Hi,

I'm an adult beginner that's tried two teachers so far. 2 trial lessons with each one, and I feel like giving up!! Maybe I'm the problem - too picky, thinking too much, etc. But let me describe it, because I don't know that I am.

A bit about me. I'm a very organized and logical person. I learn very quickly in general, and am patient, thorough, etc. But I do need good guidance and communication from a teacher. Clear communication.

Anyway, I've met with two teachers for trial lessons thus far. The first teacher started me using the Alfred Book 1 for Adults mixed in with some Russian method book she was familiar with. She'd have me play some from Alfred, then some from the other book, spoke about chords, etc. Went into some basic theory, etc. Just sort of random to me. I never got a real good direction of what the plan was or should be - a clear road map for learning (i.e. we are learning a bit of this and a bit of that for x & y reasons, etc.). She was VERY good about technique, hand relaxation, etc. That part was great. But the rest seemed sort of all over the place. So when I had to practice, I wasn't sure what to really focus on. Communicating this to her proved difficult. She'd just smile and say to not overthink and just play. So I decided to place that on hold and try another teacher.

The second teacher - the communication was better. I explained to her from the start what my goals are, how I work/learn best, etc. We really had a great conversation about specific things and music in general. She seemed to have more experience with adult students. The first lesson? 4 books! A bit from Bartok, a bit from this book, a bit from here, and "let's see how much we can do" sort of attitude. Right of the bat I started playing real simple pieces in unison, both hands, reading music in different 5 finger positions. Some in C, some in G, A, etc. No rhyme or reason. She said it was good for sighreading, hand coordination, etc. For practice? Bartok 1-9, boook #1 1-5, etc. I asked what should I focus on and how should I divide my practice time - i.e. what's the important part - the sightreading, the hand coordination, the positions, the tone, the music, etc., etc. Again, it seemed all over the place and not very structured.

So I'm left scratching my head. Years ago, when I was much younger (I'm 37 now), I took classical guitar lessons briefly. I had a very good teacher. From day 1 he was very organized and explained things very well - i.e. what we would work on & how, and how I should spend my practice time. For instance, he had 4-5 sections - theory, exercises for technique development, a musical piece, chords, rhythm, etc. And we'd work very logically on each and it all made sense. If I practiced 1 hour/day, I knew to spend 10 minutes on exercises, 20 on chords/scales, 20 on the music, etc. Just seemed normal and organized.

Is piano that difficult to teach? I can pick things up pretty fast - the classical guitar playing helps a bit with notation, rhythm, etc., but I need a teacher that's somewhat organized and can communicate what the plan is. So far it's like I'm just doing X, Y, & Z without knowing exactly why or how I should spend my practice time. Teachers must have a plan in their heads, but it sure seems like let's try this and that and the other. That's just how it feels.

Now I have no problem following direction at all. In fact it's explicit direction I seek! I have no problem if the teacher uses 1 book or 10 books. Everyone is different, so that doesn't matter to me. But I DO need to know in either case what it is that we're trying to achieve and how I should spend my time. After a lesson I should not be left wondering, but I should know precisely. I have no problem being told what to do like a kid. But it seems the opposite is happening.

So what's the deal? How do you teach adults? What can I do differently? One teacher was from a piano store/studio and the other from a local music school. Both have very good backgrounds and apparently successful students. So then I start to think it's me. Things just seem muddy instead of clear! I mean how hard can it be? I'm very open, expressive, and willing to do what it takes. I'm articulate too, but it seems I'm not heard. It's just very bizarre! Am I giving up too soon? Is there a period of mass confusion before clarity sinks in? I don't know. So far I haven't seen a method! I have played all that was assigned, and well. I'm doing my part, but not sure to what end. And it's sort of depressing.. Help!

Excellent post, burma!

I'm not a teacher but I completely understand your dilemma because, although I'm not a beginner, I'm in exactly the same position.

I too need a logical, progressive approach to my learning and I've yet to find a teacher who seems to understand this. My situation is further complicated by the fact that I live in Germany and it's difficult to find the right teacher who also speaks good English.

Structure and guidance is what I'm looking for in my lessons!

I agree, great post! It will be interesting to hear the teachers replies.

From what you write it does seem to me that the teachers you've had are good and do have plans and organisation. But maybe are not that good at comuunicating that. I did feel the same when starting out. What helped me were two things. 1) I took a theory class at the local university, which gave a general better understanding about music and really helped to get some perspective. 2) I realized that I should relax and look at things in a longer perspective then I'm used to. Such as, what progress have I made during the last semester? What did I enjoy, and what about the lessons have worked out well or not so well? When looking at it from this perspective I noticed that there was much more structure and progress then you just notice at first glance. I could for example not see very much logic in the adult method book I started with at the beginning, but only later understand how it is built up.

I think it is difficult to be clear about learning music, since all skills and theory builds up and works together, and it is not until after a while you start to see the connections and learn what questions to ask your teacher about the lesson planning and how.

Is it possible for teachers to be more clear? And to involve the adult students into the planning more? I hope so, because it would be helpful and interesting for the beginning adult student.

I think we might need a little talk about what it is like to know how to play piano, or music in general. What will we be spending our time on during the first years? What are intermediate and advanced students spending time on? There is almost an infinite number of skills that the student could be working on, so maybe a little explaining of why we are working on these skills right now would be good. Just to give a broader perspective about the learning process.

To summarize, Burma, all the pieces will make more sense as time goes by. Relax a little, and try to enjoy the jorney. If you are enjoying yourself and progressing, don't worry too much. Try to ask questions in a gentle way. Some questions might require a two hour lecture, so thats the reason the teacher is not trying to explain everything at once.

Very recognizable situation. The traditional approach of just spending a few years with a kid on a few method books and see how far you get is often not appreciated by adults with life experience and high standards for themselves. Adults are capable of moving faster on a number of dimensions than children and are used to dealing with structured situations in their professional contacts.

Teachers are often baffled how to handle adult students, especially those that want to be treated as adults.

If you can find someone who has experience teaching adults or for beginner adults someone with experience with getting adults to pass exams such as their ABRSM Grade 5 theory and practical piano exams then you at least know that they can work to an objective result within a well-defined curriculum. Grade exam syllabi are not too crazy of a way to try to structure the learning of adults who want to really learn music and give attention to pieces, technique, theory and musical understanding.

A teacher writes:

Usually it's the student who's unorganized and it's the teacher's job to help them achieve a good practice regime. If you are arriving ready-organized then you can get straight down to brass tacks which must be posture and ease of playing. That can take years to get anywhere with. You have obviously not come out of each lesson shouting Yippee! so I'd keep looking.

A suggestion from an adult piano student who used to teach high school math. Get a little notebook. About 5 minutes before the end of the lesson get it out and look at your teacher expectantly. Ask him/her to tell you exactly what you're to be working on for the next lesson and what goals you're supposed to achieve. Alternatively, you could keep your notebook out during the lesson to scribble a quick note. Having to articulate goals should help you both focus.

Or alternatively you could say "The facts ma'am, just the facts". Oh, don't forget to lick the stubble of your pencil first!

I have taught many adult students over the years. With any student, the first few lessons will feel "random", it just is until a routine gets going and the student & teacher adjust to each other. It's an adjustment time for both teacher and student. Teacher #1 sounds like she was doing a good job, did you express your concerns with her?

If you stick with a teacher a bit longer, the purposes behind all the books and activities will become obvious. I do warn my adult students about the "random" feel they may have at first, and that it will feel like I'm just throwing a bunch of books at them. After a month they always have a understanding of what we are trying to achieve and how. It is difficult to achieve a complete understanding in just one or two 30 minute lessons.

You can expect technique, theory, lesson book, performance book, and sight reading to be covered in each lesson. It sounds like teacher #1 was trying to cover these things, and probably only had a 30 minute time frame to work with? All are equally important, and although it may feel a bit "random" at first, that doesn't last long. You do get used to it and the reasons for each step will become apparent. One thing I do that helps with that new student "randomness" is to conduct the lesson in the same order for a while; 1. technique, 2. theory, 3. lesson and/or performance, 4. sight reading. All are equally important. An assignment book detailing what to focus on in each piece also does help. I also have the student practice in this order.

As you came seeking candid advice (you did, didn't you?) I must say that you've been quite unfair to both teachers.

It sounds to me like you're coming at piano like you would learning how to use a machine, like a computer, or a table saw, or sewing machine, not how to make music and learning to play artistically. In the former, you seek specific directions, in the latter, it's a process of refinement, week to week, month to month, year to year.

Anyone can learn how to play the piano as a mechanical device. Simply learn the note names and other notational meanings by rote, then put your fingers on the appropriate keys and press them down as you scan the music page, maintaining a constant speed as you read left to right across the page. That's all there is to it. As Bach said, the piano is easy - all you have to do is press the right keys at the right time and the piano plays itself!

However, if your goal is to communicate through art, to make music and have it affect your listening audience, then learning to play will be a constant, lifelong adventure, and the teacher(s) is your initial guide. As is noted well above, it takes time for a teacher & student to gain rapport and learn how to communicate with each other. Two lessons is simply not enough. I suggest a minimum of 12 lessons is actually required for the student to learn how to read the teacher and vice versa.

Burma, I hope you take this post as a positive suggestion for you to figure out what it is you're trying to learn, not as a negative flame, even though I have been direct.

As you are in the Boston area, I can assure you that there are several thousand fine piano teachers available. Best of luck in your search and musical journey.

Bach was speaking of the organ. He would never have said that of any other keyboard instrument.

This describes me pretty well too, heavily influenced by my background in math and computers. Piano lessons took a bit of getting used to for me. My teacher would tell me the same thing as yours did -- "You're overthinking this."

I found that it helped to stop expecting this to be like a computer programming course where they give you a syllabus, you follow step-by-step, you get a complete understanding of each topic before you move on to the next, and you come out of it knowing a new programming language. Rather, I'm starting to accept that I won't understand everything the first time I hear about it. And I won't be able to do everything correctly the first time I try it. And I won't always know immediately how it all fits into the big picture.

So I'm thinking of this more like I'm immersing myself in another culture. Some things you just let flow over you and seep into your consciousness, and trust that they will eventually become part of you and make sense. It's much less frustrating and a lot more fun that way -- a real adventure!

But to make that work, I think you need to have a real trust in your teacher -- that they're giving you what you need when you need it. If you come out of lessons feeling frustrated and like you didn't learn anything, you'd better keep searching.

BTW, great suggestion by -Frycek on using a notebook to write down your goals at each lesson.

It's difficult to comment without actually having been present during the trial lessons - so just a few general points:

The first few lessons with any teacher will inevitably be taken up by the teacher exploring the student's capabilities and expectations and the student getting to know how the teacher works.

Communication must be two way. The teacher isn't a mind reader.

Also, my personal view is that, at least for me, a lesson which is only 30 minutes long presents real problems - there is often just too much to cram into such a limited time. My own opinion is that (at least for me) a lesson should be 45 or 60 mins.

Never? Are you sure? Did you ask him?

BTW, I thought he was speaking about the harpsichord at the time. Of course, he couldn't have been speaking about the piano, as it hadn't been invented. Now I'll have to go back to my Schweitzer to check the quote. Darn.

Not invented!? At the end of his life Bach was an agent for a piano dealer. That would have been kinda difficult if they didn't exist!

Hi Burma,

I'm an adult beginner too, nevery played before, 44 yo. I need structure too, and in fact I attribute a lack of structure as the main reason I have failed to learn the guitar over the years. It's my fault, I know, but my guitar teachers always seemed random and haphazard and lacking in methodology.

The good news is that piano methods are much more developed and logically graded. My teacher took a couple of lessons to evaluate my ability and what I knew already, and those first two lessons did seem a bit random. But as soon as she had a handle on my abilities, we quickly settled into a very logical graded program.

I'm in Piano Adventures, the kids version, and I love it. In my case, the kid orientation doesn't put me off at all. So what if there are little cartoons and stuff - I need some levity in my life too. I started with 2B, and now am finishing up 3A, excited to move to 3B.

To keep things fresh, we also work from John Thompson (just finishing book 1 this week!), as well as Easy Classics to Moderns, Alfred Adult All in One (just finished Guantanemera at the beginning of book 2), as well as Hanon and scale practice each week.

Nothing revolutionary in this approach, but challenging and super rewarding as I move through the journey of learning to play.

Of the two teachers, pick the one you communicated best with, and you feel most comfortable being around. They both seem professional to me. Then mention your need for structure, and pick a method that your teacher believes in.

Best wishes to you ---

I'd like to highlight some things after reading OP, hopefully to get some answers from teachers afterward.

I heard similar from friends in the past. The most effective way to study an instrument with a teacher is for the teacher to have a general plan of what kinds of skills he wants to give and how he's going to do it, and that takes form within lessons through what he observes and instructs. What makes it powerful is if the student then practices those things all week. It is not just a matter of practices given pieces, exercises, or scales, but what to focus on. That is the part that wasn't happening: the purpose and focus were not there, so the student could only practice in a general way.

There are some reasons that this seems to happen with adult students the most. We hear from teachers that when they do give such instructions, they are ignored; also that we don't practice a lot. The expectation isn't there. Also, adults have a poor reputation so that better teachers may not want to take us, so we may end up with someone who doesn't know how to plan lessons that way. For certain, the idea of practicing toward a purpose is constantly expressed for child students, so this is not a novel idea. Also, plenty of teachers do also do this for any student.

Is it a matter of matching a student who wants to really work with a teacher toward goals, with a teacher who teaches this way? Where does a student look? How does the student present his or her wishes? What should the student look for, and what red herrings that don't matter should the student NOT look for?

The advice to take notes is a good one: but something noteworthy has to be there to note.

The idea that it's not like math is also important. One of the most frustrating things that teachers relate is that some of the deepest teaching doesn't appear to be that way. Something that seems frivolous and unimportant might actually have something serious behind it, if the student will trust it. Another recent thought is that music teachers are also artist, who act intuitively as well as deliberately, and teaching may be the same. I wonder whether, if a teacher has to explain everything, the teaching process might even be interfered with in some way.

So maybe a different question: how can you tell? When is the feeling of flopping around that the OP described not a warning sign of anything - other than maybe that these piano teachers are not like the guitar teacher?

I hate to say it John but maybe you're just the kind of misinformed musician the OP's trying to avoid? First you misquote Bach then are ignorant on the history of the piano!

The quote I know is not specific about the actual instrument (whether organ, harpsichord or any of the other keyboard instruments) - "It's easy to play any musical instrument: all you have to do is touch the right key at the right time and the instrument will play itself."

It was reported by someone called J.F. Köhler. Bach replies to a compliment about his organ playing - "There is nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right notes at the right time, and the instrument plays itself." My source is Spitta, I don't know about you.

Oh, come on. You don't hate to say it at all. You live for these moments!

The modern piano didn't come around until the 1850s. Bach was well decomposed by then. Christofori had invented the basic mechanism and Bach had tried out a prototype of Silbermann's in the 1830s. He reportedly didn't like it. At least according to one source, 3 years before he died, Silbermann made enough improvements that Bach accepted the instrument. It had the same relationship to the modern piano as the Wright Brothers' airplane does to a 747.

This is a bit harsh KBK. I disagree. Does every teacher have to know every detail to be good/informed teachers? I am sure John just simply remembers a quote vaguely, but thinking it would help the OP. If teachers have to be absolutely certain when giving advices, this forum can’t be as lively. I’m not against you. I’m not for John. I just hate this kind of comments in the Teacher Forum.

Teachers should be well respected by students and other teachers alike. One or two minor errors in a lifelong journey can’t be that significant, or misinformed. I enjoy this thread very much, until this happens... quite distasteful. It breaks my heart.

You're exaggerating a bit there (in fact Cristofori's mechanism was highly sophisticated) but what does it matter? Bach played piano, harpsichord and clavichord - the remark was concerning his organ playing. He was making a very valid point, quite lost on the misquoters.

And that's exactly why I started taking lessons last year, after having self-taught for many, many years. Just what I needed!

I think the "randomness factor" and obviously getting used to a teacher (and the teacher to the student) is very true. The lessons have all been 60 minutes - anything less is not enough IMO. So that's not the issue. Now I'm not one to give up easily, and I have some musical background from playing classical guitar. I had a great classical guitar teacher as I said in my original post. And that's what I seek for the piano too. It just seems hard to find.

The issue too is that lessons seem to be "semester-based". You can do 1-2 trial lessons and then you have to pay up the $1000K+ for the semester and commit. And that's a scary proposition if you don't feel right from the start. I think what you say is what I seek - communicating to the student better.

I don't know how I've been "unfair". To me it's absolutely critical for a teacher (and student too) to be organized and a good communicator. I have tried my best to be clear and focused in my communication. If they can't communicate what they are doing and what they want from you, what's the point?

Why you equate me needing/wanting organization, clear communication/direction, etc. with approaching learning the piano like a machine eludes me. A teacher NEEDS to give specific directions, or else why bother? After all, I'm not there to pick up "vibes". Sure there are intangibles, but they are part of something. I can learn on my own going through method books. But I will also learn bad habits, miss out on many things a teacher observes and adds, etc. And see the example I gave regarding my classical guitar teacher. There was nothing mechanical about it.

Yes I am in the Boston area. That means 1000+ teachers, all super-qualified, but in reality it's trial and error. I also need to commit $1000K after 1-2 trial lessons due to the semester-system they employ frequently around here, so you can see why I'm a bit on the fence.

I think most adults DO over think. I won't say it's not a problem (as opposed to children). But I've been very upfront with both teachers. I said I don't want shortcuts, I don't need "feel-good" tunes right away, etc. I told them I'm willing to put in the work to do things right. Teach me like you would a kid - don't skip or think I need to be happy fast in other words. I will listen and follow your directions very well. And I have. I understand what I'm playing, etc. I'm not playing above my head in other words. I understand what I'm playing, but I'm not sure why I'm doing it. A lot of it seems redundant. And I've said this to them, and they say, don't worry, just play. Now that's just not an acceptable answer to me. Yes, sure they are feeling things out. But let me know that. I want to know that if I'm playing out of 4 books, that there is a reason for down the road - 6 months, 1 year, whatever. I want to know what to practice - don't just tell me do as much as I can, etc. And from the 4 books - 2 teach things differently for instance. It's like using two teachers! So that can be confusing. Each book starts out differently and focuses a bit differently. So it's just plain bizarre! There simply doesn't seem to be a method to this. That's the frustration. If I ask, I'm told I'm over thinking, etc.

John, the OP wrote a lengthy post, and when that happens, essential things have a way of getting buried. This student has had lessons before in classical guitar, which is not a frivolous thing. His expectations are not dissimilar to my own thoughts about music lessons, and probably even close to how you teach. I am struck in particular that he is stressing teacher expectations in practising. My gut feeling is that an anology to sewing machine instruction is off, simply because this person has had lessons before.

We know from PW that lessons come in many stripes. While two lessons are not enough, it is possible that there is fire where there is smoke. If one doesn't know how to find a good teacher then it is possible to get into that situation more than once. After that you are labelled a "teacher hopper".

I tried to ask some questions of teachers in my other post.

[this response after reading p. 1]

No! Let's all get along! John's opinions count just as everyone's. I never said the teachers were misinformed - just that they lacked a clear methodology - or at least they couldn't/didn't present it to me yet. They are very qualified and great players. But that doesn't make them great teachers.

I spoke a month or so back with someone from the New England Conservatory. He had the right idea and was very explicit. At $100/hour though, I had to pass. But I have to believe there are just as good teachers at half the price. The hard part is in finding them. Structure is important.

You're probably right. I was struggling to find an analogy which expressed the difference between mechanical learning and artistic learning. Some days are not my best!

Don't worry 'bout me'n John. I just can't resist rattling his cage!