And I'm still waiting for the day when I can afford to travel to Hamburg to select a B....

Seriously though, at the Steinway store where I have my lessons we alternate between a D and a B. It may just be room acoustics but I actually think the B sounds better. I forget what the size on a B is ? 6'7" maybe ? Can someone confirm this ?

last I looked, a "B" was 6' 11".

Jordy - When I was considering trading in my Bos 200 for a 225 I was amazed to find that I got about 78% of what I paid after 5 years, which, by the way, was the only reason I could afford to by the 225. As you know the actual selling price for many brands is much less than the "list price (in the range of 30% less), I believe -- EXCEPT for Steinway, which I don't believe discounts off of their list price. (I think scepticalforumguy explains it very well in his post -- the dealers want you to believe it appreciates, but you need to wait 50 years and include inflation.)

Seilerfan pointed out that it might be unfair to compare a Steinway B to a Bos 25, which "extends toward the concert-size". Then why not spend just a little more money (actual Bos price vs Steinway list) to get the Bos 225?

Unless, of course the Steinway B speaks to you which is what really matters. As Inlanding posted, Steinways don't sound like Bosendorfers.

Since being knowledgeable usually helps, I would make sure you spend time playing both brands (and others) in the same store so you can feel, hear and see the differences. Then pick which sound and feel you love, because they are quite different. If you end up with Steinway, I wouldn't worry about the fact that you paid a premium for the name, which does impact its value retention -- because you love the instrument. (You could find out what you would get on trading in a 5 year old B)

Sorry for so many words. Hope this helps!

You don't think you pay a premium for the Bosendorfer name?

Acording to Fine, the dealer's % profit on a Steinway is much more than on any make including Bosendorfer.

I know someone who bought a Bosie 225 (3 years ago) for $90k. I get tired of hearing how Steinway is the only piano where you pay a significant premium.

Let's do some math:
Bosie - assuming $90k, $/cm = $90k/225 = $400/cm
Steinway - assuming $76k (3 years ago), $/cm = $76k/211 = $360/cm

hmmmmm

Lets say 2 pianos of different manufacturers are comparable in size and performance. One retails for 80K and is sold at retail. The other retails for 120K but is discounted by 33.333% which is.... hey! 80K.

wg73,

Taking the price paid and dividing it by the size of the piano does not equal better value (neither musical nor monetary).
It only indicates price per foo but doesn't say anything about paying a 'premium' for the name.

According to such logic one may deduct that the least expensive piano in the industry is the only one which is not paying a premium for the name while all other instruments are more expensive only due to the premium they receive on the name rather than how costly it is to execute their intended design, the level of parts materials that go into building these pianos, or the quality of workmanship...along with many other variables.


To me, the only meaningful data that you provided indicates that if the average selling price of a Steinway model B 3 years ago was around 65K (assuming a 5%
-10% discount which is rather modest with industry average discounts, and taking as a basis for the calculation the retail price as found in the 2007/2008 Larry fine price supplement of $70,700)...then your friend paid for his Bosie 225 about 38% higher than he would have paid for a Steinway model B.

nm

Only if you make the mistake of buying from a Steinway Gallery. Independent dealers have no reason to do so...in fact I've seen it myself, and it leads one to the conclusion that there is a significant profit "built in" to the S&S MSRP. Again, I know no specific figures. Just some basic logic.



Maybe I don't care for the Bösendorfer sound? If I was going to spend a "little more money", I'd rather find a nicely cared for used D. If I was going to really break the bank, maybe even a Hamburg D!



I've said this above, but investment considerations should be the least of your worries. I am happy for you in that you were able to upgrade considerably trading the old piano in, but do you think you could have gotten 78% of what you paid selling it on your own?

The question was about premium "for the name" which IMO doesn't mean just the price. It means how much of the price paid is for the name which IMO translates into dealer markup from wholesale. This is where Steinway has the biggest markup of all makers as far as I know.

So you're saying Steinway's wholesale prices are lower than Bosendorfer's wholesale prices? I'd like to see the numbers.

I think people just get angry that Steinway doesn't discount 20-30% like most other manufacturers. People want to get "a deal" when buying something this significant.

So my friend got "a deal" because his Bosie 225 was originally listed for $119,000 (!), but they came down to $90,000, a discount of 25%! yea!

But, hey, he still paid $90,000 for a piano of similar quality and size (although slightly longer) to a Steinway B.

But the perception of the Steinway B is that Steinway demands some sort of premium because they don't discount much from MSRP.

I have no numbers, but I have it on good authority that quite the opposite is true.

I must be misunderstanding this statement, so if I am attribute it to a looong day.

To be clear and simple though, a Bosendorfer 225 costs a dealer significantly more than a new Steinway B costs a dealer - significantly more.

I hope that helps,

Rich, that's exactly what I was trying to say.

Because they don't discount much from SMP. Thus the dealer percent markup from wholesale is greater than other pianos.

but isn't that also highly influenced by the exchange rate ? (euros to dollars)

Dealer % markup =(price paid by customer-price paid by dealer)/price paid by dealer

I would assume if the exchange rate affects the price the dealer pays in some consistent and significant way this is passed along to the customer. Fine's SMP is based on dealer wholesale prices at a given point in time, so I don't see where exchange rate comes in.

from Rich:"To be clear and simple though, a Bosendorfer 225 costs a dealer significantly more than a new Steinway B costs a dealer - significantly more."


This is what I was referring to. Isn't that cost to the dealer in part a function of the exchange rate ?

Yes, exchange rate DOES factor into the cost to the dealer. So, when the dollar is weak, that translates into lower margins for German piano dealers (unless they can up the purchase price by the customer).

Both Steinway and Bosie have positioned their products in the low volume, high margin category. How MUCH margin depends on the wholesale cost to the dealers. So, this discussion is meaningless unless some dealers can provide hard numbers for their wholesale cost (which will never happen).

Until then, nobody in this discussion can definitively say Steinway produces higher margins for their dealers.

Exchange rates will always have an effect on prices, particularly on Euro pianos sold over on this side of the pond. I agree that the customer will ultimately end up paying for it. I believe Hamburg S&S B's retail over here for better than 100k, and have for some time. That could be a fairer comparison pricewise with the Bosie 225.

BTW, you have to multiply the result of your formula by 100 to get a percent.

Ori,
the only data we have to go on is the actual price paid since we do not know the dealer's wholesale cost. So you must normalize the price in order to compare apples with apples. This is similar to comparing $/square foot to live in San Francisco versus $/square foot in Dallas. Obviously, the price per square foot to live in SF is higher than Dallas, so in effect you are paying a "premium" to live in SF.

As far as I am concerned your references to "how costly it is to execute their intended design" can be completely negated due to exchange rates between the dollar and the euro.

So the ONLY true way to evaluate the "premium" for a Steinway vs. a Bosie is to know the wholesale cost and calculate the margin relative to the selling price.

Please provide the wholesale cost for a Steinway and a Bosie and we can determine with no question.

data and references please?

Unfortunately, I think wholesale cost is something that most dealers would rather keep under wraps...don't hold your breath.

What does it matter what the dealer margin is? As a buyer, I care only about the price and what I'm getting for it. Bosendorfers cost more to buy than comparable Steinways. That's a fact.

Steinways are better pianos than Bosendorfers and represent better value. That's an opinion.

It helps to think of this issue at 3 levels -- (i) the cost of materials, labor, overhead, etc to produce the piano at the factory (which we can further complicate by layering in promotion/mktg (higher per piano for Steinway than Bos?), (ii) the price the manufacturer is willing to sell to the dealer, which includes profit to the manufacturer, i.e., the wholesale price and, (iii) the retail price (not MSRP) that the dealer actually sells the piano for, including his mark-up or profit.

I think most of us are willing to pay for quality (materials, design and craftsmanship) and would agree that the manufacturer should make a fair profit (which probably increases per piano as quality increases). Hence the great interest in knowing what "ii" is, i.e, the wholesale price, which is somewhat analogous to "dealer invoice" when we buy cars. Purely guessing, I could imagine the Bosendorfer factory having a wholesale price at least $20,000 dollars higher on a 225 than Steinway's B. If true, I'm sure we can debate whether that is a "premium", or based on more expensive materials/quality, or higher costs since Bos has less manufacturing volume/scale than Steinway.

Which leads to the issue of dealer mark-up. So I'll make up some numbers purely for illustrative purposes and please recognize I am merely guessing. What profit would we agree is fair to the dealer on a Bos 225 and on a Steinway B? Let's say it was $20,000 on the Bos 225 and $40,000 on the Steinway. This may be way off but I would guess directionally correct. Of course this is all irrelevant if one loves the Steinway, but to some extent we like to understand what we are paying, where profit is being made and have a rough sense of costs relative to price.

I have also heard that Steinway's success in having "all Steinway" colleges and universities is in part a function of much lower pricing universities get when buying multiple pianos -- way lower than typical volume discounts in my opinion. Which supports my belief that the wholesale cost is much lower for Steinway than Bosendorfer, therefore allowing for a much higher dealer markup. I think to some extent retail buyers are subsidizing "institutional" buyers, like univerisities, music schools, etc.

I welcome any thoughts that can help me understand this better.

Why do you think it is fair for a Steinway Dealer to get double the profit on a Steinway B that costs them less, is smaller, sells in greater quantity more quickly, and which you believe to be inferior to the Bose 225? I am not agreeing with your numbers, just trying to understand the logic behind them.



Even assuming that your info is good on Steinway's pricing to colleges and universities ( a big assumption ) there are no typical volume discounts in the piano industry to compare with Steinway schools. They are regularly selling schools up to 150 pianos, combinations of Steinways, Bostons and Essex, and I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone else doing anything even in the same universe as that.

By the way, the Bose 225 is my favorite Bose! Congrats on that!

Based on all the above, this must be a heck of a deal:

http://www.pianomart.com/ViewAds.aspx?type=1&manufacturer=9&piano=9614

It is a Conservatory Series Bosie, which means the looks aren't quite as nice, and IIRC they are loop strung rather than single strung. Not that there's anything inherently wrong with that, but it might be construed as "lesser" than the top-of-the-line models.

This is totally OT but that Pianomart site sure looks very strange today.

I'm viewing from Safari on my iMac, the right half page now seems to be a border. I hadn't been on the site in ages till I clicked on the link just now.
I seem to remember , from when I had my S6 and D for sale, the ad taking up the whole page, it seems to have shrunk now.