Hi,

I'm an adult beginner that's tried two teachers so far. 2 trial lessons with each one, and I feel like giving up!! Maybe I'm the problem - too picky, thinking too much, etc. But let me describe it, because I don't know that I am.

A bit about me. I'm a very organized and logical person. I learn very quickly in general, and am patient, thorough, etc. But I do need good guidance and communication from a teacher. Clear communication.

Anyway, I've met with two teachers for trial lessons thus far. The first teacher started me using the Alfred Book 1 for Adults mixed in with some Russian method book she was familiar with. She'd have me play some from Alfred, then some from the other book, spoke about chords, etc. Went into some basic theory, etc. Just sort of random to me. I never got a real good direction of what the plan was or should be - a clear road map for learning (i.e. we are learning a bit of this and a bit of that for x & y reasons, etc.). She was VERY good about technique, hand relaxation, etc. That part was great. But the rest seemed sort of all over the place. So when I had to practice, I wasn't sure what to really focus on. Communicating this to her proved difficult. She'd just smile and say to not overthink and just play. So I decided to place that on hold and try another teacher.

The second teacher - the communication was better. I explained to her from the start what my goals are, how I work/learn best, etc. We really had a great conversation about specific things and music in general. She seemed to have more experience with adult students. The first lesson? 4 books! A bit from Bartok, a bit from this book, a bit from here, and "let's see how much we can do" sort of attitude. Right of the bat I started playing real simple pieces in unison, both hands, reading music in different 5 finger positions. Some in C, some in G, A, etc. No rhyme or reason. She said it was good for sighreading, hand coordination, etc. For practice? Bartok 1-9, boook #1 1-5, etc. I asked what should I focus on and how should I divide my practice time - i.e. what's the important part - the sightreading, the hand coordination, the positions, the tone, the music, etc., etc. Again, it seemed all over the place and not very structured.

So I'm left scratching my head. Years ago, when I was much younger (I'm 37 now), I took classical guitar lessons briefly. I had a very good teacher. From day 1 he was very organized and explained things very well - i.e. what we would work on & how, and how I should spend my practice time. For instance, he had 4-5 sections - theory, exercises for technique development, a musical piece, chords, rhythm, etc. And we'd work very logically on each and it all made sense. If I practiced 1 hour/day, I knew to spend 10 minutes on exercises, 20 on chords/scales, 20 on the music, etc. Just seemed normal and organized.

Is piano that difficult to teach? I can pick things up pretty fast - the classical guitar playing helps a bit with notation, rhythm, etc., but I need a teacher that's somewhat organized and can communicate what the plan is. So far it's like I'm just doing X, Y, & Z without knowing exactly why or how I should spend my practice time. Teachers must have a plan in their heads, but it sure seems like let's try this and that and the other. That's just how it feels.

Now I have no problem following direction at all. In fact it's explicit direction I seek! I have no problem if the teacher uses 1 book or 10 books. Everyone is different, so that doesn't matter to me. But I DO need to know in either case what it is that we're trying to achieve and how I should spend my time. After a lesson I should not be left wondering, but I should know precisely. I have no problem being told what to do like a kid. But it seems the opposite is happening.

So what's the deal? How do you teach adults? What can I do differently? One teacher was from a piano store/studio and the other from a local music school. Both have very good backgrounds and apparently successful students. So then I start to think it's me. Things just seem muddy instead of clear! I mean how hard can it be? I'm very open, expressive, and willing to do what it takes. I'm articulate too, but it seems I'm not heard. It's just very bizarre! Am I giving up too soon? Is there a period of mass confusion before clarity sinks in? I don't know. So far I haven't seen a method! I have played all that was assigned, and well. I'm doing my part, but not sure to what end. And it's sort of depressing.. Help!

Excellent post, burma!

I'm not a teacher but I completely understand your dilemma because, although I'm not a beginner, I'm in exactly the same position.

I too need a logical, progressive approach to my learning and I've yet to find a teacher who seems to understand this. My situation is further complicated by the fact that I live in Germany and it's difficult to find the right teacher who also speaks good English.

Structure and guidance is what I'm looking for in my lessons!

I agree, great post! It will be interesting to hear the teachers replies.

From what you write it does seem to me that the teachers you've had are good and do have plans and organisation. But maybe are not that good at comuunicating that. I did feel the same when starting out. What helped me were two things. 1) I took a theory class at the local university, which gave a general better understanding about music and really helped to get some perspective. 2) I realized that I should relax and look at things in a longer perspective then I'm used to. Such as, what progress have I made during the last semester? What did I enjoy, and what about the lessons have worked out well or not so well? When looking at it from this perspective I noticed that there was much more structure and progress then you just notice at first glance. I could for example not see very much logic in the adult method book I started with at the beginning, but only later understand how it is built up.

I think it is difficult to be clear about learning music, since all skills and theory builds up and works together, and it is not until after a while you start to see the connections and learn what questions to ask your teacher about the lesson planning and how.

Is it possible for teachers to be more clear? And to involve the adult students into the planning more? I hope so, because it would be helpful and interesting for the beginning adult student.

I think we might need a little talk about what it is like to know how to play piano, or music in general. What will we be spending our time on during the first years? What are intermediate and advanced students spending time on? There is almost an infinite number of skills that the student could be working on, so maybe a little explaining of why we are working on these skills right now would be good. Just to give a broader perspective about the learning process.

To summarize, Burma, all the pieces will make more sense as time goes by. Relax a little, and try to enjoy the jorney. If you are enjoying yourself and progressing, don't worry too much. Try to ask questions in a gentle way. Some questions might require a two hour lecture, so thats the reason the teacher is not trying to explain everything at once.

Very recognizable situation. The traditional approach of just spending a few years with a kid on a few method books and see how far you get is often not appreciated by adults with life experience and high standards for themselves. Adults are capable of moving faster on a number of dimensions than children and are used to dealing with structured situations in their professional contacts.

Teachers are often baffled how to handle adult students, especially those that want to be treated as adults.

If you can find someone who has experience teaching adults or for beginner adults someone with experience with getting adults to pass exams such as their ABRSM Grade 5 theory and practical piano exams then you at least know that they can work to an objective result within a well-defined curriculum. Grade exam syllabi are not too crazy of a way to try to structure the learning of adults who want to really learn music and give attention to pieces, technique, theory and musical understanding.

A teacher writes:

Usually it's the student who's unorganized and it's the teacher's job to help them achieve a good practice regime. If you are arriving ready-organized then you can get straight down to brass tacks which must be posture and ease of playing. That can take years to get anywhere with. You have obviously not come out of each lesson shouting Yippee! so I'd keep looking.

A suggestion from an adult piano student who used to teach high school math. Get a little notebook. About 5 minutes before the end of the lesson get it out and look at your teacher expectantly. Ask him/her to tell you exactly what you're to be working on for the next lesson and what goals you're supposed to achieve. Alternatively, you could keep your notebook out during the lesson to scribble a quick note. Having to articulate goals should help you both focus.

Or alternatively you could say "The facts ma'am, just the facts". Oh, don't forget to lick the stubble of your pencil first!

I have taught many adult students over the years. With any student, the first few lessons will feel "random", it just is until a routine gets going and the student & teacher adjust to each other. It's an adjustment time for both teacher and student. Teacher #1 sounds like she was doing a good job, did you express your concerns with her?

If you stick with a teacher a bit longer, the purposes behind all the books and activities will become obvious. I do warn my adult students about the "random" feel they may have at first, and that it will feel like I'm just throwing a bunch of books at them. After a month they always have a understanding of what we are trying to achieve and how. It is difficult to achieve a complete understanding in just one or two 30 minute lessons.

You can expect technique, theory, lesson book, performance book, and sight reading to be covered in each lesson. It sounds like teacher #1 was trying to cover these things, and probably only had a 30 minute time frame to work with? All are equally important, and although it may feel a bit "random" at first, that doesn't last long. You do get used to it and the reasons for each step will become apparent. One thing I do that helps with that new student "randomness" is to conduct the lesson in the same order for a while; 1. technique, 2. theory, 3. lesson and/or performance, 4. sight reading. All are equally important. An assignment book detailing what to focus on in each piece also does help. I also have the student practice in this order.

As you came seeking candid advice (you did, didn't you?) I must say that you've been quite unfair to both teachers.

It sounds to me like you're coming at piano like you would learning how to use a machine, like a computer, or a table saw, or sewing machine, not how to make music and learning to play artistically. In the former, you seek specific directions, in the latter, it's a process of refinement, week to week, month to month, year to year.

Anyone can learn how to play the piano as a mechanical device. Simply learn the note names and other notational meanings by rote, then put your fingers on the appropriate keys and press them down as you scan the music page, maintaining a constant speed as you read left to right across the page. That's all there is to it. As Bach said, the piano is easy - all you have to do is press the right keys at the right time and the piano plays itself!

However, if your goal is to communicate through art, to make music and have it affect your listening audience, then learning to play will be a constant, lifelong adventure, and the teacher(s) is your initial guide. As is noted well above, it takes time for a teacher & student to gain rapport and learn how to communicate with each other. Two lessons is simply not enough. I suggest a minimum of 12 lessons is actually required for the student to learn how to read the teacher and vice versa.

Burma, I hope you take this post as a positive suggestion for you to figure out what it is you're trying to learn, not as a negative flame, even though I have been direct.

As you are in the Boston area, I can assure you that there are several thousand fine piano teachers available. Best of luck in your search and musical journey.

Bach was speaking of the organ. He would never have said that of any other keyboard instrument.

This describes me pretty well too, heavily influenced by my background in math and computers. Piano lessons took a bit of getting used to for me. My teacher would tell me the same thing as yours did -- "You're overthinking this."

I found that it helped to stop expecting this to be like a computer programming course where they give you a syllabus, you follow step-by-step, you get a complete understanding of each topic before you move on to the next, and you come out of it knowing a new programming language. Rather, I'm starting to accept that I won't understand everything the first time I hear about it. And I won't be able to do everything correctly the first time I try it. And I won't always know immediately how it all fits into the big picture.

So I'm thinking of this more like I'm immersing myself in another culture. Some things you just let flow over you and seep into your consciousness, and trust that they will eventually become part of you and make sense. It's much less frustrating and a lot more fun that way -- a real adventure!

But to make that work, I think you need to have a real trust in your teacher -- that they're giving you what you need when you need it. If you come out of lessons feeling frustrated and like you didn't learn anything, you'd better keep searching.

BTW, great suggestion by -Frycek on using a notebook to write down your goals at each lesson.

It's difficult to comment without actually having been present during the trial lessons - so just a few general points:

The first few lessons with any teacher will inevitably be taken up by the teacher exploring the student's capabilities and expectations and the student getting to know how the teacher works.

Communication must be two way. The teacher isn't a mind reader.

Also, my personal view is that, at least for me, a lesson which is only 30 minutes long presents real problems - there is often just too much to cram into such a limited time. My own opinion is that (at least for me) a lesson should be 45 or 60 mins.

Never? Are you sure? Did you ask him?

BTW, I thought he was speaking about the harpsichord at the time. Of course, he couldn't have been speaking about the piano, as it hadn't been invented. Now I'll have to go back to my Schweitzer to check the quote. Darn.

Not invented!? At the end of his life Bach was an agent for a piano dealer. That would have been kinda difficult if they didn't exist!

Hi Burma,

I'm an adult beginner too, nevery played before, 44 yo. I need structure too, and in fact I attribute a lack of structure as the main reason I have failed to learn the guitar over the years. It's my fault, I know, but my guitar teachers always seemed random and haphazard and lacking in methodology.

The good news is that piano methods are much more developed and logically graded. My teacher took a couple of lessons to evaluate my ability and what I knew already, and those first two lessons did seem a bit random. But as soon as she had a handle on my abilities, we quickly settled into a very logical graded program.

I'm in Piano Adventures, the kids version, and I love it. In my case, the kid orientation doesn't put me off at all. So what if there are little cartoons and stuff - I need some levity in my life too. I started with 2B, and now am finishing up 3A, excited to move to 3B.

To keep things fresh, we also work from John Thompson (just finishing book 1 this week!), as well as Easy Classics to Moderns, Alfred Adult All in One (just finished Guantanemera at the beginning of book 2), as well as Hanon and scale practice each week.

Nothing revolutionary in this approach, but challenging and super rewarding as I move through the journey of learning to play.

Of the two teachers, pick the one you communicated best with, and you feel most comfortable being around. They both seem professional to me. Then mention your need for structure, and pick a method that your teacher believes in.

Best wishes to you ---

I'd like to highlight some things after reading OP, hopefully to get some answers from teachers afterward.

I heard similar from friends in the past. The most effective way to study an instrument with a teacher is for the teacher to have a general plan of what kinds of skills he wants to give and how he's going to do it, and that takes form within lessons through what he observes and instructs. What makes it powerful is if the student then practices those things all week. It is not just a matter of practices given pieces, exercises, or scales, but what to focus on. That is the part that wasn't happening: the purpose and focus were not there, so the student could only practice in a general way.

There are some reasons that this seems to happen with adult students the most. We hear from teachers that when they do give such instructions, they are ignored; also that we don't practice a lot. The expectation isn't there. Also, adults have a poor reputation so that better teachers may not want to take us, so we may end up with someone who doesn't know how to plan lessons that way. For certain, the idea of practicing toward a purpose is constantly expressed for child students, so this is not a novel idea. Also, plenty of teachers do also do this for any student.

Is it a matter of matching a student who wants to really work with a teacher toward goals, with a teacher who teaches this way? Where does a student look? How does the student present his or her wishes? What should the student look for, and what red herrings that don't matter should the student NOT look for?

The advice to take notes is a good one: but something noteworthy has to be there to note.

The idea that it's not like math is also important. One of the most frustrating things that teachers relate is that some of the deepest teaching doesn't appear to be that way. Something that seems frivolous and unimportant might actually have something serious behind it, if the student will trust it. Another recent thought is that music teachers are also artist, who act intuitively as well as deliberately, and teaching may be the same. I wonder whether, if a teacher has to explain everything, the teaching process might even be interfered with in some way.

So maybe a different question: how can you tell? When is the feeling of flopping around that the OP described not a warning sign of anything - other than maybe that these piano teachers are not like the guitar teacher?

I hate to say it John but maybe you're just the kind of misinformed musician the OP's trying to avoid? First you misquote Bach then are ignorant on the history of the piano!

The quote I know is not specific about the actual instrument (whether organ, harpsichord or any of the other keyboard instruments) - "It's easy to play any musical instrument: all you have to do is touch the right key at the right time and the instrument will play itself."

It was reported by someone called J.F. Köhler. Bach replies to a compliment about his organ playing - "There is nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right notes at the right time, and the instrument plays itself." My source is Spitta, I don't know about you.

Oh, come on. You don't hate to say it at all. You live for these moments!

The modern piano didn't come around until the 1850s. Bach was well decomposed by then. Christofori had invented the basic mechanism and Bach had tried out a prototype of Silbermann's in the 1830s. He reportedly didn't like it. At least according to one source, 3 years before he died, Silbermann made enough improvements that Bach accepted the instrument. It had the same relationship to the modern piano as the Wright Brothers' airplane does to a 747.

This is a bit harsh KBK. I disagree. Does every teacher have to know every detail to be good/informed teachers? I am sure John just simply remembers a quote vaguely, but thinking it would help the OP. If teachers have to be absolutely certain when giving advices, this forum can’t be as lively. I’m not against you. I’m not for John. I just hate this kind of comments in the Teacher Forum.

Teachers should be well respected by students and other teachers alike. One or two minor errors in a lifelong journey can’t be that significant, or misinformed. I enjoy this thread very much, until this happens... quite distasteful. It breaks my heart.

You're exaggerating a bit there (in fact Cristofori's mechanism was highly sophisticated) but what does it matter? Bach played piano, harpsichord and clavichord - the remark was concerning his organ playing. He was making a very valid point, quite lost on the misquoters.

And that's exactly why I started taking lessons last year, after having self-taught for many, many years. Just what I needed!

I think the "randomness factor" and obviously getting used to a teacher (and the teacher to the student) is very true. The lessons have all been 60 minutes - anything less is not enough IMO. So that's not the issue. Now I'm not one to give up easily, and I have some musical background from playing classical guitar. I had a great classical guitar teacher as I said in my original post. And that's what I seek for the piano too. It just seems hard to find.

The issue too is that lessons seem to be "semester-based". You can do 1-2 trial lessons and then you have to pay up the $1000K+ for the semester and commit. And that's a scary proposition if you don't feel right from the start. I think what you say is what I seek - communicating to the student better.

I don't know how I've been "unfair". To me it's absolutely critical for a teacher (and student too) to be organized and a good communicator. I have tried my best to be clear and focused in my communication. If they can't communicate what they are doing and what they want from you, what's the point?

Why you equate me needing/wanting organization, clear communication/direction, etc. with approaching learning the piano like a machine eludes me. A teacher NEEDS to give specific directions, or else why bother? After all, I'm not there to pick up "vibes". Sure there are intangibles, but they are part of something. I can learn on my own going through method books. But I will also learn bad habits, miss out on many things a teacher observes and adds, etc. And see the example I gave regarding my classical guitar teacher. There was nothing mechanical about it.

Yes I am in the Boston area. That means 1000+ teachers, all super-qualified, but in reality it's trial and error. I also need to commit $1000K after 1-2 trial lessons due to the semester-system they employ frequently around here, so you can see why I'm a bit on the fence.

I think most adults DO over think. I won't say it's not a problem (as opposed to children). But I've been very upfront with both teachers. I said I don't want shortcuts, I don't need "feel-good" tunes right away, etc. I told them I'm willing to put in the work to do things right. Teach me like you would a kid - don't skip or think I need to be happy fast in other words. I will listen and follow your directions very well. And I have. I understand what I'm playing, etc. I'm not playing above my head in other words. I understand what I'm playing, but I'm not sure why I'm doing it. A lot of it seems redundant. And I've said this to them, and they say, don't worry, just play. Now that's just not an acceptable answer to me. Yes, sure they are feeling things out. But let me know that. I want to know that if I'm playing out of 4 books, that there is a reason for down the road - 6 months, 1 year, whatever. I want to know what to practice - don't just tell me do as much as I can, etc. And from the 4 books - 2 teach things differently for instance. It's like using two teachers! So that can be confusing. Each book starts out differently and focuses a bit differently. So it's just plain bizarre! There simply doesn't seem to be a method to this. That's the frustration. If I ask, I'm told I'm over thinking, etc.

John, the OP wrote a lengthy post, and when that happens, essential things have a way of getting buried. This student has had lessons before in classical guitar, which is not a frivolous thing. His expectations are not dissimilar to my own thoughts about music lessons, and probably even close to how you teach. I am struck in particular that he is stressing teacher expectations in practising. My gut feeling is that an anology to sewing machine instruction is off, simply because this person has had lessons before.

We know from PW that lessons come in many stripes. While two lessons are not enough, it is possible that there is fire where there is smoke. If one doesn't know how to find a good teacher then it is possible to get into that situation more than once. After that you are labelled a "teacher hopper".

I tried to ask some questions of teachers in my other post.

[this response after reading p. 1]

No! Let's all get along! John's opinions count just as everyone's. I never said the teachers were misinformed - just that they lacked a clear methodology - or at least they couldn't/didn't present it to me yet. They are very qualified and great players. But that doesn't make them great teachers.

I spoke a month or so back with someone from the New England Conservatory. He had the right idea and was very explicit. At $100/hour though, I had to pass. But I have to believe there are just as good teachers at half the price. The hard part is in finding them. Structure is important.

You're probably right. I was struggling to find an analogy which expressed the difference between mechanical learning and artistic learning. Some days are not my best!

Don't worry 'bout me'n John. I just can't resist rattling his cage!

Certainly, but no teacher can give specific directions without knowing the student.

Playing the piano is a very complex brain/body activity. There are many aspects to playing the piano, and teachers need to identify each person's strengths and weakness regarding those aspects before a lesson plan can be created. There is no one-size-fits-all, especially so for someone like you who has had previous musical education.

To give an example of one of those various aspects, at the first lesson I ask students to play a very simple piece, often just five notes in a row played with the five fingers. What I am looking for is hand posture and finger independence, two key aspects that vary greatly among beginners.

A new student who naturally exhibits good hand posture and finger independence will have a somewhat different lesson plan than a student whose hands do not naturally fall into correct hand posture, and/or who has poor finger independence.

The pieces your second teacher had you play were likely geared towards identifying those aspects, and your natural strengths and weaknesses.

As others have said, that takes time to discern.

I would be very concerned if a teacher did not take the time to first learn about you (a process that takes a few lessons to do that), but rather launched into some standard method and lesson regimen that is given to all students with little regard as to where you as an individual fit in.

Such a teacher may make you feel good because you are getting the quick direction you want, but without knowing you that route may in the long run prove to be not what you are looking for.

Give or take 100 years

Btw, seamstresses have been known to produce veritable works of art. It's all in the eye of the needle, the say.

This particular kettle of fish is probably too complicated to stir in any case.

Oh, yeh, every now and then, KBK has a bad day, and who ever happens to be posting is in his headlights gets a taste of his pen! We're all used to it.

Burma, so you reject a teacher who wants you to become a pianist (which means an artist who plays the piano), a teacher who for all we know is fully prepared to achieve this, only because she doesn’t show you the Gantt chart for the precise path to achieve this? With an SLA perhaps?

Piano playing involves innumerable dimensions, such diverse as physiology, neurology, mechanics, mathematics, psychology, esthetics, history, and others I even can’t enumerate. You develop your abilities in all those dimensions at the same time, in each with a different speed. Also, they are all interrelated. Also, they all interactively respond to all kinds of feedback. Also, as you progress as a pianist, your needs, skills, and attitudes continuously change at all levels, from the desire to better play a grace note with your fourth finger to developing more interest in, say, Chopin’s music or jazz improvisation for example.

What would be the purpose of planning for all this? And why not following such plan, if it existed, would be detrimental to you? What bad happens if your teacher says that you should step back because your legato thirds are inadequate and that was not envisaged in the plan?

I’m not a teacher, I’m an adult beginner and also a very organized and disciplined person with a scientific background. But it never occurred to me to demand from my teacher a plan for my artistic development as a pianist. Which of course doesn’t mean that one should be disorderly during the practicing session, for example. And I do have a notebook and make notes during the lesson. But these are separate issues we are not talking about.

Sorry to say that, but you’ve perhaps lost the best teacher you might have, only because you were frustrated at not being provided with something which was completely unnecessary and uncalled for. Just my humble opinion.

The differences between teaching adults and children is a separate topic which perhaps deserves a separate thread.

Now, that's a typo first class!

I think the point the OP is making is that he wants to be 100% sure before forking out $1000 up front. Don't blame him.

While some teachers require whole semester payment up front, there are also many teachers who require monthly payment only, with maybe 2 weeks notice for quitting. Perhaps you should look for those teachers with shorter term requirements so you can feel more at ease with having enough time to build a rapport with them before getting "stuck" for a semester.

I think the key thing the OP is looking for is better communication from the teacher, not just a structured lesson plan. The teachers might have had good reasons asking him to try many different things and books in a random fashion in the first few lessons to feel him out. But if they had explained to him why they did what they did, making sure he understands that this is their way of trying to feel him out so they can focus what how to best teach him based on his potentials and shortcomings, he would have been happy to oblige to follow along and not questioning why as much.

I think some teachers may be more used to having a teaching relationship with younger students where they're not as inquisitive on the "why" and are more acceptance of just receiving instructions without thinking too much into it, and putting faith on the teacher completely. But this type of relationship may not work well for some adult. So if the teacher can recognize this and spend more effort in making sure the adult understands why things are done the way they are, it would go a long way in making the adult student less critical of the teacher's teaching ability.

Burma, I don’t know if it’s me, forgive me if it is, but you sound a little too uptight. Take it easy. Relax. Give your teacher & yourself a few months. Even if the teachers you mentioned aren’t the best, I suppose studying with one of them for a few months can’t hurt your piano journey all that bad.

I am a student, only been studying with a teacher for 2 months. I know it’s personal but let me share my experience.

She hasn’t taught adult students before. The first lesson was 45 minutes. We sat down and talk for about 20 minutes or so. I presented what I’ve been doing. She looked through nervously and clumsily trying to figure out where I am. The remaining of lesson, I played for her what I can. She assigned scales and a new practice piece. Then suggested I start Piano Adventures level 3B. I’ve never done Piano Adventures before, but through a lot of study here and research online, I kind of have an idea 3B is pretty advanced. It can’t be right. But anyway, 1 practice piece and a Cmaj. 2 octave scale? I can do that just fine on my own. I sensed she was nervous not having any adult students before. But her suggestion of 3B was a bit troubling to me.

After lesson, I complained to my wife, “This teacher isn’t that good teacher I envisioned through tons of advices and suggestions I learned online (she doesn’t know PW)”. She said, “Give it a try, after 6 months or so, and you still feel the same, find a new one”. I nodded.

I posted my question here again asking how Piano Adventures 3B compare to Alfred Adult series. I received lots of suggestions. I ordered Piano Adventures from 1 – 3B and went to work. I reviewed level 1 on my own and suggested we start at the beginning of 2, level 2A.

2 months later, I can’t be happier. The last 2 months, each lesson, we get to know each other better. She’s more comfortable now and not as reserved. I’m more comfortable and not as nervous. She becomes clearer and clearer what she wants me to do. She suggests I can do Bach in a few months. That tells me she’s starting to have a feel for my ability. I become happier and happier knowing she might not be the best teacher out there, but the best one I want to study with, at least for another couple years.

This forum is the best place for us piano students but the teacher image we form through top notch professionals here may lead us to believe real world teachers are the same. Sometime I even think it’s too good to be true, everything is precise here. There’s no margin for errors. If you’re looking for such a teacher in Boston, good luck! Either you can’t find one, or you’ll end up broke. That doesn’t mean this other nice teacher my friend’s kids are taking lessons from aren’t good or as good.

Also, you don’t have to commit to Studios going the semester route. There are plenty of good teachers in Boston that do monthly payments.

Again, being an "artist" doesn't mean you are disorganized. In fact I have yet to meet a successful artist who is disorganized in his art. And you are making excuses for planning. Why not just leave it up in the air, huh?.. Of course nobody can plan far out, but a little planning and communication go a long way towards achieving specific goals. This is what learning is about. But most humans have a hard time planning and communicating. I just expect more from teachers...

Perhaps, but personally, I don't think the OP gives himself and the teachers enough time.

Honestly, if I have to explain to new staff members joining our team everything behind what we are going to do, I will either send him/her to other managers to train, because that’s not my style, or they will think I’m out of my mind stuffing them all this crab way over their heads.

Train them just enough, short, to the point without much elaborate instructions. Let them do it, learn and then train some more. As they move along, they will figure things out on their own too, and will definitely come back with lots of questions. That’s when the real training starts.

This pretty much sums it up! Good post!

I'm not uptight as a person - it may come across like this because I'm frustrated. I'm not new to music or music lessons, so I'm going on experience (which was positive), and I need to trust my instincts a bit if I don't have anything else to go on, no? I live in Boston - not exactly the woods when it comes to music, right? One would think it would be easy to find someone without having to commit to a semester, $$$$$, and blind faith. So naturally I am a bit hesitant - who wouldn't be? What can I lose? Not sure. Maybe nothing. Like you say, I may just stick with it and see in 4 months. But here's an interesting observation. The two teachers differ so much in technique. And who's right and who's wrong? Are they both right? How so? So in the end, if I don't stick with this teacher, and I learned things the wrong way, I can very well lose. That just struck me as odd - the technique being so different when it comes to hand placement, fingering, etc. Because it's so important.

So what should I do? 1 trial and then commit to 4 months at $1300 based on blind faith? Just say OK? Seems a bit risky. What's wrong with trying a few teachers?

Burma, none of us think you’re wrong, or right for that matter. We are different and just trying to see your post through our own mind, thought process, experience etc… Look at these as other options you can choose to take. $1,300 for a 4-month semester is way too expensive. I’d surely quit even if he/she is the best teacher. You don’t have to go back to those other teachers if it’s that expensive but 2 lessons isn’t enough time for anyone to organize, as you prefer, and definitely not enough time for you to really tell if those teachers are even not good. I live in metro Boston. I know our area. There are definitely other options.

Piano isn’t easy. Never met anyone, no matter how advanced, who thinks it’s easy. I suppose this also includes finding and studying with a good teacher. You should have known that already, if not, I hope you do now through this huge thread you created.

Great thread by the way.

You should schedule a trial lesson with a third teacher.

Please, relax. Actually, if the teachers you met seem acomplished, and have successful students, you will likely learn how to play pretty well by following their advise. If they have some kind of univeristy degree it is not that likely that their technique is terribly wrong. Nevertheless, I do totally understand your concerns, and the best thing would be to try one more teacher. That will at least give you a slightly more to compare to, and you will not be thinking "What if". There is no reason to sign up for a whole semester unless you feel totally comfortable about it. Just take your time searching. You will learn best from a teacher that you do trust and feel comfortable with, and I just have a feeling that there are teachers that would match you better then the two you have tried.

Good luck, and enjoy the searching!

One thing that strikes me is Burma's wish for instructions in practicing. I think it is possible that teachers are not used to students practising as instructed right off the bat. Maybe that's why it seems odd. If you are told what to practice, what to focus on, and how to practice in order to best accomplish things, then practising is extremely effective. If you are simply given material to do out of a book, then you risk approaching it like a self-learner, and the next lesson will consist partly of correcting what you did. Also, practising is different because you cannot focus the same way as you work.

Burma, am I right that your main concern lies at the practising end of things - your part? Or do you also need the teacher to tell you their teaching plan? When you were given these different books with opposing approaches, did the teacher tell you how to approach them (his/her way)?

I don't get the idea that a teacher cannot give instructions until she knows the student better. Surely there are basic things that the instrument requires which is common to all students. If you are assigning material, then are there not certain things that you want to see accomplished by working on that material?

The teacher very well might have explained that, but it, like many things in the relative whirlwind of the first lesson, could have been not heard, or was forgotten.

In what manner?

It sounds to me like Burma is a concrete - sequential learner who is taking lessons from random - abstract teachers. It could be that simple.

Master teachers or artists who work toward interpretation of the masters classical music in performance are not actually the best teachers for beginners basically because their awareness is about the teaching of the music, not necessarily about how the student learns from a pedagogy viewpoint or educational psychology. Their teaching is usually best when the student has attained quality instruction and has become an independent and knowledgable musician ready for advanced levels of instruction. Hours of disciplined practice might be their criteria of their students.

Finding a teacher interested in pedagogy and the art of teaching piano would be a much better fit for your situation. Someone who focuses on education a rank beginner through their "learning musician" years. The developing of the musician.

Can I ask Burma about how he/she goes about searching for a piano teacher? What are the most important characteristics wanted in your teacher? Credentials? Their reputations?

From the $ quoted in the topic, I do think you are paying way too much for your piano lessons as an adult beginner. You might list for us exactly how well you play as an adult beginner so that teachers here (some who have replied here are not teachers) could respond a little better to you. If you are at Adult Book 1 level it seems incompatable with your keen interest in technique and Bartok and other things you have mentioned. The comments you made about wanting specific practicing instructions is really understandable and commendable.

But, you also seem to be a "worrier" and maybe "hypervigilant" about what is happening during lessons. Do you think that is compounding your problem? If you are extremely tense your teacher may be wondering about their decision to work with you.

I think teachers do their best work when they are allowed to teach as their intuition, experience and inspiration sees fit to respond to you. The teacher must be himself and you must be yourself. You must be willing to trust and follow and then after a legitimate amount of time look to see what is being accomplished and what progress is being made. Then you can truthfully see if the "fit" with your teacher is complementary to both of you. At this point, your writing seems to be second guessing and dissatisfied with every step each of your teachers have taken with you according to your written comments here.

If you are looking to get to the bottom of the problem you are encountering, you must take a clear, realistic look at your self and see what you are contributing to the problem - and also - what you are contributing to the solution.

I hope that you can see and hear something that encourages you to a best situation for yourself. From my point of view, if I knew you were my student writing this about me, I would realize that there is not much I can do about it until you faced me with the situation and told me what was on your mind. I would also expect you to trust me and follow my directions for at minimum a trial period. At some point we would either work the problem out to mutual satisfaction or I would find you too stressful to work with and cut the strings that bound us together in dysfunction. You would be happy to be rid of be. Bad experience for both of us, I think.

So, please think of your contributions to what you are trying to resolve and take ownership of your part in this. As piano teachers we don't need the exercise ourselves to try to persuade you one way or the other. You speak rather harshly of your recent piano experiences and the possibility is that our suggestions will not be what you want to hear.

I'm sorry you are having a difficult time getting connected to a piano teaching mentor you can appreciate.

Just a note for those who wonder about the "random-abstract" vs. "concrete-sequential" dichotomy. Here's a link to a thread from awhile back in which that model was discussed:

random-abstract, concrete-sequential, no base in psychology

It is also true that the person who thought up this "model" of learning has 4, not 2, possibilities, so even if the "model" had a basis in legitimate research, which it apparently doesn't, using only 2 of the 4 possibilities to characterize the "model" would be incorrect.

Cathy

Guilty as charged. I’m not a teacher and always try disclose as such in my posts. I will try not to stick my nose in again. Sometimes though, I just feel so compelled to share, speak my mind. Please ignore my posts if you don’t find it helpful or misleading. Now that I think about it, I’m not sure if what I said even appropriate. If it’s not too late, please let me take them all back.

We've talked about this many, many, many times. All of post us everywhere. You, as well as me, are welcome to post in the teachers forum.

Cathy - who is not a *piano* teacher but who has many, many, years of teaching, in public schools, colleges, and one-on-one turoring

This is a classic statement of truth. Thank you Betty.

From what I've read, I am guessing that the OP is an absolute beginner and wishes to be treated as such. He has stated that he would be happy to be taught like a child. Bartok is the teacher's idea. I would see an interest in technique to be a wish for what is usual for a beginner - learning the proper foundations.

What I read in terms of wishes seemed normal to me and what I would ask for myself. The wish to be told what to focus on in practising, and how to practise, is normal. This is so especially if you have had lessons with a good teacher before, and know how efficient it is to follow instructions.

On the basis of what I have read, there is no reason to think that the OP is unreasonable or over-demanding. He may be a teacher's nightmare, or he may be just the student that a great teacher is looking for.

We draw far too many conclusions in this forum based on far too little information.

I would like to mention that I ask students of ANY age who start with me—NOT as beginners—to give me the courtesy of a month's time to fully diagnose their strengths and weaknesses. Here are some of the difficulties I face in such situations:

1) Students will play something, either by memory or with music, that is rather impressive, but they are not reading the music and have reading skills that are very low. Without a couple lessons to probe with materials they have not seen, I have no "baseline".

2) Students will come with no music and nothing prepared so that I have nothing at all to go on for evaluation. As above, I need to probe in lessons to find out where they really are.

When I attempt to find out where we can start, at a comfortable level, not pushing too hard but not wasting time playing things that are too easy, it takes me a couple weeks before I get a solid feel. I am looking first to get a good feel of reading level, since that is the most important thing to me and what I stress the most. Reading, of course, means a lot more than pushing down the right keys. Are there rhythm problems? Are there glaring technical problems (such as very faulty fingering) that allow some music to be read fairly fluidly but that throw a monkey wrench into other styles of music? Has the sustain pedal been mastered? Can one hand be played louder than the other?

And so on...

I'm not a beginner but I'm most firmly in your category 1 above!

Gary, have you considered moving to Europe to live, specifically northern Germany? ...I guess not - it's no Southern Florida!

Seriously, I read posts like yours, and by other teachers in these forums and, like the OP, I feel so frustrated that I've been continually unsuccessful in my efforts to find a teacher here in Germany (I've tried several) who adopts your excellent - essential! - approach when evaluating and devising a learning scheme for an adult. I've never had a teacher who has taken the trouble to identify and rectify my weaknesses, in the way you've outlined.

..."the courtesy of a month's time to fully diagnose their strengths and weaknesses"? - if only!

I don't have a lifetime of trial and error ahead of me and I'm seriously thinking about giving up the search. Instead, relying on my own maturity and the many sources of help and advice on line - most notably here - and going it alone. Any thoughts?

As I understand Betty's statement, she says that teachers will be better prepared to assess the aspects which are related to the OP's level and not that non-teachers are prohibited from posting on this forum.

Or am I mistaken?

Well, you will move only a few miles from the Arctic Circle!

Yes... WHAT IS IT WITH GERMAN PIANO TEACHERS!?

sorry, didn't mean to shout

Check out Peter Feuchtwanger's schedule. Are any of these within reach?
http://www.peter-feuchtwanger.de/english-version/masterclasses/index.html

Perhaps he could recommend one of his previous students who teaches in the Hamburg area? His teaching method is very sound.

What is it about American adult piano students?

I wrote about non-teachers comments only because Burma obviously thought he was talking to teachers in the piano teachers forum. I think it's a good idea for teachers to identify themselves as teachers and for other commenters to identify themselves from what ever point of view and capacity they are speaking. I would encourage that of everyone.

I was not trying to discourage nor intimidate anyone from posting. I do feel that sometimes it's hard for teachers to communicate with each other in the way that is normal for us to do as we often receive criticism from adult students about what we are saying teacher to teacher. When postings are sincere and intelligently written we all profit in the exchange. It is hidden agendas that, in my opinion, sometimes interferes with our communication about piano teaching among piano teachers. We are often put on the defensive for what we have posted about our sometimes unpopular opinions and sometimes the opposition or confrontation is quite strong.

I hope this clears up what I meant.

Betty

Thank you for expressing your agreement!

Betty

I'm not sure why you think Burma obviously thought he was talking to teachers only in this forum. I don't see any evidence of misunderstanding about this on his part in his responses. As for your suggestion about identifying one's self as a teacher or not, I don't know why one needs to do anymore than what's already in one's signature.

The rule in PW is very simple. If you're a professional in the music industry, such as dealer, teacher, technician, you must identify yourself clearly in your signature. I have no problem knowing who the teachers are in this forum just by looking at their signatures. If I don't see it in their signature, I'd assume that they're not a teacher or don't want to follow the PW rule and reveal themselves as a teacher.

Keep having to identify one's self in every post outside of one's signature as a teacher or whoever can get old and annoying to everyone pretty quickly.


I'm not sure what the point of this comment is with regard to this particular thread because the topic of this thread was actually started by an adult beginner student, so it's not even an exclusive teachers' only discussion to begin with.


If you want to have an exclusive teachers' only discussion in a thread about piano teaching among piano teachers only to avoid hidden agendas from non-teachers, you can just say so in the beginning of the thread when you start it that non-teachers' inputs are not welcomed, and I think most self-respecting non-teachers will respect your explicit wish as the OP of the thread and stay away from it. It won't keep them from viewing it, but at least it'd help make it clear that their inputs are not welcomed.

Looking back over the first pages of this thread, the vast majority of the respondents to Burma did in fact identify themselves as a teacher or student either in the text of their post or their signature lines--so I'm not sure there was any confusion that needed clarification.

I do agree with you that it is a very good idea for posters on this forum to clarify if they are a teacher or not.

Burma, if I am interpreting your posts correctly, the reason you stopped at two lessons with both teachers is because that was the trial period and after that you had to commit to a semester's tuition? If so, then I think it is understandable that you would not want to make such a commitment if you did not feel entirely comfortable with the teaching style of the particular teacher.

If that wasn't the case, then I am in agreement with John and some of the others that it might have been better to give the teacher(s) a bit longer before concluding that their approach wouldn't work with you.

Maybe you could call the most promising one of them back and ask if it would be possible to continue on a week by week basis for another month to make sure that you are both comfortable with the teaching relationship before committing to an entire semester. Then you can engage in the kind of direct questioning and requests for clarification of practice strategies etc. suggested by keystring and some of the others.

jmho, from an adult beginner who teaches college but not music.

Perhaps because it is called the "Piano Teacher's Forum"?

The OP is a newbie to Piano World, with no prior posts on the Piano Teacher's Forum, and only 16 posts total on other PW forums prior to the post that started this thread.

So it could be that the OP assumed, (as I also did when I first came here), that only teachers post here, which I think is what Betty is referring to.

ps...I have no problem whatsoever with non-teachers posting here, and that matter has been settled, so lets not go there again.

This part sounds very much to me like she was just assessing where you were and what you needed.



From the technique and hand relaxation she sounds very much like what I would want in a teacher.

It is not clear whether you flatly asked: "Should I expect to practice 30 minutes a day? An hour? If I practice 30 minutes per day, how many minutes should I spend on each specific piece or exercise?"

Ask very specific questions, not general ones, and don't leave until you understand the answers.

I am an adult returner, not a beginner. I did teach a few beginning students a couple of decades ago. I tend to be the other extreme in that I over-explain. That can be worse for a student I think. Too much info.

I would suggest calling this teacher (or the other) back and explaining that you had a very positive experience with your guitar teacher and would like to duplicate that with your piano lessons, but feel you need very specific direction.

Note I said direction, not explanation. I'm not sure asking for a lot of explanation would be successful...this is a broad generalization but in my experience piano teachers do not tend to approach piano lessons the way other instrumental teachers do theirs.

For example, I have known a handful of string teachers, and they all tend to operate the same way...giving very explicit practicing directions ("practice this specific line 10 times each day in exactly this way"); and assigning exercises based on specific technical needs they see in the student ("you are having problems keeping your 3rd finger in tune...the best exercise to overcome that is number 54 in this book of viola exercises"). In my experience (wider with piano teachers than string teachers) this is NOT the way piano teachers have been taught to think about playing and practicing, in general.

I do understand, because I too am very interested in playing the piano and endlessly curious about the how and why. I am good friends with my own teacher but have limited success in getting her to verbalize details of the thought process, I think because for her it's all "in the back of her mind" and she's flummoxed by being asked to discuss it directly. She has a Master's in Pedagogy and is completing her doctorate in performance so I know it's IN THERE. I just think that's not how she thinks about studio lessons. Group classes with more structure are approached differently, with goals and lesson plans. But private lessons are more flexible.

At a minimum, I think you are entitled to specific direction on practice *minimums*...with the assurance that you will indeed "just play" more than that.

I sincerely appreciate all the input - it's what I came here for! I have read all the replies and have thought some more last night and this morning about things.

I'll try to summarize my thoughts here, in this single post, instead of replying and quoting each post above. Perhaps this will be easier to read and more clear.

I want to state from the beginning that I am very appreciative of teachers in general. I know it's a difficult job (whether it's music or science), that many times goes unappreciated. I say this mainly because both teachers I've had were good in their own way, and I am not here to say that they are bad or badmouth them in any way. Clearly they have success with many students. For whatever reasons (some stated, some maybe unknown to me), I just found them to not be a right fit for me. That's all. And while there certainly are bad teachers out there (in any field), there are bad students as well. But in this case, I don't think it's either. And my aim in posting here was (and is) to find out why I am where I am, and how to better go about finding a suitable teacher for me. I live in Boston. There are hundreds of qualified professionals here. But it's not that easy in finding the right one. Precisely BECAUSE there are so many.

Is this important for a beginner? Does it really matter in getting started? I don't know with certainty that it does. It may or may not. But it does need to feel right - the teacher student relationship is critical. Both need to feel comfortable. And I DO know that I don't need a master teacher to learn the basics. But it also depends on a person's goals, personality, experiences, etc. My goals may be very different than someone else's, as is my personality and experiences. And I've communicated my goals and musical experiences to these teachers. We got along quite well, and I even felt bad after not continuing. Why? Because they were nice people, we got on well, and I felt they were doing their best. And I was doing my best. But something didn't feel right. The things I mentioned. But I left my doors open with both of them. Both would welcome me back, and that's a good thing.

I'll give a bit more background on myself, and maybe this will help. I'm originally from Eastern Europe. Grew up there and came to the US when I was 12. My grandmother was a classical pianist, but unfortunately she passed away when I was 9. And in her later years, she could hardly play due to arthritis, etc. So I never go the chance to connect with her that way. But music was always there, as was the piano. My grandfather played piano as well, and he also wrote two books on music. All this on my father's side. For some reason, all this went through my father And when we came to the US, there was certainly no money for piano or piano lessons. The first few years weren't so easy. So I sort of left that world behind. When I was a bit older (14/15) I got into guitar since it was cheap and easy to carry around. I took lessons - classical. All was well. I had a very good instructor, so I DO know it can happen. I then went to college and the piano remained in my mind. But no time! Then started working, life got in the way, etc. A common situation for sure. Nothing original here. So now I have some time to dedicate to the instrument I've always wanted to play. Could I have taken lessons 10-15 years ago? Yes. But due to work and life circumstances, I knew I didn't have sufficient free time to put in the amount of dedication and practice that I knew I would want (and need) in order to achieve my goals of being able to play more complicated pieces. And I knew that if I didn't have the time for that dedication and practice, I'd give up after playing just basic stuff. I would not be happy with that since I'd get bored. That's just me. Very ambitious person. So now that I DO have the time, it's time to get working! So naturally it's frustrating having to wait and try. I want to get going!

Maybe because of my background, I'm used to a different way of learning. I do think the Eastern European mentality was ingrained in me, even if I came here at age 12. I've always preferred teachers who were hard and demanded discipline. No short cuts, hard work, hard practice, etc. Teachers that were a bit less laid back and more forward - not afraid to be tough or discipline a student. And I think that's what works for me. And NO, my parents didn't beat me with a ruler or anything like that They were actually were hands-off and gentle, which was good IMO. The motivation came from within. Where from, I have no clue! And I found here in the US there was/is a lot more hand holding, etc. And I think that perhaps teachers are not as comfortable with that type of directness. And maybe these teachers never had adult students that share my profile. I don't know.

Someone said in a post:



And I think this is a good observation and goes hand-in-hand with my mentality, which I've tried to describe above.

Also from that same post:



And I have to agree.


Betty's post was excellent. In finding a teacher, I would say the main avenues for searching have been from either music schools or music stores, and their subsequent recommendations. The most important characteristics? I suppose the main one is not credentials, but their experience with adult beginners to piano, especially highly driven ones. Other than that, like I said above. I'd prefer a teacher that's very upfront and direct with me. Not afraid to correct me or even be harsh if necessary. I don't like or want sugarcoating. I don't want shortcuts. I want them to be clear in their communication to me. Clear in what the focus is week in, week out. Both in the lesson and for practice. Sequential learning makes sense to me. I don't know how else it would work. I can focus on 1 or 10 things. I just need to know what they are. To me this just seems normal, but maybe it's not as simplistic as I make it? Honestly I don't know. I am not a worrier at all during a lesson. So I can say for sure that doesn't compound the problem. I may sound all "militaristic" or "machine-like" or whatever, but I'm a very calm and shy person in fact. But in learning, that's how I learn best. I may sound like a machine, but I'm not at all. I hope this post didn't give that impression.

So having said all of this, I'm still not sure how to proceed. Having read this, what do you think? I'm honestly very "coachable", and I'd like to think a great student for the right teacher. I do my work, etc. I pay attention to detail, etc. I don't slack around, I understand things pretty fast, etc. These certainly cannot be bad things! Now of course I have to be careful not to inundate a teacher with all this information. I don't want to seem like a crazy, demanding, and intimidating student. In reality I'm not. And I have good social skills and am a sensitive person. From an Internet post, it's hard to perhaps see that.

I know this was a quite lengthy post. Thanks for bearing with me!

PS. With both teachers I told them exactly how much time I have to practice a day - 2 hours. I told them that is how much time I can put in, etc. After each lesson I asked them from all the material we worked on today (which I understood - maybe not the intent, but I understood the material), what should I focus on? Because if they just say play 9 pages from here, 6 from there, and do this and that, I can certainly do that, but w/o a clear understanding. I mean I can zip through maybe 20+ pages and do a lot more. But I'd rather learn the first 9 pages properly, and not speed through things when I need to focus on important things like posture, hand relaxation/positioning, sight-reading, tone production, etc. And I can't focus on 10 things at once either. It seems counter-productive. I don't know - they seemed sort of laid back I suppose. Do as much as you can type of attitude.

The guy I mentioned in another thread (on Schonberg's book), his father took him to about a dozen piano teachers in Chicago before settling on one. The guy ended up in Schonberg's The Great Pianists and he always used to say that's why.

That's a great book - not sure I remember the pianist you mention. My father is so non-musical and hands-off, you'd have a hard time believing his parents were musicians and hands-on. Or it makes perfect sense. I told him once (jokingly of course) that the reason I'm late to the game is because he didn't beat me like Beethoven's father..!

Rocket88 posted: "Perhaps because it is called the "Piano Teacher's Forum"?

The OP is a newbie to Piano World, with no prior posts on the Piano Teacher's Forum, and only 16 posts total on other PW forums prior to the post that started this thread.

So it could be that the OP assumed, (as I also did when I first came here), that only teachers post here, which I think is what Betty is referring to."

Thank you, Rocket 88!

That was exactly my purpose. I did think Burma should be aware of his resources.

And, the signature is the perfect place for letting each other know who we are - ie. "identification". It will travel along in our postings with us and does not need to be written in every time.

Betty

The word PRACTICE keeps coming up. The OP stressed several times about wanting to know what to focus on. It almost appears to be a foreign concept and that's leaving me feeling a little weird. If somebody wants to learn how to play an instrument, there is a synergy between the lesson in the studio, and practicing at home. Teachers are always talking about skills they want their students to develop. They tell the parent to watch that the child has good posture, or produces a good tone, or plays without tension, or places the hands directly on the right keys, or works on timing. We read about teachers telling parents the goals that they have for the children. So isn't exactly the same thing true for a student of any age? It's the silence that is flumoxing me. If you practice only 1 hour/day then at the end of a month you have practiced 30 hours, and had maybe 3.5 hours of lessons (coat taken off, etc.). So why is all the emphasis on what happens during the lessons, and nothing at all on instructions to take home?


Post after post, teachers have been describing their practice reports that the kids have to bring in duly signed by the parent. Repeatedly we read about the assignment book in which the teacher has noted what should be practised, what to watch for. If this is done, why should a beginner student have to ask? Something seems off here. Or I'm not getting something.

A while back a friend asked her newish piano teacher to work more seriously. That teacher was able to articulate specific goals and instructions with the goals: timing and counting was the weakness that she wanted to address first. While the student was assigned a piece, she was also told what to focus on: timing and counting. She was also told how to practice in order to bring this about - HS, then HT, if the counting goes, back to HS, etc.

If a teacher cannot do this - how can a student learn properly? Practising is the larger part of the equation because we do not have daily lessons. I barely see this being addressed. I would have thought a student wanting such instructions would be commended.

I also do not accept the idea that piano teachers don't do that kind of thing, because enough piano teachers have shown that they do precisely that. So what is going wrong? Is it that the OP hasn't given it enough time? Or is looking in the wrong place? To me something in many of these responses do not add up.

As usual: NAPT.

You wrote a book.

Some points:

The worst part for me as a teacher now, and once upon a time as a student, is that very mediocre teachers are able to promote themselves well, and through this they gain a reputation that is not really quite deserved, and they attract students throught this reputation. And because of this, I was almost completely ruined as a pianist. I've told my story other times and so won't go into it unless someone asks for specifics.

In my opinion, extremely good teachers are rare, and extremely dedicated students are rare. When they find each other, it is often as much luck as anything else. Furthermore, any of us who have had the priveledge of studying with a very fine teacher will probably agree that we would not fully appreciate what we had if we had not experienced the teaching of others who knew far less.

True. But we never know which one of our students may be the rare student who decides to continue with music for a lifetime. Furthermore, the more serious you are, the more critical technical advice becomes, since the wrong advice not only will stop you from playing really well, it may cripple you.

I'm trying not to be over-critical here, but I am frequently stunned by what students are taught be other well-meaning teachers. So if you are very serious, someone who works well with "hobby-players" is not for you. In addition, although name and degrees and high prices guarantee nothing, I suspect you will have a greater chance of finding what you want with a teacher who is "pricy". There are, of course, no guarantees.

The hand-holding part, for me, comes from pressure to make lessons "fun". The unfortunate fact is that those of us who teach full time and pay our bills from teaching find that if person A just wants to have fun, person A will move to another "feel-good" teacher in a heartbeat if we try to push, so in the real world most of us have to balance what we know is best against what our students demand that we be. We live in a time when we are competing against Guitar Hero and when attention span is geared towards instant success. You might be surprised to find out that some of us can turn into very hard task-masters if we are given PERMISSION to work this way. When I am preparing someone for a career in music, I probably approach your European model. For instance, I once told a teen—who swore to me that getting into a music school was his number one goal—to go home and not come back for another lesson ever again without practicing. I am still in touch with this man (who is now in his 50s), and he has told me that my saying that was one of the most important lessons he ever learned in life.

In other words, even IF you tell a teacher, I'm ready to work like mad, and you can be very very strict with me, it might take a month or two of hard work on your part before the teacher knows that you really mean it. Because many say those words but do NOT mean it and quit when they are asked to hold up their part of the deal.

I work for a music store, and why I chose to do this is a long and complicated tale. In general, I think you are less likely to find what you are looking for in such a place. Teachers are often hired for how much money they can earn for the store, and that means that if teacher B will settle for less of the cut, he may be chosen over teacher A, who is a far better teacher. The problem is the profit-bottom-line.

One observation: adults tend not to trust easily, and with very good reason. I understand this. However, I have been immensely frustrated by adults who were unable to trust in where I wanted to go long enough to experience that I do indeed KNOW what I'm doing. Recently I had an adult become extremely vexed at me for saying that I could not teach what I needed to teach when bombarded, continuously, with questions about what was going to happen in several months or several years. I am able to switch gears, and if you can do the same, you will have no trouble. I am capable of following directions to the letter in studying, if I respect a teacher and have confidence in where we are going. The problem: I have only had ONE teacher in my lifetime who was not very very VERY wrong about terribly important things, and I finally got that teacher after nearly being ruined by a couple others. This teacher, it turned out, was very eager to work with me, so it was a great fit. I needed someone who could teach well but could also PROVE his points through playing, and he could do that.

How easy is it to find such a teacher? In fact, it is VERY hard!!!

Gary

I know this was a quite lengthy post. Thanks for bearing with me!

PS. With both teachers I told them exactly how much time I have to practice a day - 2 hours. I told them that is how much time I can put in, etc. After each lesson I asked them from all the material we worked on today (which I understood - maybe not the intent, but I understood the material), what should I focus on? Because if they just say play 9 pages from here, 6 from there, and do this and that, I can certainly do that, but w/o a clear understanding. I mean I can zip through maybe 20+ pages and do a lot more. But I'd rather learn the first 9 pages properly, and not speed through things when I need to focus on important things like posture, hand relaxation/positioning, sight-reading, tone production, etc. And I can't focus on 10 things at once either. It seems counter-productive. I don't know - they seemed sort of laid back I suppose. Do as much as you can type of attitude. [/quote]

By music schools do you mean the colleges and universities in your area? Or for-profit lesson storefronts?

I must admit upfront I have a major 'academic' bias, but if I were you, given your description of your learning preferences and wish to find a teacher who can articulate specific instructions, I would suggest contacting the college music departments in your area and finding out what they offer in terms of what they refer to as "Community Music Programs" or "Community Music Schools."

Many if not most college and uni music departments offer these. You would be in a more structured environment (still private lessons but often with the option to take theory courses etc) and be taught by a piano pedagogy student who is under the supervision of a professor. Nice opportunities for end-of-semester juries and recitals too, in many cases.

The OP is absolutely not giving it enough time.

People learn in different ways, have wildly varied talents, abilities, control of their hands, have all types of hand size, finger width, etc, etc, and have different time availability for practicing, various (often inferior) instruments upon which to practice, some of which are unsuitable, etc.

All of these factors must be discovered by the teacher prior to developing a successful practice system for the student.

It is not "one size fits all", so lets start immediately with the same exact plan everybody gets. (In fact, I would run from a teacher who gave everyone the same plan, with no regard to individual abilities)

Instead, at the first or second lesson, this new student is a stranger to me. I need to "read" them, which takes a while.

Which brings us to the most important thing: how to practice. Practicing is a skill and an art in and of itself, and it must be taught. People are not born with that knowledge. Therefore, I do not send new students home and ask them to practice for an hour, or whatever, when few if any truly know how to practice productively. That would be irresponsible. Instead, I would rather wait a bit so I can teach them how to practice, which is far more productive for them in the long run.

As you mention, practicing is one of the very important ingredients...so I want them to get it right.

That is why, in my reading, that the OP was not given at the first or second lesson a complete practice plan including materials to practice for x number of hours a a day.

Rocket, you quoted only part of what I wrote. Some of these things are also important to me personally. I wrote about knowing what to focus on when practising. That does not mean anything fancy necessarily. I imagine that you would, in fact, give a new beginner instructions after even the first lesson. You do want him to practise something between lessons. Maybe it's just to sit properly, or remember that the key between the two black keys is D - whatever it is that you teach. Would you say that when you assign something to a beginner, you also tell the beginner to pay attention to a particular thing? Like, how can you not? If you don't, then practising is totally random.

Afaik, the OP is a beginner. He was given four books, some of them with conflicting instructions. That cannot be good. I guess I'm a bit self-centred. When I read about a student asking for instructions and not getting them, then I worry that it might happen to me. I haven't managed to afford piano lessons yet but if I do, I would not want them to be haphazard. I think it's a real worry to some of us.

Keystring, I don't know how much clearer I can make it, other than what I have already said in several posts here, which is: "I cannot and will not give a new student at the first lesson a long-range plan with detailed explanations. That comes later."

But to allay your fears, that certainly does not mean that they go home with nothing to do! (I do hope that you do not think I would do that!?).

Instead, new students go home after the first lesson with plenty to practice and study. And they are learning relevant things about playing the piano from the moment they walk into the studio.

But the big detailed plan? Later.

Rocket, there is our misunderstanding. We're not talking about a long range plan. The question is - During the week, when I practice on this particular assignment you have given me, what do I focus on?

This is super important.

The description of the guitar lessons sound similar to the kinds of lessons I know, which is why when the OP speaks of wanting to know what to focus on, I understood it in the way I just wrote it. I am used to going home with instructions to focus on a particular aspect. You're given a piece and reminded "keep the rhythm even" or whatever the focus is. NOT what the plan is for the whole year.

I suspect that there has been a major miscommunication where you thought of long range plans, and we thought of an instruction to go with a given assignment. That's why it seemed so strange to hear teachers don't do that - you were talking about something else.

Forgive me, as I have not had the time to read all the posts in this thread, so hopefully this hasn't already been asked. I could be way off-base here, but I'm not quite understanding what you are looking for when you say you want to know what to focus on. By wanting to know what to "focus" on, are you asking for direction on how to practice, not just what to practice?

For example, I generally have the student sight read at least part of each piece assigned for the next week at their lesson as much as time allows. We'll then work through a specific section or concept in each piece I think will be particularly challenging to the student, determining what the best way to practice that section would be. We 1. sight read, 2. determine one thing that will be a challenge (it can vary student to student), 3. Discuss how to practice efficiently to overcome the challenge, 4. Practice it at the lesson (can be anything from practicing slow to fast, rh alone/lh alone, rhythms, so many things it could be depending on the piece). I then expect the student to retain the practice skills week to week & learn to recognize on his own what needs to be done during his practice time to accomplish a learned piece. As the student progresses, less "practicing" is required at the lesson.

If this is what you are looking for when you say "focus", try telling your next teacher exactly what you mean. Focus is too broad, be specific.

I've had many a transfer student that had no clue how to practice efficiently ("play 3 times beginning to end, and then you're done" for example....that's not practice, if you haven't fixed anything, you haven't practiced!). How much time a student spends practicing means nothing to me. There are students that can spend hours practicing and get very little accomplished, and other students that practice much less and make better use of their time.

Off topic a bit....I've seen the same thing happening with memorization too. It's one thing to tell a student to memorize a piece, but another to teach a student how to memorize a piece.

If you said "may not be giving it enough time", I'd agree. But your "absolute" statement about his having a problem is a snap judgment on your part. On the basis of what you have written in this post, you may be a fantastic teacher, or you may be a defensive teacher with a chip on his shoulder, striking out at anyone that says anything that strikes a nerve.

The reason why I have participated so little in this forum, and may shortly disappear again, is that both teachers and students do not appear to be listening to each other. Often teachers are not listening to each other.

I like what you had to say, by the way. My gut reaction is that you *are* a good teacher, with a lot to offer all of us. But why not simply state how you teach and what your philosophies are, without assuming you know what a curious, potential student is thinking, or doing wrong, before we have barely had time to meet him?

Surely the problem of having to commit to several months of lessons after a couple trial lessons could be a very scary thing in these hard financial times. I think the OP brought up many valid points, just as *you* brought up many valid points.

No need for harsh judgments, really...

...btw, Gary, did you get my PM?

PS As mentioned in my first post in this thread I'm NOT a teacher!

Gary, you can judge my statement as a snap judgment if you like. But I said what I said because I have been down that road before, where a prospective student jumps ship before we even sail out of port.

Thus I am in agreement with John v.d.Brook on this one...



The OP has gone to two professional teachers, and done the same thing with both, i.e. given neither one enough time for the relationship to develop, which, if they truly are professional teachers, those teachers would very likely be capable of giving the OP what he wants.

And I am also in agreement with you, Gary regarding this. You wrote earlier about this need for development time in the teacher/student relationship:



No need for harsh judgments, really...

Right on. Thanks for the clarification.

Sometimes I want to just not participate on these forums because we can be passionately discussing what we think is the same topic, but words fail, or our reading and interpretation fails.

Regarding practicing, Gary wrote an excellent answer earlier on this thread about the challenges teachers have "reading" a student, and determining and then fine-tuning the amount of homework that particular student can handle without him or her quitting either because not enough homework was given, too much was given, not enough explanation of what was given was given, etc, etc,....

It all takes time to discern that. But the bottom line is its all in the communication.

I think that is true for most of us. But I have another thought on the matter. What if some of these misunderstandings are also happening between students (or parents) and teachers, but the moment passes so fast that one never gets to the bottom of it? If any of us has a lightbulb moment and that can lead to a change, wouldn't that be wonderful?

There is no panacea for clearing up misunderstandings, other than further communication, which points back to the main issue of this thread, which as I read it is the need to allow for sufficient time for the student/teacher relationship to develop.

If that investment in time and the relationship occurs, then communication to explain goals, explain how to practice this or that, and to iron out misunderstandings can occur.

But if the student quickly leaves, no communication occurs.

Which is why for the OP to leave two apparently qualified teachers after only one or two lessons is self-defeating.

Just a general comment on this: at the risk of repeating, I ask potential students to stick it out for 3 months. I find it really does take that long to refine a strong working relationship. One student & I got off to a really rocky beginning, and it took all of that time to learn how to work together. Now, he's one of my best, most engaging students. It would have been a loss for both of us had he left even after the first month.

With the last two teacher posts, yours and Rocket88's, I can see how teachers and students may think they are communicating yet largely missing each other. I wouldn't be surprised if that happened with the OP (who is the person who first brought up the question he asked of the new teachers, "What do I focus on?"). Thereafter I was mystified by the response of teachers. I think it was just that: understanding what might be meant by the question.

Looking at your question and some of what you wrote, it seems that at this moment you are thinking about the accomplishment of a piece. So the goal of the student is to produce that piece in a satisfactory manner. Everything you write about has to do with how to approach a piece, solve problems within the piece - it's the piece. I know that for many students that is the main focus of lessons and what they see as the purpose of lessons.

I'm in a different space. My purpose, when I was taking lessons, was to master playing the instrument. There would be certain skills that the teacher would want to develop in me over time, and aspects of music to learn and apply. The assigned pieces are the vehicle for bringing this about, because I need to be practicing or playing something. My instrument wasn't piano and I have only had (literally) a handful of piano lessons, but I know a few things. So I imagine that for example a piano teacher might want to develop some of the following:
- facility with keyboard geography
- posture, balance, the physical thing
- timing, tempo, meter, playing evenly, coordinating hands
- being able to play one hand louder, the other softer, voicing
- articulation (stacc., leg., portato, accents)

So I might have 4, 5, 6 things on the go as assignments, but the teacher might want me to pay attention to timing, counting - whatever her priority for me is at that time. This may be across everything that I do, or there may be something specific to a particular piece. In addition to this, there might also be the usual "something" going on in a measure of a given piece.

So the question "What should I focus on?" would be from this angle. It may happen that a teacher already gives those kinds of instructions, so the question never arises. An answer to "what should I focus on?" might be, "Pay attention to timing, sense of meter. " - and possibly some things to do to bring these skills about.

The OP had classical guitar lessons before and I assumed from how he wrote that he would have this kind of mentality. I didn't even think about it: I immediately saw that attitude. By the same token, I understand that music teachers might not get this often. Expectations come in which makes us interpret or understand a question based on our experiences. It is something that I caught on to rather late. It makes for miscommunication - and I'm still learning on that front.
-------------------------------
An addendum to this:
I have also experienced what practising will bring if you are working with a focus on such a skill. That is, one level of practising involves approaching the piece so that at the end you "know" it and can play it with some facility. Another level is to develop the ability to articulate, or work with timing, or voicing, or ease of motion - I'm not that up on piano skills. When you can consciously aim toward such a thing, then there is a different kind of "progress" in terms of quality in your playing, rather than the amount of pieces that you master, or grade levels you climb. It's powerful stuff. Indirectly, if you can play with greater ease, you also master a piece faster and can put more into it.

For this reason, if a student is asking what to focus on in this way, and if that is not being given (a big if), it is a frustrating thought.

Rocket, giving it enough time is also an important point.

I would never say to a potential or a new student "stick it out" I just don't see piano lessons that way. I see students potential as an open door and if there are problems that make them want to quit, I consider that it's me who has the responsibility to teach in a way to avoid problems, and to begin fixing the problem when one is detected.

I sell an Introduction to Music" program 10 lesson package for $250 and at the end of the first 10 lessons we have an "evaluation" about our progress of what we have accomplished to date and the student then decides to purchase a new package of 10 lessons (actually part of my tuition paying plan) and enter year round lessons that requires enrollment and a contract, 24 hour notice of absences and 30 days termination notice. (They can elect monthly payments or continue with the $250 per 10.)

I agree with the 10 weeks of working with a student as needed for observing how a new beginner or transfer student of any age or level thinks and reacts to me, the lesson instruction, the music page while processing through it, his attitude and reaction physically and verbally and how he processes, retains and uses. At the end of 10 weeks I can do short term and long term lesson plans in instruction, repertoire, technique, theory. I can adjust that plan as in unfolds within a timeline but it will always be about the path the student is on and always reflect his needs and making progress in the "now".

A child is likely to show facial expressions and just yesterday I noticed pinched eyebrows and grimacing lips on one child age 6 who has had about 8 lessons. The piercing facial expressions were temporary and only about her focusing on a spot that was an unsolved question in her mind. She was getting up close and personal with the music and the challenge; A 3rd year 10 year old was not feeling well because of something at school, her face and body showed her energy and spirit were on vacation but she really wanted the lesson as she had several memorized pieces she was very happy about. You would never know that inside she was resiliant from looking at her face and body which appeared empty. She pulled the music into being just fine and it was a strong "win" for her. So teachers "judge" by what they see exhibited from the student's inner world as "worn" by the student.

I judge by the quality of their presentation whether or not they have done the practicing from the last assignment/lesson. I compliment or praise what I saw/heard that was exceptional, good or promising. I ask them to show me where their problem areas are and we address the areas that need further instruction or reminders. The comments the student makes along with any questions he has asked are also addressed as he makes them. We practice how to practice every song at the lesson. I write full instruction notes in their notebook of what occured at lesson. If the student is about 11-12 and in their 2nd year of lessons or more, I ask them if they write anything they are thinking about in the notebook.

Watching and listening helps me see strengths and weakness and gives me a list of things that need to be in the lesson immediately or in the near or further out future. I have certain things that are part of what I look for at every lesson, but then there are surprizes that come up during lesson that are important clues not to be missed.

I just thought it important that people realize that I as a teacher am busy participating and reacting in my inner world as a teacher but the student may think I'm only sitting there passively. Not passive at all. I know my role and what is required to help someone make their way through the demands of becoming a musician. While it is certainly about the music, it is so much more about reacing and teaching what the student as an individual needs to know and own to develop toward becoming the best musician he can be. We have to connect as partners working together in this important process.

There is no room in our profession for casual, chaotic, haphazard or misleading teaching. The teacher can only teach what is known as a musician and as an educator. When the student is having a problem, whatever that is, I think it's the role of the teacher to address it with the student and aid the student in finding a resolution to a problem. Whether it's in the music or in the student.

Yesterday, another 10 year old in third year of lessons, pointed to her notebook where she found my words from last week: "Work to resolve the problem". She was so proud as she gleefully said, "I resolved the problem!" Her eyes were shining and her grin was outrageous!

I think good teaching is all about involving yourself with your student as though you were in their head experiencing what they are experiencing.

I think what Burma really wants and needs is a mentor who meets him where he is as the human being he is - a connection - a meeting of the minds. The teaching and learning will "flow" if he can get to the partnership state of mind. His teacher will have to be worthy. I think it will be about the relationship.

Betty Patnude

I read Keystrings comments carefully because they are written deeply from within based on personal experience and examination of the self. More deeply expressed than most students.

I want to mention "confidence" as a factor in being a piano student. Confidence grows because of positive experiences. Students can feel shaky and uncertain as they begin piano lessons never having been there before. Students look to the teacher for explanations and demonstrations and some students have special requirements to receive the information.

For instance when I meet a new student (child) who is wearing glasses, I can expect that vision is not going to be their first preferred learning style. I had piano lessons at age 9 which identified that I needed glasses to see with. My first year of lessons were very very bad because I had not yet had my eyes tested and I struggled when reading the music staff and the change from music page to looking at the keyboard would make me dizzy almost to the point of nauseous. Of course, I tried to disguise this problem. I wanted to play music very much as I could sing popular, folk and church music starting at the age of 3. I toughed it out. Glasses! Magic!

This story relates to having great desire but no confidence for an unknown reason.

Some students need to experience how something should feel before they can react. They need small steps of sequential exposure with how-to's broken down. They need a little more time with the process.

Suzuki for instance talked about only teaching the students how to bow first to the teacher in greeting and parting. About simply learning to hold the bow of the violin as a first good lesson. Then learning to hold the violin another lesson. Still no music. I am just beginning to read about Suzuki and his philosophy so I don't know the next step that comes. I know he is not in a hurry and that much of what he does is because of the state of being of the student unfolding.

We must be aware of the comfort level and confidence of our students. These alone give us a huge idea of the pace to proceed with and asks us to be aware and respectful of the students inner world.

I believe what we do with each student has to make sense to the student. It's our job to shape piano lessons accordingly.

Betty Patnude

Betty, it looks like we're doing the same thing, even if we're calling it different names. You're asking a student to "stick it out" for 10 weeks, I'm just two weeks more.

Actually, stick it out really isn't a good choice of words, and I would never use that with a student, but we're talking teacher to teacher here. I ask them to give lessons a try for 3 months in order for student & teacher to become a team and not only speak the same language, but learn how to interpret each other. You simply cannot do that in one or two lessons.

For sure, John. Actually the first 10 weeks is a critical period for both the teacher and the student. Kind of like dating is, I suppose. Kind of like choosing a marriage partner. It's also the setting up of our habits during our lesson time and what we come to expect from each other. And, yes, it's a team sport, not a single player sport, and the "team" has to unite.

My way of saying "stick it out" would be "don't quit before the miracle." Is it possible at the first lesson we are already thinking about how to prevent a dropout? And, we're also already aware that at some future date all students move on from us.

So what we're hoping for in the interim between starting and stopping is going to be a good experience for both of us. The potential is in the starting!

Betty

I'd just like to point out that nothing said gives reason to believe that either of the two teachers in question are guilty of any of these sins.

I'd just like to point out that this is complete nonsense.

I'm not saying it's scientific inquiry, Landarrano, I'm saying it as an observation. Wearing glasses usually implies impaired vision. Problems sometimes with depth perception. Sometimes wavy lines instead of straight lines of the music staff.

Yesterday, my students included a six year old new student wearing glasses and a 10 year old wearing glasses but still making more than his quota of simple mistakes in his 7th month. This indicates to me that other senses, aural and tactile come more into use with the visually impaired.

Let's not forget that kids don't clean their glasses as often as they should and using "sight savers" lens cleaning tissues is a regular thing here in my studio. I ask kids to wash their hands before starting lessons which they can do again as they leave if they are concerned about germs they've received. Dirty hands don't belong on the piano and dirty lens on glasses surely restrict what we can see.

I wear 2 pairs of glasses around my neck daily. One is a trifocal - try using those - and the other is specifically for distance accomodations at the computer and playing the piano. This is after having had cataract surgery in the past 10 years. I am also watched for retina problems. I think I know something about vision problems but of course, my opinion is not scientifically versed.

Do you, for instance, have visual problems?
Or, perhaps you are an optometrist, opthamologist, retinolist?
Please also explain "complete nonsense".

100% nonsense?

Four books giving conflicting instruction.

I am not a music teacher. However, I am a trained teacher. I have taken lessons with a good teacher, and my child went on to music studies at the university level so I do have some experience in that area.

If an attentive student is given opposing instructions, then this has a bad impact in two separate ways - it scatters his focus, and simply because of what opposing instructions do.

As a teacher, however, I would expect that a teacher will be fully familiar with the material that she gives out. How can she not know that instructions are opposing?

KS, 4 books is not at all unusual. Most of my students are working out of 5+ books. As far as conflicting instruction goes, it's difficult for us to analyze, as we only have one side.

I wasn't thinking about the two teachers Burma mentions. I was saying across the board in the professional world of piano teaching (AKA known as music education" we should be able to expect good results from good teaching skills.

There would be no "guilt" nor "sin" assigned as plenty of people use the services of these types of teachers and don't realize there is problematic teaching going on and the student are happy with their choices.

It's the peer group of teachers who recognize the different levels of other teachers abilities and whether there are high musical standards being offered or not. Poor music teaching is easily disguisable among the public and consumers.

We all compete for piano students in our communities and the criteria of teaching standards is not among the mix when people look for piano teachers. Chief questions are: How much do you charge and where are you located. That's as much qualifying as parents and adult students seem to need.

So what does finding a "good" piano teacher really mean?

Nothing has indicated that the teacher is not fully familiar with the material.

As for conflicting instructions, do you know what that means in this case? I don't.

Four or five books for a beginning student? Or are those your established students in the intermediate level, John?

The conflict was not just the number of books, it was concepts and context - different approaches. And, for a beginning adult student who wants instruction on what and how to practice.

Several books at once for the beginner seems like over load to me. Many of Burma's questions were about "focus" and "sequence" and "structure" in his piano lessons.

Lots to digest here - a busy day today! I don't disagree that 2-3 lessons are perhaps not enough to gauge how a teacher will work out. For all the reasons given. But given my circumstances, the teachers should then allow for more trial lessons rather than demand payment up front for 16 weeks/etc. It's their model, and perhaps not the best all the time. At least not with me anyway. But if you do offer this type of "package", then please be very explicit in those few trial lessons, because the student won't have much to go on other than "feel" - which can turn out to be good or not. Implicit trust is hard in such a short time. So don't use the same method you'd use if you had 6 trial lessons. Make sense? Yeah, these teachers may be great. It might have worked out. Unfortunately I'll never know. It's bad all around IMO.

Well, we're wandering o/t here, but yes. Elementary students who are in methods generally have a Lesson, Performance, Technique and a Theory book. Some also have a note speller, which is a drill book to help them with note names, since I generally teach intervalically.

When we move into repertoire, it's a two-book set, but then is supplemented with an etude book, a scale book, and a theory book.

As they advance into intermediate literature, we start using composer volumes, such as a Bach book, a Sonatina book, Schumann, a collection of contemporary works, and of course, an etude book, perhaps Burgmuller, perhaps a collection.

Advanced students begin working with urtexts of composers.

I agree with you, burma, that it is difficult to make an expensive 16-week commitment on the basis of two lessons. I hope you let the teachers know that their studio policies were the determining factors in your decision not to enroll. I'm sorry they weren't willing to extend a longer trial period for you.

Hey Burma, if you did like one or both of the teachers after the trial lessons, why not ask if they would accept a shorter trial period then they offer as a package? (Someone already suggested it earlier in this thread.) If a student is interested in that, the teacher might wery well agree to allow you to cancel after a test period. You have nothing to lose by asking, if thats what you would like.

The other option is to book new trial lessons with other teachers that have a different studio policy.

Any way might lead you to a good teacher. Take your time.

Question...how long should the trial/inspection period be?

I ask this because if I and a motivated adult student are to make progress, there needs to be forward motion.

If the person is shopping around, it is human nature for there to be a holding back on both the student's part and the teacher's.

The student has not committed to the lessons nor the lesson plan, because he is still shopping around.

The teacher also does not know how to proceed with a person who is not really yet a student, and has indicated they may bolt out the door at any time.

Furthermore, on a practical level, adult students who have demonstrated an ability to progress must purchase several books.

These include the main lesson book, typically Alfred's adult, a Hanon book for Hanon and scales, a beginner's Etude book for repertoire, and an Alfred's theory book. And soon afterwards typically come an easy classical repertoire book, and if they are also simultaneously interested in Blues and Boogie-Woogie, which many are, another book is needed, and some cd's.

That is a financial cost that a teacher shopper will balk at.

Thus, it would seem that by not committing, the prospective student creates and experiences a self-fulfilling prophesy, in that no committment yields little or no progress being made, which then "proves" that this is the wrong teacher.

Nice way of twisting things to point the finger at the student...

If a teacher decides to have a trial period, as I said above, that teacher has to demonstrate during that short trial (that *they* set BTW), that they are capable of gaining the trust of the student to continue. How they do this is up to them - they are the teachers. If they can't, then they have failed. Simple as that really. They are after all selling a service, no? If you read what I wrote, I never had an issue with the number of books - just the fact that there was really no direction, and sometimes opposing direction when using the books. If there was a method to this (and I never said there wasn't), then the teacher HAS to make it clear during the trial period. Otherwise they have failed. It's not rocket science really. I'm not here to spend valuable time and money messing around with someone that's maybe less serious than I am. And that's what it felt like. Sorry - as Gary said, there are some bad teachers out there. Don't point the finger at the student. I KNOW I did everything I was asked of. If that doesn't sit well with you, so be it. Don't assume that I was shopping around and not taking the lessons seriously. If you do all this assuming, you will fail as a teacher. Perhaps this is part of it - assuming the student is not serious. A good teacher should be able to tell. The fact that both would take me back is a good sign for me, not a bad one (or maybe they just need bookings to make money - not a good sign). A good teacher should not hold previous biases in their heads. Sure some students will shop around forever and monkey around. But if you can't tell one from the other, then don't teach please.

I am always a little surprised at how on one thread, teachers at PW will bemoan how many unqualified, 'quack' teachers there are out there, and how often they get transfer students from them who were duped and did not learn what they should have...and then on another, when an adult student or parent looking for a well qualified, high quality teacher expresses concern or asks questions trying to learn how to 'separate the wheat from the chaff,' some of these same teachers immediate reaction seems to be to take offense and accuse the person of being a 'teacher shopper.'

Gary D seems to be the only teacher on this thread to directly acknowledge the fact that bad teachers are often easier for new students to find that good teachers, and bad teachers can do a lot of damage to a piano student!

There are a lot of bad teachers out there (although they seem rare on the PW teacher's forum). In fact, when you're a totally clueless person who has no idea how to evaluate a music teacher, apparently you trip over lesser quality teachers while the top ones are hiding somewhere. (OK that's an exaggeration, but you really do have to know someone who knows about piano to get help in adequately 'vetting' a potential teacher).

Both Gary and I have obviously had personal experience with poor, unqualified teachers. And recently, I helped a co-worker of mine who, despite having an advanced degree and working in academia, was clueless about how to find and evaluate potential piano teachers for their own child. Maybe you have to have had it happen to you before you are aware of the potential damage.

At any rate, I must admit frustration and sadness that what, in my experience are fairly innocent, well-intentioned attempts to educate oneself being taken as a reason for offense.

I also had years wasted by 'duffers' until I stumbled into a true teacher's arms. I'm now a teacher myself.

Those two statements pretty well sum it up for me.

I don't know about the offense part, but from the OPs original posting:



I was able to see exactly what teacher #1 was up to, and I think I grasp what teacher #2 was doing. That the OP cannot see, it is quite understandable, because he's not an experienced teacher. My goodness, how could he?

BTW, Just because I or others could follow what these two teachers were doing doesn't mean that we think all teachers are "great."

I'm still convinced that if he had given either of these teachers a few more weeks, things would have begun to gel.

John,
What really concerned me about teacher 1 (who I agree seems likely to be a good teacher) is that when the student expressed confusion in what to practice, far from treating this as an important question and and opportunity to make a point about what is arguably one of the most important things a piano student could learn (a "teachable moment!"), from what I can tell (from his perspective) she was...well not quite dismissive of his concern...but definitely didn't clear up his confusion any. And about practicing of all things!

Even as an adult student I thought I knew what she was up to...but then, I have had many years of piano and other music lessons and am not a novice piano student without the skillset to evaluate a teacher...and I'm not faced with writing a fairly large check to a relative stranger to teach me something I know nothing about

Having a high quality teacher is important to me, as it seems to be to the OP. If I was looking for a new teacher, and had the potential resources at my disposal that the OP does (Boston! surely an embarrassment of riches), I would be reluctant to 'settle' for someone with whom I had any communication difficulties. Even if it is just a communication _style_ difference, or we just didn't 'read' each other right...because what is a piano lesson if not a communication between teacher and student?

We have heard before that the "adult student" on PW is a very different animal than the "adult student" many teachers deal with in the real world. If we are using a written forum as a medium to engage with others who share our interest in piano, obviously we Think about it alot, like to Talk about it, make sure we Understand what we should, and put a lot of importance on piano and piano lessons in our lives. Perhaps that's why we seem strange

To put it in other terms...if "most" piano students are satisfied with a cheap upright, and that works fine for what most people want to play...if a relative stranger asked your advice on what piano they should get, you'd assume that's what they were looking for. However, that would be bad advice to give if you found out the person had the desire and resources to buy a Tier 1 grand!

Burma, can you indicate what kinds of instructions you were given by either teacher. Never mind the pieces and number of books - what did the teacher focus on during the lesson? (for example, you wrote about hand relaxation for the first) And the second? There is a thought behind this question.

Enlighten us? I'd like to see if all the other teachers would agree with your analysis.

Unless I'm misreading something here, he is an absolute beginner. It simply isn't possible to give a beginning student hours of structured practice material, especially after just two short lessons (did we establish the length of the lessons?).

Also, part of my reaction may be that I've had adult students come to me and spell out exactly what they want, and when I respond and give them that, they disappear.

Finally, we just have one viewpoint on what transpired. Who knows, the teacher might even be on Piano World and not recognize herself based on the report.

You know the old saw, if you never ask, the answer is always NO. With the next teacher he tries, he should ask if he could take a month or two of lessons just to see if he fits with the teacher's teaching style. That doesn't seem unreasonable to me at all.

John,

I think I had enough music lessons in the past (although on classical guitar) to know what they were sort of looking for as well - or what they were "up to". Still I'd be curious to hear your thoughts. If you don't want to post them here, please PM me because I am interested.

My main point was not the lesson material itself Alfred/Bartok/Ukranian university book/etc. (though it was interesting to see their very different approaches), but rather the lack of clear communication on what to work/focus on after the lessons. Having taken lessons before on another instrument, I was expecting that. And it was from both! If their goal was to see what *I* chose to focus on given this and that (to see my strengths and weaknesses, how I choose to work/focus by myself w/o direction), then they saw that result because I had to figure it out myself! When I came back they were happy with my "progress", all sorts of silly praise, etc. And that also felt weird to me. You can say that's one approach to start off with, and perhaps. But I don't think it works for me.

Maybe they also wanted to see if I'd get flustered or whatever. I suppose I did as I'm here now, but not because of the reasons they thought (if that was their intent). There was nothing overwhelming in other words. But if teachers start using these type of "psychological tests", then that puts me off. Be direct with me. Trust me, and I will trust you. Is it really that hard to be organized and communicate well?

While adult beginners may have to deal with stereotypes and biases, I believe a good teacher should be upfront and honest in their approach. I've said this before - look at each person individually and don't assume.

Would either have worked out? You seem convinced. Why? Because people adapt? Because we got along personality wise? That only goes so far, and it's different with each person. And for how long would it have lasted? I want a teacher to stick with long term. Maybe they would have been good for a year. Then what? Move on? And this brings me to this point: How can you tell if a teacher is indeed not good or good for you? You don't seem to believe it in my case. Yet surely there are bad teachers!

In brief (because I'm dead tired and falling asleep!), I have to say that the focus was vague and I have to really think to recall details. It was a lot of testing I felt. I never got the feeling that we were laying the work for a solid foundation - which is how most things are started. It felt all over the place to me. At times like we were skipping over things, maybe to return later, maybe not - it wasn't clear. Things like this.

Both spoke of hand relaxation/positioning/etc. (though one was more about flat fingers and the other about more curved, etc.). The first was more about tone and hand movement/relaxation/"breathing" - the second more about hand positioning and "efficiency in movement" - Russian vs. German schools? Sounds like it!

One was stressing the importance of NOT starting in the C position as all whites are harder on the hands initially, and the other was very focused on the importance of the 5 finger position but at least one octave apart.

I don't know anymore - I'm dizzy! I'm starting to write things down, so I can make sense of it all. I'm still thinking what to do. I can always go back and ask for more trials. I can try someone else, etc. I just don't want to keep monkeying around. I want to just play! I do realize it's harder than I thought perhaps in finding the right teacher. And I don't want to write a book called "Grand Obsession II - A Piano Teacher Odyssey"!

Perhaps I should ask the teachers here this question:

If you were me, given the profile I gave about myself (quite detailed), and from all I've said, what would look for in a teacher and how would you approach the first few meetings/lessons? What would make you feel comfortable knowing you found the right one?

The only "test" I know of for finding a good teacher is to know someone who has similar goals to yours and who has worked with a teacher who has successfully helped him/her to reach those goals.

This makes it incredibly difficult for talented adults to connect with teachers who are a good fit. It also makes it incredibly difficult for us, the teachers, to correctly guess where you are, or where you want to go.

I am working right now with an adult, around 40, who is in my mind quite talented. It is her TALENT that has made it very difficult for me to find the best way to guide her. Let me explain:

She knew of me as a teacher through her brother. I taught her brother brass more than two decades ago, but my brass students at that time all knew about my ability at the piano because of other things I did, including accompanying all of them, often on very advanced music.

So when she contacted me, by email, I set up a lesson, and in the first lesson I knew I liked her a lot, and I felt that I could help her. However, when people are very talented, what they do not know is often masked by what they DO know. So as I worked with her, I was also discovering holes. She was undoubtedly looking for leadership, but I was looking for clues for direction. I kept testing her by suggesting different compositions, different styles, then watching carefully what she could do, and not do. Every week I was shocked by the difficult things she worked out, seemingly by herself, that usually take a great deal of careful coaching. And I was surprised by things she could not do, since she herself did not know what she didn't know.

It actually took about three months to get really synced.

Sometimes politeness can cause problems, when we, as teachers, are very polite, and we are working with cooperative but very polite students who expect us to be more direct. In this case it is now clear to me that this student really has no limits to where she can get to, and I am now teaching her like a very intelligent teen with the goal of majoring in music, even piano performance. It has nothing to do with that goal, since as far as I know she has no plans to go to a college and already has a career. But the talent is there, I now know that she is prepared to work very hard, and I now feel comfortable teaching in a more serious and challenging manner than I am usually able to do, because most of my students are simply neither that serious nor that talented.

I suspect that *if* you find a teacher who feels right for you, you will be tempted to make a commitment that will allow both of you to click. The problem, as you have already figured out, is that for every teacher out there who is truly outstanding there is another who is not even of average competence. Once again, I have had the best after suffering the immense damage of working with two teachers, both with reps, who did a whole lot of damage, not only to me, but to other people.

Excellent post Gary. I understand both sides. And I understand how difficult it is to find a teacher that can sort me out and teach me accordingly. One thing I do know - on the guitar it happened. Almost exactly as you describe it above with your student. So I seek that for piano now. Perhaps I got extremely lucky with my guitar instructor years ago and assumed it would be as easy now. I think now that is indeed the case of what happened. And I'm finding out that it's not that easy..

One interesting thing. Back home, good teachers will take you on, and if you say you are serious, committed, etc., they will push you like you won't believe. No mercy. And if you can't keep up, they have no fear of telling you bluntly, harshly, making you feel small, and dropping you. Perhaps it's also a culture thing as I was alluding to. I don't need or even want that perhaps, but I'm not one to shy away if someone challenges me or tells me I don't have it. If I tell you my goal is to do X, X, & Z, then you tell me if I can't or can. I want to know.

Of course it takes time, I understand it's complicated, and I really do understand what people here are saying. It has to be tough for teachers - no doubt. But I have to also go on what I feel may or may not be right. Otherwise every teacher can potentially be the one.

Gary, thanks for an excellent and thoughtful post. You summarized well what teachers experience time and time again, and it illustrates why these things take time to sort themselves out.

John

burma,

Let us know how this turns out...whether you start lessons and how it goes.

One thing I would suggest is that you lighten up about what you think is good teaching. You've let us know you're a rank beginner with 4 lessons under your belt. You've said your teachers were credentialed. Surely either of these can get you through primer and level 1 music!

You want to be told exactly how much time to practice i.e. 10 minutes technique, 20 minutes lesson book etc. Someone can give you exact measurements of time...but it's just a made-up structure. Yet one you feel more comfortable with. How about playing each piece you're assigned at least 3 times a day? If you're willing to do more than 30 minutes daily, then do more. You say you've played your assigned primer/level 1 pieces well (in the 4 lessons with 2 different teachers). I suspect your idea of playing well is very different from what your teacher sees.

From what you've posted I would agree with the teacher who tells you to stop overthinking and just play music. If a teacher can play piano well, has credentials and successful students...then surely the teacher has something to offer you. I think you are searching for the ultimate best teacher. No problem there, except when you rule out all available teachers and consider quitting before you've even completed the primer level. So yes, look for someone you can trust and work with. But get started! Now if you don't really want to learn piano, that's your choice. But I don't see that it's so difficult to get a teacher to help you get started.

Thats good advice.

Burma, you did get lucky with your guitar teacher. Very lucky. In a way, this is like dating...at the beginning, you do not know if things will work out, but you will never know if you do not stick with it for a while.

As Ann says, find a good credentialed teacher, which is sufficient to teach the basics.

As far as your concern about practicing, how long you should, etc, if the teacher is not 100% exact and specific as to how to practice each thing, can't you look at your guitar experience and apply the same principles to the piano?

On thing I always tell my students is that I want them to become their own teacher. Before the flames start, let me explain.

I want them to learn to carefully observe what they are doing, and apply the principles of how to analyze music, how to observe their posture, how to listen to their playing, how to approach a problem in the music and devise a practicing stratagem to overcome it, etc.

I often ask my adult students, and my more advanced youngsters, "what was right about what you played, and what could be improved?

Most can answer accurately. Then, I ask, "If you were the teacher, what would you say to yourself to fix it?

Again, most will answer correctly. I often see the light bulb go on in their countenance...they have just taken a big step toward musical maturity.

Of course a newbie to piano cannot be expected to do all of that right away, but some of the principles of practicing are universal to all instruments. For example, repeatedly playing through a piece that is full of errors, tempo problems etc, is NOT practicing. That is playing the piece, and reinforcing errors.

Instead, practicing a problem area is separating the area, and working through it slowly, etc.

This is not a piano-specific thing, so your guitar training should have taught you that. So if your new teacher is not completely fulfilling your concept of what should be explained vis-a-vis practicing, or whatever, fill in the blanks with your previous musical training.

And then communicate with the teacher. Good teachers are able to adapt to each students' learning style, talent, speed of learning, and so forth.

There are a couple of things that I only learned later on as a student:
- Different teachers will have different approaches, maybe totally opposite, yet both correct, and both ultimately leading to the same place
- An approach that a teacher has now may change radically in a few years as you grow as a student.
- Different instruments have different challenges and so will elicit different approaches. With some the technical challenges are foremost - if you don't get at those first, you can't even produce a note, or you risk major injury. With piano it happens to be all those notes played at once, while producing a sound is deceptively easy. So a piano teacher will probably prioritize differently than a string or brass teacher.

A maddeningly confusing aspect involves what constitutes effective methodical teaching. Some teachers who appear lost and disorganized because you can't define what they're doing, are in fact lost and disorganized. But other teachers, especially the experienced ones who also have a lot of training behind them, might be holding a systematic plan underneath what may appear random. There are also some good reasons for not being overtly systematic. Then there are teachers who are like engineers or professors: everything is organized, defined, clearly systematic. They may in fact be defining what our random-appearing teacher also knows and uses, and possibly have a smaller grasp of the whole. Some also have tunnel-visioned themselves into some narrow fix of what makes everything run well - but they are the ones who appear the most knowledgeable.

There is a balance in the acquisition of music which the teacher and the student have to totter along. If it's totally random, or we go by rote without understanding, we won't go far. Otoh, some things are understood through doing - they filter in - music integrates the senses, the body, the understanding. If you over-direct yourself then you may miss the boat. So the teacher who has a plan behind the guidance may be bringing you to where you need to be. Or that teacher may be clueless.

I suspect that the capacity to practice, once the "how" is known, is underestimated and underexploited for adults. In my mind, the "what do I focus on" question is still important. The other side of this is that "what to focus on" might be right in our faces and we miss it. The dastardly part is that the "trivial" things that a teacher mentions repeatedly might actually be the core of whatever.

I.e. there is no easy answer.

It seems to me that she was following essentially the same path I often use when working with a more mature beginner. You need to find out what they actually know, and can do, not what they say they know. And the books she chose are actually revealing. The Alfred, of course, because it covers technically basic minutiae which simply has to be covered, but it's far from inspirational. The Ukraine (I actually have several Ukraine music books in my library - they are interesting) to add some flavoring to your experience, and because they give your reading a challenge. You're not expecting the unusual harmonies, and this complicates the process. Ditto Bartok. I think you mentioned theory, which is also good. What I particularly liked about her was the focus on your playing mechanism right from the start. This is very important and was probably why many of us were startled that you walked away from her.

I did something very similar with a young adult who has been with me exactly one year now, and who has reached a solid intermediate level. We started with a foundation text, an easy etude book and a flavoring book of pieces. After 3 to 4 months, as the student progressed very rapidly, we moved out of these into literature. And reflecting back on it, there were times when the student was obviously a bit unhappy with the lesson material, but now she has a solid foundation and it shows.

So, Burma, to sum up:

You are looking for a demanding, authoritarian, detailed, organized teacher who is transparent about the methodology and plan, because you believe that type of teacher is the safest bet for reaching your full potential and attaining your goals, thoroughly teaching you what you need to know without wasting precious time. (and also because of your own cultural bias that these are the 'best' teachers)

And you are afraid of ending up with a "head-patter" who has no serious goals for his/her students, won't really demand your best work or know how to help you become the best you can be, or would waste months or years of your time?

That about cover it?

Know any German or Eastern European immigrant piano teachers?

Half-seriously...while my own teacher is as American as I am, and rarely blunt enough for me, I do know one teacher who trained in Russia who wastes no time or niceties in being...let's say very direct. And as an adult student I really do like that approach too. It's comforting to not be coddled or wonder if people are just 'being nice' or telling you what you want to hear to save your feelings.



Wow Gary. That is one of the most insightful things I have heard a teacher say about about an adult student! You must be a fantastic teacher for adults.

THis actually echoes a deep-seated (but rarely articulated to a teacher) fear I hear from many returning adults and transfer students...and, very often, from people who reached a fairly advanced stage (most often a college major in music) but left the piano entirely when the gaps in their knowledge and preparation were discovered.

It can make a person paranoid. It is wonderful to hear a teacher recognize this out loud. Is it because of your own experience?

Prodigal, if you are an amateur pianist, and not a teacher, where do you hear all of this?

Hi Ann,

I will update the thread as I hopefully "just start playing" as you say. I'm sure I'll sort it out sooner than later.

I don't disagree that either teacher could have gotten me through beginner material, but as I said, since it didn't feel right, I had to go on just that really. I think sometimes it's OK to accept that some teachers may or may not work. We can't know with certainty, of course, but we have to also trust our gut too. If I'm not comfortable, then I have to make a call. Did I make the call too soon? Maybe, maybe not. Nobody was hurt, nothing bad happened, etc. I don't plan to keep searching for months however, so I'm confident I'll figure something out!

In terms of practice time, I don't need someone to tell me exactly how much time, but some focus is good and necessary. I was just saying that as an example - the minutes. Of course I play/practice every chance I get, so it's not as if I'm limiting my time to 1 exact hour or whatever.