I've been interested in a yamaha u3x from a store that sells gray. Here's part of their web info: "The truth is these pianos (Yamaha, Kawai and their subsidiaries) are all made in air conditioned factories that set up each piano to withstand the extremes in climate from the dryness of the Arizona desert to the humidity of a New York summer."
They go on to say that if they ever had any problems, they would have stopped importing them, and that yamaha doesn't like these because they take away from new piano sales.
A tech told me that, in my drier climate, in the foothills of CA, the wood shrinks and the tuning pins get loose, over time....after the warranty runs out.
What *is* the truth here?

Gray market pianos have warranty? I thought they come from overseas and therefore lose the local factory warranty because the warranty is not transferable.

The real truth about grey-market pianos is they're outdated.

Norbert

Gray market pianos (mostly Kawais and Yamahas) are used pianos, sometimes VERY used, normally imported into the US from Japan. They are imported because of cultural predispositions against used pianos in the Japanese market. Their quality varies greatly, because their degree of use varies greatly, so you are well advised especially with these pianos to have a technician indendent of the dealer check them out before purchase.

Gray market pianos have no factory warranties. If they have any warranty at all, it would usually be from the dealer selling them and of a fairly short duration. Read the fine print too as to what the warranty covers.

If you did a search, you would find days of reading material on this subject. People are all over the board on gray market pianos. I think they can be of good value (if you shop carefully), but there are many reported bad experiences too. Caveat emptor! As to the made for the US market vs. Japanese market (due to prevailing humidity, etc.), I will leave that one to the experts, who may not want to repeat themselves for the 100th or 1000th time. Do a search. Good luck.

Hi Tonio:

I know in my area, a too large percentage of these pianos develop dryness problems, usually within a year if not carefully acclimatized over time and a watchful eye on the humidity conditions. A problem will usually occur within the first year or 2. If they don't, then there shouldn't be any unreasonable future problems. I'm not sure of your climate, but I doubt it's a severe as here. In the cold winter months it can get drier than the desert, and then very humid in the summer. Sometimes these swings can occur within 6 hours. A dampp chaser seems to ameliorate these problems and I would recommend you convine the dealer to include on in the sale.

Hope this helps,

Steve

The tech is refering to the warranty that the retail establishment may give their customers as in a "store warranty". We are not refering to the manufacturer's factory warranty.
The manufacturer's factory warranty of YamahaUSA and KawaiUS as for US distribution is 10 years within the USA. Kawai's warranty is transferable within those 10 years.
99% of the gray market imports coming into the US are over 10 years old, so it is a moot point.

An issue which I always found interesting was the fact that, Yamaha pianos distributed within the US and Canada do not share reciprosity as for factory warranty between these two countries. They do share "Made for the North American market" status as for their databases stating what pianos are considered made for North America. It is always been controversial whether the database /serial #s are strictly pianos sold through the authorized Yamaha dealers in the states in the past. What!

There are huge polarized extremes in this discussion. IMHO, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

It is less about curing moisture content for destination and more about the pianos living 25-35 years in Japan or the far East.

It is less about used vs new and more about how much use. Many come out of schools with very heavy institutional use.

It is less about "refurbishment" and more about cosmetic "dustin' and cleanin'".

Some do infact exhibit moisture related issues i.e. finish cracking, soundboard and bridge cracking, hammers comming loose from moldings, etc. Many more just exhibit loose keys from worn bushings, lack of sustain, poor tone, and other maladies due to age and wear.

U1s and U3s at half to 1/3 the cost of a new one have huge alure. All may not be as it seems.

It is nearly institutionalized for gray market pianos to be misrepresented to buyers in age and condition.

Pianos don't last forever.
Pianos don't get better with age.

i think there's always gonna be somebody who bought a grey market piano and had a great experience. and they would swear by it. but basing on all the information, if you can afford it, why not buy a new piano or a used but trusted brand?

Those who sell 'em like 'em.
Those who sell against them hate 'em.
In addition to the massive amount of information you can find here by using the search function, there's an article in the Piano Buyer specifically about 'em.

Personally, I would want to have a tech inspect it to be sure all the major systems are in a happy state of affairs. I would be a little squeamish about them in extremely dry environs without some precautions taken (room humidification and/or dampp chaser). My local dealer sells a few, and said the distributor he uses (one of the better known) was very responsive the one time he ever had a serious issue with a gray market piano and replaced it immediately.

A quote to me about Grey Market Pianos:

Also, regarding used Yamahas. We regularly get recently purchased "grey market" used Yamahas on trade. There is a lot of controversy as to whether they are seasoned properly for the US indoor climate. I wont get into that, but we do find them to almost always have loose tuning pins, and seem to be way out of regulation, to the point that we suspect they were not regulated since they originally left the factory. We find a myriad of other problems with these instruments as well, to the point that we usually feel unable to resell them. The "grey market " Yamahas in our tuning clientel show similar problems.
We never see these problems with the Yamahas that were bought new in the United States.

Another tech told me, "He does not want to be responsible for them".

Appreciate all the opinions. Many good points here, like Marty's about the 30+ years of life in Japan's climate. No matter how you slice it, there's risk involved with these grey instruments. A risk that could end up costing the initial price of the piano to repair. It's becoming apparent, that a new, or used/new (non-grey), is the preferred direction. thanks

Actually they made very good Toyotas some 30 years ago too.

These cars had never been built for one climate or another - thanks God - and many of them still run in very good condition be this in the Philippines, Germany or USA.

To tell you the truth, I laways liked them and once owned one myself.

Of course to buy such a car in today's market can still be attractive if it's priced somewhere near the buttom of the scale.

What that 'scale' is and *what is what* is for current consumers to find out.

For every price there is - as can be expected - a certain product to be had. Nothing changing....

Norbert

Marty made accurate and valid points on his posts.
I just want to suggest that if a New Yamaha is above of Tonio's budget, he should consider a New piano made by a different brand. It's very likely that a modern entry-level piano will be a superior musical instrument than a 20 or 30 years old used Yamaha.
In reality grey market pianos don't offer anything special (truly nothing) in terms of performance or appearance.

"In reality grey market pianos don't offer anything special (truly nothing) in terms of performance or appearance."

Kurtmen,

I'm not trying to inflame a grey-market thread that has been pretty reasonable by PW standards, but let's say the price point is 4k. Put the experienced player on a twenty-five-year-old U3, grey or non-grey, but not beaten to death. Let him find his groove. Then put him in front of a new K2 or T118. While he may not find the U3 anything special in terms of performance or appearance, he will undoubtedly find something there in the way of tonal depth and color that he cannot get out of the K2 and T118.

Tonio,

The question goes back to the seller. In your case the seller has made claims about Yamaha's attention to withstanding climate change that do not apply until around 1990 production. Almost all the U's and UX's you will find in the US predate that. Even current Yamaha promotion claims three different standards of wood moisture content: superdry for NA, dry for Europe, and standard for Asia. So your particular grey-market dealer's salespeak is a crock, as are the counter-claims that all grey-market pianos were bludgeoned to death before being crated for North America and that all tuning pins are swimming in their pinblocks.

Some sellers sell only grey-market. You can expect them to say that all negative comments about greys are a conspiracy to create fear.

Other sellers keep a few greys because the occasional customer is only interested in a Yamaha or Kawai, and the dealer isn't authorized to represent either brand.

In both cases the sellers are betting on the instruments' ability to hold up at least a few more years. Their guarantee covers neither pre-sale wear and tear or inevitable post-sale decline in performance. They are simply making a bet that nothing catastrophic will happen for which they could be held accountable.

By Turandot


I partially agree with you must likely a K2 or T118 won't have a spectacular sound.
But IMO the K2 will have a much better action than 25-30 years old U3. As an experienced piano player I rather have great control than volume and less control besides that the K2 still yet a very decent piano.

For the beginner player, the action plays a very important role since this is where the skill of playing piano will be develop.

However I was not referring to buying a Kawai or Yamaha, I suggested to consider a different brand. With 4k you can buy a 52” Chinese Piano perhaps a pretty good instrument. Hailun, Carl Ebel, Heitzman, Palatino are brands that L. Fine position as mid –range pianos.

I partially agree with you as well. Not that many of the old U3 actions are as good as they once were, and what they once were isn't as good as in current production.


What's that? Kurtmen a Finite? Heresy from the House of Carnes? Are you selling Chinese now?

edit/addendum Your pricing is off. Three of those brands do offer 52" pianos, but in all three cases getting the price you mention would amount to a discount from SMP of 50% or more.

The gray market is a steady stream of used pianos. This stream has a cross-section of age/quality/condition just like all used pianos. As mentioned before, because of the cultural pre-disposition against used pianos, they are available at attractive prices. There are factories that sort and clean them focusing on cosmetics and basic mechanics. A closer inspection will reveal if this is prepping them for resale or camouflaging significant flaws.

The history of misrepresenting gray pianos is exactly the history of misrepresenting used pianos in general. Good and reputable dealers do their best to secure a good piano for their customers. Less than reputable sellers will fill you full of garbage whether it was a used piano, used car, snake oil or expensive vacuum cleaner.

Gray market are not a special case. They are a seemingly endless supply of shiny black pianos. As a dealer you can be selective about what you carry or you can catch with nets.

When we get a trade-in piano, it is either fundamentally good condition or fundamentally poor condition. I can make up for missed regulation/voicing/dusting/dings but I can't make up for a piano that spent even a few months in a dripping wet basement or a bone-dry mountain cabin with a fireplace for a heater. Next week I will have a 2004 "made for N.America" Yamaha U1 and I'll set it next to a 2003 Kawai K-71 originally sold in Japan. I'll speak openly with any customer who asks or even hints at the issue, but I don't consider it to matter. Not all gray's are 35+ years old & misrepresented.

Like most things in life, some are good and some are bad.

Kurtman, I disagree that a new K2 will even hold the attention of someone playing a good condition 49"+ new or used Kawai unless that customer only wants new. I don't think anyone even bothers to import in old 45" Kawai because while solidly made, it's the higher level pianos that are desired.

How about Henry Miller? http://www.henryfmillerpiano.com/upright-pianos/hmv052-upright-piano.asp
That one is at a store not too far away and it lists for 6500. I don't know a thing about them, though. Where are they made?

Well, it's not grey market!

Henry F. Miller is a store brand of a group of Steinway dealerships. It's not a Steinway or a "designed by" Steinway piano. It's made for the dealership group by Pearl River in China. Fine's Piano Buyer refers to Miller as "mid-priced". I thinks that's a bit off. Low-priced would be more like it.

No harm in giving it a shot and keeping an open mind, but bear in mind that $6500 is the full MSRP. Most dealers of pianos from China will discount generously. Whether a Steinway dealership will give 25 - 30% on a Miller is something I don't know.

If you do check it out, compare it to the Essex 123. It's a Steinway-designed Pearl River product. On paper it's cheaper although 4" shorter.

Well, that's the funny thing ain't it? What part of NA are they talking about? Cuz there's a whole lot of difference between Toronto, Idaho, San Diego and Talahassee. Even here in So Cal, where I know Pianobroker understands. average relative humidity between San Bernadino and Santa Monica (60 straing line miles) are light years apart.

Piano lore says that the Asian climate is so different from ours that pianos from there disintegrate on arrival. Even Larry Fine has suggested something like this. The lore says that manufacturers season their pianos for different climates. Pianos no doubt are quite sensitive to moisture. But there is little evidence that the Asian climate is much different from ours. Asia has all the climate extremes we do.

What amazes me in all these gray market piano discussions is how few, if ever, you see gray market owners defending their purchases...especially owners that have had the piano for more than 1 or 2 years. ANYBODY can like a piano for a year or two while in the "honeymoon stage"...but, how about those gray market owners who have owned for 3, 4, 5, 10 years? WHERE ARE YOU? THIS IS YOUR TIME TO SHINE!

Dear choleric,

Threads on gray market are hardly welcoming for someone to post happy anecdotes. Re-read your post...it sounds like you've suited up and thrown down your gauntlet. Most people don't want to walk into that atmosphere.

What amazes me in all these gray market piano discussions is how few, if ever, you see gray market owners reporting any problems!

Tonio,

I've owned one for 5 years, I love it. It looks new inside out. I have humidity control because the weather here in dc ranges from 20% in winter to 100% in summer.

Just be careful what you buy, and how you care for it. Put it by the fireplace, I don't care where it comes from or how expensive it is, it'll be ruined all the same.

take care.

Not that it matters, but there is no Asian climate and there is no "our" climate. Climates vary in Asia just as they do around the world.

However, as I said, it doesn't matter. It's about in-home heating and AC patterns that battle temperature fluctuations and the drying influence of those systems on the in-home air.

Fine's commentary on the grey-market issue is and always has been very equitable, not that I'd expect you to take note of that.

Choleric,

I guess you are easily amazed. Brand defenders in this forum are basically a few owners of Steinway, M&H. Estonia, prestige Euro brands, and Charles Walter. I think that owners of grey-market pianos would rather simply play their pianos than participate in some of the cyclical pride of ownership foolishness here.

Another factor is that grey-market purchases are often transitional. Working musicians are usually in transition economically. Few get to a level of financial security that they might like. I don't think all that many people buy grey-market pianos for the long haul so that they can give a ten-year report here. I've owned two in the past. I had each a few years and turned each over. I lost almost nothing on depreciation. So there's my own perfunctory defense.

My experience with grey market pianos has been positive. I have one in my home and my former church has one, both Yamaha grands, in excellent condition and have held up for years so far (2 years - C5, 4 years - C6). They were both checked out by master technicians who found them to be in excellent condition and regulation.

I'm going to buy a grey piano SN 004615970 in 8 days time. Will keep u posted

Hi Jarod...I eventually found a made-for-North America U3 in superb condition. Actually, amazing condition, and sounds fantastic. I decided against a grey after talking with a lot of technicians, however, there are many positive comments regarding the grey's. I think it depends on your luck of the draw. Biggest negative is that it will take a little more than a year for the wood to dry out, then the tuning pegs may become loose. One other negative is that these grey's may have been heavily used in a school environment.....but, if the grey you're considering has been restored, then that may not be an issue. Considering the price of a new NA model, it's a decent risk to try a grey. Could very well turn out just fine for you. Let us know how it goes.

You made your decision but here's some extra thought:

Other makers do not "season" their pianos differently for different locales. I don't think even Kawai does it (can someone confirm?)! It seems to be a Yamaha-only practice. What do you think this means?

All pianos when moved, especially over very long distances, will need to acclimate to the new environment. Very high quality materials in good condition will survive the change. Not all 30-year old pianos are equal. This could easily be the explanation with gray issues people reported. Yamaha could also have improved quality to the point that any of their pianos today can go to any climate.