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For those of you whose kids are learning piano, or other instruments--
how old are they and how much do they practice?
What percent of the time do they practice on their own?
What percent of the time do you bug them into doing it?
Do you have rewards (link to privileges) or is the playing its own reward?

When I was young I hardly ever practiced. Of course now I regret that! Wonder if sometimes I go overboard expecting my kids to practice consistently (and cheerily )

Hi T'sMom, how've you been?

My daughter was so passionate about piano from the time she started lessons last April and up until Sept. of last year. After that, with all the distractions of school, friends, video games, our new dog, etc... I started to noticed she never touched the piano without being told, and her skills diminished a little as a result.

When 2010 started, I've been committed to sitting down with her at least 2-3 times a week during the week, and guiding her practice. We work mainly on sight-reading, dozen-a-day-drills, and Junior Hanon. I also have her play her current "repertoire" a few times a week. I am merely there to correct errors, and again, I'm no teacher.

She just turned 7, and lately, she's been very responsive to "checklists". I'll make a list of things for her to practice and give her incentives when she "checks them off."

So far, it's been working, and her teacher has noticed great improvement in her sight-reading (her only real weakness). I hope this helps.

PS-You might want to try to Teacher's Forum too to get advice. "Teacher knows best."

PPS-I never practiced either as a youth, and looked what happened...I quit.

Ha-ha! My kids like checklists too. They'll play what I put on the list, but they HATE playing things more than once. The concept of working on something eludes them. And once is not enough sometimes!

I also go back and forth about whether they should be able to earn "rewards" by practicing. DS insists he practices *only* to get the lemonade afterward but maybe it's a little joke and I'm just not in on it. I can't tell.

LOL, I don't get it either. I play the stuff that I'm working on hundreds of times, and I tell her that it's the only way to not make mistakes. I'm lucky to get her to play stuff twice, but the checklists have been working. She doesn't "get" repeating certain measures or passages either, although I've been getting her to do that too.

Oh, and lately, she's been exploring new music on her own. I guess they get bored with the same pieces.

She's nearly "performance ready" with her latest piece, Bach's (or Piezgold's) Minuet in G.

My almost-7-year-old practises 25 minutes a day, pretty much every day, but I'm always there supervising. It's not all at the piano. Part of that time is for solfege/sight-singing, theory, technique, sight-reading work.

My 4-and-a-half year-old practises 10-15 minutes a day, pretty much every day. I'm always supervising. Only half the time is on the piano. The other half is listening, beating a drum to some music, staff reading, singing a song to the metronome, etc.

If I run out of time and can only give one of them practice time, the other child will cry that she didn't get a piano lesson from Mommy. It's been mommy-daughter bonding time for us.

Nice story, MomOfBeginners. I'm glad your kids are "self-motivated."

My younger one (age 5) recently started dabbling with the piano too, because she felt left out during mine and my older one's evening practice sessions.

I have three 13 year old boys who have been taking lessons for seven years. They now practice 45 minutes a day, five days a week. The other two days they have lessons--one individual, one group.

I wouldn't say they are self-motivated practicers any more than they are self-motivated homework-doers. They do it because it's expected of them, but they never have a bad attitude about it, never ask to not practice, etc. It's just part of the day. I rarely supervise, which means sometimes the practice is less productive than I'd like, but they have begun to understand that mindlessly sitting on the bench and playing for 45 minutes may not get them a good response at their lesson.

I did buy the book Practiceopedia, and sometimes I ask them to read it to replace their practice time, especially if we're pressed for time. This has been really helpful in getting them to understand what truly productive practice looks like. They also like it if I help them with their practice (play one hand, for example, or help them practice scales) as long as it's not seeming punitive. They would do much better with a checklist for practice rather than a time limit, but their teacher doesn't do it this way and it would take me a long time to make up a checklist for each of them each week.

Overall, they play very well. They often volunteer to play for Grandma & Grandpa when they come over, and this display lets me know they are proud of what they've accomplished. Still, they'd quit in a heartbeat if we'd let them. There are lots of demands on their time, and they'd much rather be outside shooting baskets than practicing. That said, they have graciously accepted that they will be taking lessons through their senior year of high school and that their teacher requires an hour a day of practice for high school students.

Nancy

My son is 8 and has been playing since he was 4. He practices 45 minutes a day 6 days a week. We also do written theory and Music Ace on the side from that.

We are both students so I do still sit down and go through his lessons with him. Sometimes I will remember something his teacher wanted him to do but didn't write down. It works out well but we're starting to cut the cord a little . I think Momofbeginners and I are both homeschoolers so we're used to being extra involved in learning . Less interference would probably work for most.

God bless you!
My two are twins, boy/girl, age 8. DS is learning piano. DD is learning violin. It sort of happened by accident but I am very glad they are not on the same instrument. They'd be comparing themselves too much. Is there competition among your sons?

To NancyM333 and to T'sMom:

I'm impressed with both of you. Handling multiples! I barely handled one baby at a time.

Three boys (ten years ago) at toddler/pre-k age. I'm getting tired just thinking about it!

My eldest (5 1/2) seems to be pretty self motivated for the time being. He likes to practice, but only when someone is in the room with him. Also, if I go to practice, it's almost a sure bet that he will be right behind wanting to take over. Naturally, I usually let him.

We don't have to be right by his side, but he really enjoys (and I think he needs) the praise given while playing. He likes playing, even practicing, for an audience. Correcting mistakes, on the other hand, doesn't usually go so well. (but today he was very receptive, which was surprising! (and fixed those darned hesitations that were driving me nuts))

We feel very lucky so far that he is so interested in playing and learning piano. I would never force it on him.

The only reward I've given so far is a two-starburst treat after his group lessons. A pretty fair trade, in my opinion!

I think he mainly loves it because I'm learning as well, so I better keep practicing so he does too. I'm relying on his prodigious career to support me through retirement.

My kids are 6 and 8, and they practice everyday. My 8-year-old practice about 45 minutes a day and my 6-year-old about 25 minutes. They always start with technical stuff, scales for about 10 to 15 minutes then play their repertoire. My 6-year-old some times practices twice a day over the summer but not since school started.

On occasion, my 8-year-old would ask me after watching the performance of certain pianist such as Yuja Wang (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gj0JFMU7ZLk&feature=channel) how much practice she did when she was her age, and I basically tell her at least 3 hours a day often more. I told my daughter that she has the gift to be a concert pianist, but she has to start practicing 4 hours a day. We pretty much decided music will remain a life long hobby for her, but she agreed she would eventually practice at least 2 hours a day in order to finish all 11 levels of classical studies before college.

My 6-year-old is still too young to understanding what he's doing with the piano other than seeing his sister's piano exam certificate on the wall, and he wants one too, he says. I expect both children to practice at least 1 hour each day by 5th grade and 1.5 hours by middle school and at least 2 hours everyday by high school. The hardest part is finding the time from my schedule to sit through their practice each day, provide constructive criticism and practice suggestions. With my son, in particular, I must provide him with 6 additional lessons during the week before seeing the teacher in order for him to make sufficient progress. If anything I often find there is no time for me to practice.

My son is 12, has been playing 5 years, and he practices 30 minutes a day 5 days a week. He won't practice on his lesson day, and I let him take one "skip day" a week, usually Fridays.

He doesn't like to "work" at the piano, but I know it's necessary in order for him to progress. I tell him he needs to solve one problem with each piece, every time he sits down to play. And that means hands separate, slow tempo, repetitions of 2 or 3 bars at a time up to 10X, stuff like that.

I do find that positive reinforcement helps. He won't admit it, but has a much sunnier disposition when I sprinkle in 2 or 3 "hey that sounded great!" each practice session.

I'm proud of him.

Mine's sixteen now. Since he's an old guy, he doesn't count.

Piano*Dad,

What was your secret sauce in motivating your son?

Hmm,

Different here.

I've got 3 kids (13,10,8) and they all have been playing for 3 yrs now. The idea is daily practice of at least 10-15 minutes. That works most of the time, although sometimes they miss a day when things are busy. Of course they play more piano then those 10 minutes, but that's the amount of 'serious practice' we kind of set as a minimum. 'serious practice' meaning 'working on whatever is on the list for the next lesson'. Just playing around, improvising or playing old stuff is of course something they like and do a lot.

Every year before the summer brak we check with all 3 of them them whether they want to take another year of lessons. So far they all say 'yes', but whenever one of the kids decides that they don't want to commit themselves anymore to a daily practice regime, that would be fine. Piano playing is a hobby, and they can still enjoy it without lessons if that is what they want. I am not going to spend hundreds of Euro's a year for lessons that they don't really want, with the added disadvantage that I as a parent have to continually run after them to exercise.

Because of this 'yearly check' theyr are quite committed to their practice, and apart from some occasional reminding there's not a lot I have to do about that. I help them with practice whenever they ask, but don't automatically sit down with them. How much help they want depends on their mood, or the difficulty of whatever they are working on. Sometimes I accompany them in a quatre main piece.

I really cannot imagine already planning where my 8 yr old will 'be' in 10 yrs time, or telling her already what her practice scheme will look like when she's 14. For those of you with these 'long term plans'...why do you do it that way? I'm really curious!

Ingrid

I was beginning to get the feeling there were some draconian parents around here. I particularly didn't like Nancy's remark "they'd quit in a heartbeat if we'd let them" - was that serious?

I certainly do like the idea of the yearly check-up - it gives real weight to the decision to keep up or not. I can easily believe it boosts the commitment to lessons and practice, since it is their own choice.

Kids don't always know what's best for themselves though. I learned for a year as a 9-year-old kid, before switching to half-heartedly pursuing violin for 5-6yrs. Over 15yrs on and I've taken up piano again, and after 2yrs am making very good progress. But I wish my parents had encouraged me to stick with it as a kid, knowing how good a pianist I could be now.

Some families work better with a finer level of parental involvement. Some families work better with less.

While I'm not actually a homeschooler (I work full time), Rubato has the right idea that I am very involved with my kids' learning. It is usual for me to sit down with my kids for a few hours and work on math, reading, crafts, drawing, etc outside of school-assigned work. My focus is dedicated to sitting down with them at that time, and I do not just assign the work and walk away. It's natural then that music is a supervised activity.

My point: How music practice operates in our house is not that different from how we usually operate on other subject material.

I agree to some point Pezza. And I do encourage them. It's not completely voluntary,they do commit for a year at a time!

But is it really bad to allow a child with musical talent to kind of ignore that? I would never force one of my children to take piano (or whatever) lessons for years if they don't want to. It's not like school or something, music is for most people a hobby (or a way of life, or an addiction, but still something they do because they like it, and not something they do to earn a living)! Of course I am not talking about that 1-in-a-million kid that may be the next Beethoven. But even then....if you are the potential next Beethovern, I think you still have the right to choose a career that you like. Even if that means you'll become a dentist, and never compose any piece of music.

Ingrid

+ 1 to Ingrid's statement.

Not so sure I agree.

My kids have a lot of activities that are fun and which they choose to do on their own, with their free time. If I let them, they would fill their time no problem with a lot of activities most of which would not develop them at all.

Even a kid who enjoys piano, as my son does, will not voluntarily do the hard work necessary to really improve. Fun is fine, but work is necessary, and kids generally try to avoid work. That's where I come in as a parent.

I don't think 30 minutes per day of focused work and attention at the piano, in the middle of lots and lots of play of various sorts, is objectionable. That's what makes me the parent.

I find that a strange conception of a parent.

Also, I don't agree that kids generally try to avoid work.

Zenobe,

For some kids school is more then enough 'developmental' activity.

For those that want more (or where you as a parent think that for whatever reason some additional 'developmental activity' would be a good idea) I would at least try to let the child pick the activity. Could be playing an instrument, could be something else (from drama class, a chess club, or even reading books about the universe or whatever!)

I would never decide for a child that it HAS to play piano, or whatever. And I find it a weird idea that you think children have to be 'forced' to do stuff because they apparently lack an interest in learning new things...I think you might just have picked the wrong thing for YOUR child, if that much force is necessary!

And anyway..what's wrong with having fun when school is done? And who says that anything 'developmental' has to be tedious?


Ingrid

That's great! Do you play together, pieces for 4 hands.

There is no reason to push him to learn or to play without you, to nudge him out of the nest. Everything has it's time.

Agreed. At this point, with both my children young adults, it is no longer a parenting theory.

I took piano lessons from when I was about 8 until I was 10 or 11.

I felt that I actually made good progress, but I stopped practicing entirely in the last year or so of lessons. My mother did try to make me practice but I still didn't. I suppose if she pushed me harder I would have, but instead I just said I wanted to stop taking lessons.

Soon after I started playing electric guitar and bass, self taught instead of lessons.

Fourteen years later, I realize that if I had kept up taking piano lessons and practicing all this time, I could be a good player. I am now trying to self-learn a few pieces on the piano. It is fun, but I really regret that I didn't stick with the instrument so long ago.

Oh well.

When I was younger, it only annoyed me when my mom told me to practice. Then when I had to quit lessons, I started doing stuff on my own. now my mom can barely make me STOP playing! I spend 90% of my free time playing old pieces or trying to learn new ones (mostly old pieces, but it has helped improve technique and such...)
Point being, sometimes forcing someone to do something they dont want to do right then can put them off. If they like it enough theyll stick with it. if not, maybe they would prefer another instrument? thats just from a kids perspective so...yeah xD

I would argue that there are no activities that do not develop children in some way. Even playing computer games or watching TV develops some abilities and also can be an enabler for other interests and a source of creativity.

And I certainly don't like the "if only my parents had been more strict, what a pianist I'd be today!" kind of statement. Chances are, if someone's parents had been more strict, this person wouldn't be playing piano at all as an adult for it represents the parental opression which he or she had to suffer as a kid (I know some of such examples in my environment).

Again, I like Ingrid's way - kids can be quite erratic if you don't inject some level of control. Making the decision a severe one will get most children into thinking - and almost any child with some motivation and enjoyment in piano playing will answer the yearly question with yes.

This 'If only I'd been pushed' attitude can be said for many things. If only I'd been forced to play tennis, dance, sing, study, etc. My parents have always allowed me to stop things I didn't enjoy and they always provided new things to try. As a result I have become, as my signature says, a jack of all trades but a master of none. Would I have it any other way? Not a chance.

Think of it this way, what did you do with your life instead of play the piano as a child? Go outside and kick a ball around? Actually meet people and make friends? Your life may have been very different, and there's a chance it would have been for the worse. I know if I hadn't quit a few things and taken up a few more I wouldn't be with the love of my life and I wouldn't have had the experiences that sitting infront of a piano would have brought.

@the.grey.squirrel: my thoughts exactly

Hey, most kids I know would also quit elementary school in a heartbeat if we let them. Many would be content to sit in front of a video game console all day, putting them at risk of diabetes and heart disease at a young age. So the question of "what they would do instead of practice piano" would likely not be make friends or kick a ball - it'd be beat the next level of WoW.

Hmm. This thread is moving a bit off topic, but anyway...

School is kind of obligatory, so let's not talk about that.

But for the rest:




Well, there's lots of room for compromise between 'forcing' your kids to practice piano for an hour a day, or allowing them to sit behind a tv or computer screen from 3.30 pm till bedtime.



With again the added comment that I find it really weird that you think that that is what children in general would do, given the chance. Doing mindless, empty things. I find that a rather negative starting point for any parental thoughts. And my experience with my own children (and other ones I know) is quite different. Of course they need guidance and direction, but I do not recognize at all this need to 'force' them away from any natural mindless tendencies. If necessary I help them to find things that they can get excited about, but very often they discover those things themselves with not that much help. Sometimes by trial & error (basketball was only a short term thing here, just like table tennis), but that's fine. It's also a great way of learning!

Ingrid

My story, as I've told before in other threads, was that both my parents are non-artists/musicians and never really knew the importance of having such a "developmental activity" like piano to have in my life. I thank them that they invested in my lessons, and a piano and such, but both myself and my mom regret why she didn't push me. My teacher strongly discouraged me (and my mom) from my quitting after having reached level 4, but my mom didn't stop it. I don't blame her at all, because again, her being a non-musician (and at the time, a struggling immigrant trying to work full time and raise a family), didn't know any better.

As for all of you player-parents...bravo to all of you! You see, that's the advantage that our children have - we all know how important piano is because we ourselves are players, and some of us are re-beginners as well. Let's just embrace it and keep encouraging our kids to be the best they can be at piano. Then maybe one day, they can "hang out" in the Pianist Corner and discuss their level 10 pieces...lol.

Actually my son loves playing piano. What I am struggling with now is whether, as he matures (he is 12 now), to continue to apply the same gentle but firm parenting to require him to practice every day in a focused way, as I have in the past 5 or 6 years that has helped him to reach this point.

Piano is something he loves doing, it is an important part of what makes him special, according to him, not me. Often in school they are asked to do "what makes me special" type of projects, and he always identifies music and piano. Again, it is owing to his hard work and my guidance and parenting. And we are very close too, and our work at the piano bench has made that stronger!

But I will have to gradually back away, out of respect for his maturity and individuality. 12 year old is different than 7 or 9 year old. It makes me a little bit sad and scared that he may drop it, and I may not hear him developing where I know he can as a musician.

I am amazed how parenting has evolved - when I was a kid (I am 44), children had no ability to self-direct when it came to things that were expected of them: chores, schoolwork, music, languages. Now, if a parent applies even mild pressure to guide and direct, it is abnormal!

Nonetheless, I expect that the posters on this forum, loving piano and children as they do, all have their own form of happy and enriching family life. And that is the biggest blessing I think.

What an awful image of children you have. Happily, it is completely false. If it were not, it isn't "forcing them" to keep on with their piano lesons that would keep any kids on the straight and narrow path between all the ruinous temptations.

I believe that you, Zenobe, are suffering from a profound lack of confidence in you child.





I disagree all along the line. In anycase, no one in this discussion, as far as I can understand, as said that parents must not guide or direct.

As the OP, I am very interested in all the replies and I appreciate the direction this thread has taken.

We all want to do what's best for our kids, of course. But it is so hard to know what that is, and unfortunately it doesn't become clear til later.

Much of it comes down to the specific personalities of the kids involved. My kids are both so different from me at that age. I was an enthusiastic and well behaved little piano learner at lessons. But I barely practiced. I didn't have the discipline myself, and no one made me do it. So eventually I had to quit because the music got harder and I couldn't get away with it. Still, I've appreciated music all my life in part because of those lessons, and now am enjoying re-learning several decades later. Music came easily to me then-- oh if only I had applied myself!

My son also has innate ability, I think quite a bit more than mine. He is luke warm about piano. Sometimes he likes it, sometimes not. I do insist that he practices because I think that's appropriate at age 8. *He absolutely would play wii all day long and do nothing else if he were allowed to.* Good thing he has parents. I question myself about whether we're doing the right thing, but I think we are. Especially now that he has a new teacher -- he really likes going to lessons and doesn't want to leave! Interestingly, my husband who is a total non-musician believes absolutely that we are doing the right thing encouraging him in piano at this age, even if he "complains" about it. He complains about school too. He complained about Little League last year too until he had to admit he loved it (and asked to sign up again this year).

My daughter is again completely different. She asked to study violin and is doing it, but it does not come easily to her. She has to work HARD at it. She is finally learning to read music, but not without struggle. She can't always hear differences between half-steps. The violin squeaks. I give her so much credit, I think I myself would have quit in frustration by now. But she is doing it, really finally making progress. She has to be reminded to practice but she clearly says she wants to keep going with it overall. We've tailored our approach to her differently.

Long winded, but I guess my point is that some kids do need to be "pushed." Before having such a kid, I never would have imagined that based on the kind of kid I was myself.

What a great discussion! As a parent of two boys who also play piano, I'd like to put my 2 cents on the table.

Not to generalize but from my own experience, if I let my sons to pick the things they like to do, they most likely will pick anything other than piano. It takes a lot out of you sitting there practicing piano, just imagine how much of your body is involved, your eyes are looking at the scores which is abstract, you brain does a lot of processing to direct your fingers to hit the right keys at the right time with different intensity while you feed press the pedals subconsciously. There may be a few kids (music genius?) who genuinely enjoy playing piano, but I would say the majority would not do it if not coaxed to.

Researches seem to show that playing piano (or any other instruments) helps establishing the connections among brain cells for little kids, the most is gained between age 4 and 11.

Before my sons got serious with piano, they used to need a big chunk of time to do their homework and they need my help often. Now they can whipped it out in no time and seldom ask me for help. Their test scores and grades also go up, they went from an average B student to straight A. I could not believe my eyes when I saw their last report cards, they both got ALL 4s in Reading, writing, and Math!

I don't know how much playing piano has to do with their progress in school, hey if it works, I will just keep doing it!

So based on the above, I will ask my sons "firmly" to practice piano if they "forget" it. I would be fine if they don't wish to do it after they are 11.


I am very interested to hear the stories from other parents.

Chopinmaniac, I made a conscious effort in 2010 to guide my daughter's practice and her math score (in standardized testing) improved from 81st percentile to 97th, this term. I'm not sure if these activities are correlated but I would like to think so. We have focused on sight-reading this year, which makes the brain work hard at patterns, etc. I'm no Psychologist but I think this helps with mathematical thought processes.

Also, the age 4-11 window theory is interesting too. I didn't take up piano until the ripe age of 9, but came back very strong after a 27 year layoff. The piano skills - mainly rhythm, finger dexterity, and hand independence - came back very easily because I think the "neural pathways" were established at this age. Now, my sight-reading's a different story. Sometimes I feel like a beginner when it comes to sight reading...lol.

This is certainly not true, although it may appear to be true. I don't think that you really believe that either, in your heart of hearts.

Glad I didn't pay attention to the research. At age 9 or so my child decided to put away the instrument he had started. Age 13 he decided to take it up. Completely missed that supposed window. When they start manufacturing human beings to engineering specifications and commensurate limitations, that's when I'll start believing that stuff.

To get back to the question, the piano, and more generally music, has become a very important part of my relationship with my daughter, who is 9 years old.

I don't believe that she has ever had the feeling that it is something that she has to do. I frequently ask her if she wants to continue, whenever I feel that she needs to reaffirm her engagement. Like Ingrid I have always considered that it is her engagement, and not an obligation. Of course, for a child an engagement is different that for an adult, so I take it at its value. And then farther down the road, when she sees more what it represents and what it means to engage in something, I ask her again if she wants to go further.

However I rest very attentive to her moods, when she is tired or not very motivated. Sometimes it is clear that she doesn't want to practice, and in that case I try to judge whether she must, or whether it would do her some good to not play that day, or even for several days. I might try to liven things up, play some piece together, teach her something that is not for her teacher. I think that a good half of her time at the piano is not spent on her teacher's assignments.

There are also days or times when it is me who is tired or not motivated.

If I sense a childish passivity, I'll probably get upset with her ... but not because she has to do piano, like a doing a chore, but because it is my gut reaction.

In any case it is rare that I ask her to practice alone. Depending on what there is to do, she may be thrilled when I do ask her to. But we usually have such a good time together that the next day she is thrilled to be back with me.

On numerous occasions we have played together in recitals. In these situations I have always been approached by parents who get to wondering whether playing together with their child might make things easier.

I am not in the least worried whether my daughter is "too dependant". The question couldn't be farther from my mind.

I have never offered rewards or privileges of any kind. I cannot imagine doing such a thing. The very idea shocks me. It seems to me to be a tacite recognition that learning music is an affair of drudgery. And if that is the truth, if the parent really thinks that this is the case than the parent has no business "bugging" the kid to study piano, in my humble opinion.

Also, I have recently succeeded in finding someone to accompany my daughter on another instrument. It is in fact my daughter's solfège teacher, who plays flute. At the first session we played, the three of us, a little arrangement that I made of a ländler by Schubert. The teacher gave her a score of the "Can-Can" for the next week, and they played it together in the solfège class. My daughter is thrilled, and is highly motivated.

It is very unfortunate, in my view, the habit to make learning piano a so lonely activity.

I don't have a negative view of children - I volunteer working with kids and I love spending time with them. I didn't say that all children are like this, but the ones I've observed who are like this are usually ones with parents who don't care to guide what their kids do all day. Even really bright children have told me that their favourite activity is playing video games and they wish that they could play it all day long. Good thing their parents don't allow them! Kids as young as eight are getting diagnosed with type 2 diabetes, and I think any parent who doesn't care enough to direct their child from this kind of lifestyle is being negligent. I also know from personal experience many classmates who played games until well past midnight in their teens, causing their grades to plummet and ruining their chances at a good university out of high school. Children are bright and fun-loving people, but many still haven't developed the concept of self-discipline. It's up to the responsible parent to teach them that. Getting them to stick with piano lessons is a great way, IMO.

Well, you are somewhat right. If he could do what he wanted, he'd take wii breaks to go watch TV. OK, and play piano once in a while because he likes when his cousins dance while he plays. Honestly, In my heart of hearts, I fear it's very true. If all goes as planned we won't ever find out for sure.

I find it a bit strange that video games are perceived as an ultimate evil void, that would suck poor children's souls into it if we didn't save them. To play is essential and even video games get boring eventually.

Yes, there are examples of addicts that completely lost their lives in games like WoW. But I think to prevent such (rare, although medially hyped) cases it not a matter of constraint and force but of giving real alternatives. Of course as a parent you will give guidance - but in many cases it is motivation enough for a kid to see, that making music (and practising to get better at it) is something that makes my parents happy. School is an entiry different matter of course.

I want to take up the cudgels for video games (and other activities perceived as "empty" and "dumb") one last time: a lot of kids (esp. teenagers) that never had any encouragement in playing an instrument come to play piano because they want to play that tune from their favorite game (or movie) - youtube is full of them. Others get into web design, computer graphics or other genuinely creative hobbies (and sometimes even professions).

I don't want to criticize anyone's parenting here (not having kids myself), but just advocate against this irrational paranoia concerning "new" media.

Well, it is clear that you are very anxious concerning your son T. Although it is of course dificult to understand the situation through an internet forum, I would think, based on what I have read in your posts in this and in earlier discusions, that the difficulty is two-fold:

On one hand, you have decided that he should learn the piano, but you have not sought to have his affirmation. You ought to find the way to transfer the decision to him. Ask him if he wants to continue. I would suggest not adding "you know, that means that you have to practice everyday" or something of the sort. Don't try to trap him with his own words. This is something you will have to ask him again and again in the future, but you oughtn't use his past affirmation as blackmail to force him to practice. You will have to accept that in transfering the decision to him, his activity will be more subject to his desires or his moods, but that will permit him to make his own decision which will become progressively more conscious and more profound.

I add that you should not use his "innate ability" as a means to avoid the process of him making his own decision.

On the other hand you are trying "to push him from the nest". You want him to put down of his own accord his Wii and go play practice piano. I would suggest, to the contrary, that you plonge more completely in the music adventure with him. I suspect that you would want him to practice on his own. I would abandon this objective. Do it with him, everyday. And make sure that "practice" is only a part of what he does: make music together. It will require a deeper involvement than you have had until now ... and I know that you do spend time at the piano with T. Make music a true part of your lives, not something that you do so that he does it, or something that he has to do because of supposed future benefits or to keep him off of his Wii.

These two ideas may seem contradictory. But so are children (and adults too).

There is the question of your other child, too.

Yes, landorrano, it is hard to have a real discussion on a message board. But there is no nest pushing w/us! I am in no hurry for my kids to grow up-- it will happen all too fast no matter what we do! We do discuss whether DS wants to play piano or not. He's a kid. He likes it sometimes, more often than not. He likes the way certain music sounds. He likes playing duets with me. He just isn't all that enthusiastic about practicing sometimes, and I started this thread to hear about the wide variety of experiences with other peoples' kids and music. It's interesting to me.

His latest position (this month) is that he would like to take lessons but not practice. That's what he says if I ask him. Next month it will be something different. For quite a few months, we had no teacher and then it was just him and me. It's always changing.

I think what you perceive as "anxiety" in my posts is just my way of conveying my interest and enthusiasm for my own and my kids' music studies. Really, it's all good!

LaRate-- I agree 100% that there is a (large) role for video games, especially in the life of an 8 year old boy. My DS and his friends all interact around their love of video games, it is a social and developmental activity, I don't think of it as empty or dumb at all. He has also noticed the music in some of his games, we've talked about how to find out more about how that music is written and produced. It's just a matter of degree and I do have one friend whose young-adult son suffered some very serious consequences (dismissal from college, admission to a hospital) due to WOW addiction.

I have a rather dumb question. I keep reading about these abbreviated characters that seem to be family members. Several people have done it. What is DD and DS?

DD= Dear Daughter
DS= Dear Son
DH= Dear Husband

commonly used on some other message boards, which is where I picked them up.

A question then.

Practicing: what does this consist of? Is T alone? Or are you with him? Does he have the feeling that he has to practice?

I have no doubt that he likes playing piano, but that is different from affirming an engagement.

I remember that you had a period without a teacher, after leaving a teacher who was in some way problematic. An unstable situation makes it dificult for him, he is tossed around by the tide, so to speak. It is fairly recent, just a few weeks I think, since he began with a new teacher. He is certainly not convinced that the situation has stabilized. It would be harsh to expect him to be regular and disciplined so quickly.

His Wii has been a sure and regular friend.

But it is an excellent moment to ask him to begin engaging himself ... the implications of which he cannot understand, but which he will discover over the course of days, weeks, months, and years.

It's just that I cannot rid myself of the impression that he is operating inside the framework of your decision and not his own.

No secret sauce. I worked with what I had, and I put some structure on his choices. What I had was a kid who drew some serious motivation from external appreciation (the praise of others). I'm sure the Myers-Briggs has a category just for this!

We started off with the usual 30 minutes per day, and as that produced good results, we were able slowly and carefully to ratchet up the expectations. Never with a whip, mind you. This was always consensual. He could see the benefit and he bought into the routine.

Also, at an early age I introduced technical exercises. This worked really well. It gave him some concrete things to accomplish, and he could quickly see the benefits in terms of finger independence. It also allowed him to go beyond method books and into 'real music' quite early. All of this created a virtuous circle of accomplishment.

I suppose this virtuous circle is also part of the 'magic' in helping a kid through those problematic middle school years when quitting is so common.

Piano*Dad...2 items and I'd like your feedback:

1.) My daughter is doing the dozen-a-day drills and Junior Hanon. She is up to exercise 3. What technical exercises did your son do at age 7?

2.) At what age did you start supervising less, and did recitals motivate your son to practice more? My daughter also responds to praise (but only from me and her teacher), but she hasn't hit the "recital circuit" yet. I told her that her videos have gotten great reviews on YouTube, but she just shrugs her shoulders..lol.

Thanks in advanced for you feedback...PS-your son is very talented. I've seen some of your videos.

I, too, am very interested in feedback from Piano*Dad and other parents of children whose interest in music took off on their own.

Piano*Dad, thanks for your response to my question.

In particular, I'm also interested in the level of supervision. In school work, my first grader cannot be handed a list of items and expect to sit for an hour and go through the list on her own. The independence is starting to come in, but it's not there fully yet.

That seems to translate into her piano practice. If I give her a list of tasks and expect her to sit for 30 minutes going through that list, it's either not going to happen, or the practice session will be very unproductive way.

So Piano*Dad, when you said that you worked with your son for 30 minutes, were you pretty much sitting there with him the whole time? Or peeked in every 5 minutes?

This brings up an interesting conundrum because I'm a parent of children whose interest in music/art (respectively) took off on its own - in fact, started on its own. However, Piano*Dad and I have taken approaches that are totally opposite, yet both of our children have experienced success. His son is in high school, mine went on to music at the university level. From what I can tell, his son's interests are as balanced as those of my own children. I'd say that there is not just one approach. If you take an interest in your child, respect him or her as a person, and spend time listening as well as telling, you probably won't go wrong.

Well, at age seven he wasn't playing the piano.

He didn't start until he was eight. I avoided all of those problems of motivating the very young. On the other hand, he lost out on the benefits of possibly having three more years on the bench (like most of the kids he sees at regional events)

I introduced Hanon, if I remember rightly, late in his first year of study.





Supervising is a very broad term. There is sitting in on lessons, monitoring practice, supervising practice (they're different), pushing kids into performance etc. Teachers are all over the map on whether they want parents actively involved in lessons and/or in working with kids at home. I don't want to rehash a dozen Teachers Forum threads here. Suffice to say I was pretty activist at first. I sat in on lessons and I actively assisted at home. I certainly did not simply say, "go practice for thirty minutes" and walk away.

At some point, his teacher asked me to disappear into a separate room so she could focus his attention firmly on her. Perfectly sensible, and I went. At some point later, however, she invited me back. I think I was a good team player, and she realized there were real benefits of keeping me in the loop more directly.

Now, when he switched to his current teacher at the college (entering ninth grade), I disappeared from the lesson process entirely. Oh, I sat in for the last few minutes on occasion (she often runs late), but there is very little purpose served by having me there anymore.

I still work with him sometimes at home. I know the music he's studying and I act as part time coach.

As far as recitals as motivation, having deadlines does help focus the mind. But he got used to public performance very early, so formal recitals became just another performance opportunity. When he had been playing the piano for something like six whole weeks he asked to be in his elementary school's 'talent show.' I think he played some simple thing like the Marine Corp Hymn, which uses two hands and full chords, and he happily did this in front of 600 kids. That's when you know you have a kid who doesn't have nerve problems. For him, all forms of public playing seemed quite natural. No one had to force him on stage. This is one reason why I chuckle when people upbraid me for 'pushing' my son 'too much.' By middle school he was probably playing things for an audience a dozen or more times per year.

I cannot stress enough the importance of public performance for any kid who seems constitutionally adaptable to that kind of stressful situation. Mastering that fear, and actually beginning to enjoy the process, is a great confidence builder. One that I think may transfer to other aspects of life. This is self-esteem done the right way.

Along the same lines, I think it's a great idea to get kids involved in a second instrument as well. Yes, it's more time they have to spend 'working.' But band instruments offer more (and different) performance opportunities and they are a great social outlet.

Even from the beginning, I wasn't there all the time. He could do a lot of his practice on his own. But I did do a fair bit of supervising. I have decent piano skills, and I could act as surrogate teacher or sous chef in the piano process. I knew what his teacher was trying to achieve, so I could reinforce the lesson and make sure bad habits didn't start to take over. Is there some risk of stifling a kid's natural creativity or of frustrating their natural independence? Yeah, I guess. It's a judgment call.

My son (5 1/2) *loves* playing for people. No fear whatsoever. I don't know if he's just a natural performer or if he just hasn't had time to develop the fear, but whatever it is, I hope it continues.

He has his first "recital" (more for the parents, I think) in 9 weeks, and he's really excited about it.

I'm jealous of my kid's nerves!

Sounds right to me.

If you don't mind I'd like to enter the very interesting discussion you are having as parents of piano students. It is important to take an involved role in support of your children's music lessons.

I am a piano teacher who has been reading about Suzuki method because a teaching friend in New York has been expressing her pleasure in the teachings/philosophies and is now using Suzuki principles in her teacing for the past 2 years. So this made me curious as I have a lot of respect for the teacher.

This is what I noticed when I read today: "Those who fail to practice sufficiently fail to acquire ability. Only the effort that is actually expended will bear results. There is no short cut. If the 5 minutes person wants to accomplish what the 3 hour per day person does it will take him 9 years."

This is about taking action to own the concepts being taught and spending enough time and effort to place the concepts together with the action into memory for retrieving in the future as skill developed.

Does that help anyone focus on why we practice, how we practice and the how much practice?

Somewhere a happy balance can be negotiated, but leading children to water and asking them to drink means that they have to see something of value in actually doing it. There has to be a reward of some kind (intrinsic/extrinsic), it could be pleasure, satisfaction, pride that motivates a child to put more and more into practice.

Practice not being the assignment in particular - but practice being the pursuit and dedication and committment to the "game" which is conquering the difficult and making it easier and more and more possible to win.

If you were climbing a mountain you would face in the right direction and put one foot in front of the other and start moving forward. If you were on a sports team, you would play to help win the game, you wouldn't be valuable as a passive lump on the bench. Using positive parent strategies is going to be a step in the right direction. You have to create the possibility thinking and the sense of direction moreso in a reluctant or passive child that you do in a child who is motivated.

Sometimes teachers and parents have to teach motivation! Sincere praise given to a child about anything he is doing right works so much better than nagging or expressing only the problems.

The more naturally, lovingly and nurturingly you can proceed the better for each person on the team - teacher, student and parents. Enjoy each other and the process.

Betty Patnude

I'd like to suggest a new book on the market: Ron Ottley's book 'Now I Love Music Practice' can help develop a good attitude to music practice.

It can be seen at www.teachyourfingers.com

The book is reviewed in the current issue of "American Music Teacher" the official magazine of "Music Teachers National Association" (MTNA) a 24,000 member organization.

Betty Patnude