cannot simply acquire on our own.

Some bloke named David Nevue.

And our own fellow AB-forumite Phillip Mills; he's the guy who was self-taught and went on to win the Jim Brickman contest and even performed a duet with Brickman. He's now released an album and is doing well.

www.phillipmills.com

I'm not convinced this is a useful exercise, though. Yes, of course it is highly unusual for a self-taught person to succeed as a professional musician. I never claimed that it was likely. But I do think that it is possible to gain satisfaction and enjoy piano if you're self-taught, with the caveats that I mentioned in my first post. I also find blanket statements like "it is impossible to be a pianist without taking formal lessons" to be both inaccurate and unnecessarily discouraging.

Because after that phase you're just barely started. It might take awhile to realize that but the further you go the more you realize how little you really know. I don't think you can really appreciate a good teacher until you realizes the depths of your ignorance.

Cuurrently I am without a teacher and find that I tend to hop around from piece to piece rather than concentrating on perfecting one piece.

I miss not having the structure a teacher provided, but for the present, my schedule is such that I cannot set aside a certain time on a certain day for my lessons, so am doing the best I can on my own.

One of my friends has been "self teaching," and is doing remarkably well. She really learns her pieces, and it is a pleasure to hear her play. She gets a CD with the music she is learning, listens to it very carefully, and learns from it as to the proper phrasing, etc..

This works for her, but may not work for everyone.

Gaby Tu

I spent the first 3-4 months without a teacher and it really messed me up in the timing department. There are so many tricks to the trade you miss without a teacher.

If it cost me over 10k in ten years and I can become a grade 10 player I will die a happy man...

I was self-taught and thought I was pretty good. When I found a teacher, she wanted me to go backward for months before I could try my hand at the harder pieces I had played before. Now that I am back I see how empty the experience had been without her.

I never recorded myself then, but I wish I had--I was blindfolded, finger-painting the Mona Lisa, then calling it art. I don't know how my wife could stand it. My sixteenths were uneven, my reading was terrible, and I considered it a victory just to get through a piece with a dozen or so mistakes.

My teacher has added dimensions to my playing that I'm only now starting to appreciate. Anyone who heard me before has said some variation of the same thing, "your fingers were always fast, but with lots of mistakes, and there was always a sense like a caged animal--like you wanted to make music but just didn't know how to". On some level I didn't even realize there was more to it than "put finger where dot indicates".

I know that for what I want to do, I could never have done it on my own--but of course it all depends. If your goal is a Chopin Nocturne, played in a way that you want others to want to hear it, you need not only a teacher, but an *awesome* teacher. At any age.
MM

One really short advice:

If you insist on self teaching, start with music that has the correct fingering indicated, and follow it very strictly. This applies to all circumstances, especially when starting out. Rather than having a teacher I drilled myself for the first 4 months of piano with Hanon then moved on to more serious classical work with suggested fingerings.

One potential downfall would be playing music without suggested fingering, this is where a teacher will step in and recommend how to play a particular passage. But if the music has the fingering, usually its the most ergonomic method to navigate the keyboard. And will build a good habit in future of how to play in the most stress free position.

I think the benefits of having a good teacher are absolutely immense.

They can sort out posture, hand problems and bad technique which can eventually block further progress, and they can do this before the problems become ingrained and much more difficult to put right.

They can provide a sense of direction and motivation, avoiding the common situation of having lots of half learnt pieces, none of which you can play properly.

They can provide a critical ear and reveal things you are doing wrong (things which you aren't even aware of) and, just as importantly, the things you should be doing but aren't.

They can provide guidance to the style in which a piece should be performed (especially important in classical music, and especially if the student has limited familiarity with the repertoire).

They can provide new slants on problems, new ideas, and enable you to discuss matters which are on your mind.

Even pianists who are very accomplished often continue to find great benefit in having a teacher!

Finally, although it sounds trivial - most people starting to learn the piano (or any instrument) cannot actually hear themselves (it is a skill that isn't as easy to acquire as one might think) and so are often blissfully unaware of things that are going wrong.

Welcome to classical piano playing 101 - where you learn how to play other people's music and take it seriously.

Bashing the approach of others will not improve your business...

No guarantee is necessary when you play for your own enjoyment. Why? Because you're playing for your own enjoyment.

I didn't post that to improve my business. Just my opinion.

Taking out the rest and leaving this - guess what - classical isn't necessarily in there.

Cheers