It's just less than half, on my Mac using Firefox 3.6.

wg73,

There is more data to provide a reference point.
The dealer wholesale cost of the Bosendorfer 225 is significantly higher than that of a Steinway model B.
It has been repeatedly been said here before in this thread.

Larry Fine's SMP (suggested maximum price) is aiming for a formula which is equally derived from the wholesale cost of the instrument to the dealer.

While he does no always succeed in getting the true wholesale number, 90% of the time and to within 10% of the price his numbers are accurate.

In both Steinway and Bosendorfer's case I believe the numbers to be accurate and calculated quite evenly from wholesale as appeared in the last supplement.

The SMP price of the Steinway B: $77,700
The SMP price for the Bosie 225: $120,925

This means that the wholesale price of a Bosendorfer 225 is about 55% higher than that of the Steinway B.


In my last post I used the example you gave regarding the prices, to demonstrate that your friend bought his Bosendorfer for about 38% higher than the average Steinway B was sold for at the time.

So this means that he bought a piano that wholesales for 55% higher for only 38% higher in price.

This means that a few years ago, at 90K, the Bosendorfer was sold for a significantly lower profit margin to the dealer than the average Steinway B was sold for with a price of 65K.


By the way, I too completely agree that the larger and more expensive Bosendorfer model 225 is not a fair comparison to a Steinway B.

I think that the 6'7 or 7' CS would be the best comparison with the 6'10.5 steinway B.
Indeed, the SMP on these models is only 5% - 15% higher than that of the Steinway B rather than 55%.

I also agree that the Hamburg Steinway model C is a better comparison to the Bosie 225 when considering size, performance, or price.

Regarding exchange rates and the way they affect piano prices, over short periods of time it has a much lesser affect than it appears some try to suggest here.

A couple of years ago the dollar was between 1.50 and almost 1.60 per euro (as I recall it was 1.59 at some point).
The dollar is 15% stronger now (1.35 as I'm writing this), yet we have not seen a decline in the price of most European pianos.
While of course the stronger dollar helped slowing price increases, the general price trend is still going upwards.

Similarly, when the dollar was getting weaker, the rate of price increases in the US for many piano brands was much lower than the drop in the dollar’s value and not much higher than the rate of the price increase in Europe needed to compensate for rising manufacturing costs (i.e excluding euro based price increases).

Would price increases on European pianos are likely to accelerate if/when the dollar drops down again to levels of 1.50 – 1.60 per euro?

Of course…the prices on Euro pianos in such a case are likely to increase, but again, a drop of 15% in the value of the dollar is not going to translate right away to an increase of 15% in piano prices (in addition to Euro based priced increases to cover for inflation).


The reason is that most piano companies either hedge or absorb short term fluctuations in currencies.

Not all depend solely on the US market and they are still selling their pianos in countries with stronger currencies (or in Europe) currencies which allows them to absorb costs in one market.

A good number of the European manufacturers are small family owned companies.
Some have enough resources, allowing them the choice of when and if to convert their piano sales dollar revenue to Euro or invest/keep it in dollars until the right time.
At least one of these family owned companies kept revenue from piano sales that were generated during a weaker dollar period in US investments, and converted to Euros only when the dollar was stronger again.

Granted, not all manufacturers are in a position to do so, however, this might be just another another advantage for small, nimble family owned companies.

Of course, some manufacturers price their pianos in euro, ex factory, and may not do too much to fight currency fluctuations… but these are in the minority.


In addition, even for pianos made in the US, some parts and materials are imported…which act’s, at least to a certain degree, as an equalizer.
Whether it is soundboards, plates, hardware, casters, strings, or actions parts…a weaker dollar translates into higher costs for these companies…while these parts remain the same or even become less expensive for companies with stronger currencies.

What each piano retailers margins are I cannot say.
Would a high-end European piano hold its value better than say an American, I think that is a given.
Everyone set aside this circular debate on wholesale, retail, markups and discounts and lets just look at the actual quality of components:

Within the piano trade here in North America, it is generally accepted that most felt products that come from the higher European suppliers are far superior to what is made and used in North America. This refers to things like key punchings, key frame felts, hammerheads to some degree and action leathers too.
Music wire is also the same situation. The high quality wire from European makers is considered better than that supplied by the North American DRAWN wire maker. Even more interesting is the fact that I once asked my German wire supplier if the wire that is sent to America's supply company is the same grade that is used in Europe and they said no. So even when techs might think they are getting 'the good stuff' by ordering the European brand through the American supply store, it is not the same as is going into the German made pianos in Europe.

Why do I bother saying all this????
The pieces going into a European piano cost more right from the start (we've already acknowledged these are better quality) and so naturally the wholesale should be greater. Therefore the retail will be greater and if they are selling at greater discount percentages than their American competitor, obviously they are providing a greater concession for which all should be grateful, even if the price is still a little more.
This would make sense that the margins are in fact greater for an American made Steinway over a high end European competitor - forgetting about MSRP's and considering what matters = the going market price.

Not to mention...
In any other industry, if a manufacturing company made their product in such a way that three side by side, would yield wildly differing results, that company would never survive.

I am all for someone buying and loving what touches them most, absolutely. But let's not kid ourselves as to which are really the best! How many European born and bred concert pianists demand an American Steinway in Europe over any other brand of instrument as they play and tour the concert halls over there?

John,

I know Anton Kuerti does...

Born in Austria but prefers a NY Steinway over both Hamburg Steinway AND Bosendorfer. And Bechstein/Bluthner,etc...

Jordy,

I think the 5 year old Bosie CS214 being sold on pianomart in the link you posted would be a very interesting alternative to the Steinway B. It's the about the same size (7', or 1.5 inches longer) and the only noteworthy difference between a "regular" 214 and the CS series is the lower cost satin finish (same as Steinway?) and that the treble strings (3 per note) are "loop-strung" (like Steinway) instead of having 3 separate strings for each note, each with there own pins (obviously a more costly/labor intensive method). These differences result in a Larry Fine List Price of $94K -- $29K lower than the regular 214. I speak from very limited experience (seeing them being built in the Austrian factory tour and playing in showrooms) but have heard that this design was intended to have a different sound character (less clean or pure in my opinion) than regular Bosendorfers, perhaps meant to appeal to people accustomed to a US (vs European) sound (Steinway perhaps?).

So if I were you, I would check out the used CS214 (I wouldn't think there would be many used ones around) because you may love it and save yourself a lot of money, certainly compared to a new Steinway B. (I forget whether the one you saw was new or used.) The $47,500 feels like a fair price - not a steal but the seller may be willing to negotiate. [My guess would be $94K list - 30% = $66K estimated selling - 25% depreciation for 5 years = $49.5K.]

Hope your close enough to check it out. And add to your dreams by getting both, in the same room in your house and then you can go crazy never being able to figure out which one you love more.....

Keith,

Sorry that my comment was not clear - I was trying to suggest that difference is NOT fair, i.e, if my "mark-ups" of $20K (Bosie) and $40K (Steinway) are even directionally accurate, although I am happy to pay a higher wholesale price for perceived quality/value I DO NOT think the profit to the dealer should be very different. So I believe that the higher wholesale price for Bosie's is offset to a material degree by the "extra" profit a Steinway dealer captures. So that that actual price paid for a Bosie is not as much higher as the wholesale price difference would suggest, i.e., better value, assuming you prefer the Bosie.

These types of posts, when ignored, are the reasons PW is so misleading to the innocent, piano reading perusers...
Anton Kuerti was not born and bred in Europe. Born in Austria, yes, but studied and bred in the United States.

So I pose my question again:


Just so it is clear, I hold Mr. Anton Kuerti among the finest pianists, and for him to have chosen to settle eventually in Canada is a gift that we Canadians should hopefully never take for granted.

I don't know about piano choices for concerts in europe, but
the international contestents at the last cliburn had both ny and hamburg to pick from and ny had a slight edge.Here is the link to horowatzian's post on the numbers-- http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1301077/Horowitzian.html#Post1301077

Janiveer,
According to the thread you refer to, the Cliburn competition is held at a Steinway and Sons ONLY venue. Hopefully the contestants would find it in themselves to at least settle on one of the S&S that were available.
At that competition, what would have been interesting is if other high end European piano brands were made available, how many pianists that used the NY Steinway would have chosen something European instead?
The Cliburn competition says nothing to support anything of Steinway since no other pianos were represented.
If a Honda Accord entered a competition against a Honda Civic, who would win? Honda.
What does that say? Nothing.

"janiveer,
According to the thread you refer to, the Cliburn competition is held at a Steinway and Sons ONLY venue. Hopefully the contestants would find it in themselves to at least settle on one of the S&S that were available.
At that competition, what would have been interesting is if other high end European piano brands were made available, how many pianists that used the NY Steinway would have chosen something European instead?
The Cliburn competition says nothing to support anything of Steinway since no other pianos were represented.
If a Honda Accord entered a competition against a Honda Civic, who would win? Honda.
What does that say? Nothing."


What does it say? It confounds you're claim that no european born & bred pianists choose American Steinway over another euopean brand,Which you relate to the superiority of materials in european made pianos.

Interestingly, the Cliburn wasn't always only Steinway. At the 1985 Cliburn (Feghali was the winner that year), the competitors had Steinway, Baldwin, Bösendorfer, and Bechstein to choose from IIRC.

Back in those days, it was held on the TCU campus.

John,
I know very well where Mr Kuerti studied, as can any 'innocent piano-reading peruser' with half a brain and a search engine. The reason I mentioned Kuerti is as much to do with him being recognized as a leading interpreter in music which is commonly associated more with European pianos than big, bold NY Steinways, as it does with his place of birth or training.

This "European pianos are the best and European pianists KNOW best" line of thought holds little water with many folks here, especially when pianists like Kuerti, Horowitz, Hough, and Rachmaninov express(ed) such a strong preference for the American product.

I for one will take a Hamburg Steinway over anything except perhaps your very own Steingraeber, or potentially a Faz or a Bechstein depending on the repertoire.

However, every pianist worth his salt knows that a particularly fine NY D is a very special piano indeed. It is rare to find a pianist who demands such a piano in the great halls of Europe due to reasons of practicality, not to mention the obvious fact that the German D is such a marvelous instrument.

Let's not get too elitist with this European stuff...
NY Steinway, with a bit of work, is RIGHT up there with the best of 'em. REGARDLESS of what Ori may think.

Very well said...totally agreed.

Janiveer, please don't misquote me. Take another look at what I wrote (third time now):



If the answer to this question is none(or even one or two)...., sorry, I don't understand what the fuss is about with the NY Steinways then. They simply aren't among the best.

What passes you ain't for you.

If you think this line of argument is proof of german piano superiority, then What about this; How many European{or north and south american} born and bred concert pianists demand a German Steinway in America over any other brand of instrument as they play and tour the concert halls over here?

If the answer to this question is only one or two,does that mean the fuss over "German made piano" is unjustified?

OMG, I was listening to the piano bar in the Adult Beginner Forum and I asked "Larry" what kind of piano he had, because it sounded so beautiful and he just wrote me back, and guess what he said.....HE OWNS A STEINWAY B!! I'll never get that sound out of my head...what have I done?

Taken another step closer to your own B, I'm sure!

For concerts in NYC's Carnegie Hall, my experience over the last 40 years is that the majoirity of the pianists choose Hamburg Steinway.

So we all have our biases (and perhaps agendas). Here are my views (biases?) and a thought about the future.

- I happen to favor the Bosendorfer sound over the Steinway sound
- It seems there is some consensus that the quality of materials and craftsmanship, consistency and preparation for the highest quality European pianos is higher than the NY Steinways, which I happen to value, especially given my preference for their sound
- It seems that to get the best sound from a Steinway, selecting the right one (back to the consistency comment) and having it really well prepped is key. (If I worked for Steinway I would address this issue)
- As per earlier posts, I don't like the fact that the dealer mark-up seems much higher on Steinways. Again if I wanted that sound, I would "suck it up", but it's a turn-off, and also impacts value retention
- I resist the fact that Steinway has very effectively leveraged the brand to garner an extraordinarily high concert hall market share, "all-Steinway music schools and universities, etc. (I'm sure they have many internal discussions about how to hold on to that legacy market position and retail dealer pricing power.)

But maybe there's a trend developing. Someone must have this information: the actual unit volume for the last 10 years for each of Larry Fine's Group 1 Highest quality pianos and now that I look at it, group 2 as well. I don't know the numbers, but given Steinway's relatively high volume and legacy market position they must have had a unit market share of 50% or more 10 years ago (how many Steinways are sitting in the living rooms merely as pieces of decorative furniture but the owners don't know how to play?). I would bet as more and more people in the US are discovering the quality and value of some of the much lower volume but very special European brands, NY Steinway's share of market has been eroding. Of course, their historically high market share was probably unsustainable anyways. So the customers/musicians preferences should be evident in which brands have been gaining share in the market and how this evolves in the future as people discover that although Steinway is certainly among the best known brands (of any product), there are some pretty impressive alternatives in the Piano World.

Yes, if only one or two does, then that means the fuss over German made pianos is unjustified! Period.
OH Janiveer, did you catch what followed your post:



I rest my case.

BTW, Haleydog, very well put thoughts on the matter.

While I respect your own tastes in pianos, I don't think that these statements are entirely accurate. It certainly isn't a secret that the New York and Hamburg people have been working together a lot more in the last several years or so (IIRC they even moved some of the Hamburg brass over here), and New York has been working to correct some of the small issues that they've had in years past.

It certainly shows in the newer B's (like mine, the 'B 5', as marked on the tail of the plate) which are more consistent right out of the box than the previous model B. I've played several besides mine (which is marvelous), and they are all good pianos. They still exhibit their own personalities, but none are dogs that I have seen.



Steinway's presence on the concert stage is largely a post WW II phenomenon. A large portion of the European piano industry is in Germany, and it was in complete shambles following the war. As I understand it, NY Steinway was virtually the only quality piano that was in a position to fill up the vacancies of those firms on stages. I believe the Hamburg factory was bombed, so they were down for the count.

In the postwar years, the German piano industry slowly recovered, and today it is largely intact (and flourishing with a diversity of brands that the US hasn't seen for a hundred years), with Steinway's Hamburg instruments becoming a large force on the concert stage, arguably larger than their New York counterparts.

To give a hint of the prewar piano diversity, I submit this quote from David Dubal's book Remembering Horowitz:



Today, an artist arriving from Russia very likely wouldn't consider anything else but the Steinway.

I simply disagree with that conclusion newgeneration, My point is that if there were a lack of pianists Demanding to play on a german instrument as they tour N.America, that would not mean that the fuss over german pianos is unjustified, no more than the lack of pianists demanding to play on masons or chickerings over the decades while touring europe means that those non-german instruments are inferior.

"For concerts in NYC's Carnegie Hall, my experience over the last 40 years is that the majoirity of the pianists choose Hamburg Steinway."

This is completely an incorrect statement. I can only guess that since the NY Concert & Artist pianos have been made in a High Polish finish for the last five years that you may mistake them for the Hamburg pianos on the concert stage.

Any of you seen the movie "Note by Note"?

There is a scene where Pierre-Laurent Aimard selects a piano for his Carnegie Recital. When he arrives, he greets and kisses a blond woman in the NY concert basement. That woman is my wife and the former Manager of the NY Concert and Artist Department. (1998 to 2004) She handled all of the C&A selections, rentals and on site tuning service and scheduling for Carnegie and Lincoln Center. (to name just a few of the Hall's we service in NYC)

So I can tell you for personal and professional experience that the statement made above is false.

I love this forum, but when people make incorrect statements and others use them as the basis of their argument, it is sad.

Small point: they haven't been doing the NY pianos up in poly for 40 years (yet).

I went to the Great Pianists(both series I and II) series for 20 years and I think the majority of Steinways had the rounded arms and nob on the side that I thought meant they are Hamburg Steinways. Is this not the case?

I don't doubt you are correct when if one is considering all the piano recitals and concerto performances at CH. My experience is from the Great Pianists series only.

Horowitzian,

Yes, that is why I placed in my previous post "the last five years". I get many people over the last five years making the mistake when they see the HP ebony finish.

I understand that ( ), but plover specifically mentioned over a period of 40 years, in which case your response would not be accurate save for the last 5 years.

However, I have done double takes from a distance myself! But closer examination reveals the piano to be of New York manufacture (Sheraton arms, brass plate on the lyre, small nonlocking casters). An OT question: Are the NY D's now shipping with large German locking casters? I've seen a couple equipped with them.

I've gone back a few years to try and dig up the specific order, (and i haven't located it yet) but here's something interesting for all the true NY Steinway lovers...
(sshhhh, I'm whispering now: My bass strings are on a Steinway in the Lincoln Center). And we produce our strings with what you'd find over in the higher end European pianos. I'm happy to hear you are all so impressed with the sound of 'your NY Steinway' at least in the Lincoln Center.

Also, a small number of very high end American rebuilders are completely redesigning the soundboard - bridge relationship for Steinway M's, A's, B's and D's and using our strings, not... Steinways. So when you folks are coming across Steinways and 'they blow you away' - hmmm, wonder if any of those have been after the handy work of post Steinway factory workers.

I have been wondering for quite a while now if this information should be let out. I couldn't resist any longer.