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#1407174 - 03/30/10 02:10 PM Re: mental practice [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
Hugely enough that you cannot switch your hands over and achieve comparable results? I'd say that's pretty heavily geared towards muscle memory, rather than separate from it...
But nothing like the level of muscle memory gained at the keyboard. As I said earlier:'What you will be gaining, by avoiding it at all costs, is a far truer, purer muscle memory.' i.e. it's very hard to build mistakes in the imagination.
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#1407175 - 03/30/10 02:15 PM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
Hugely enough that you cannot switch your hands over and achieve comparable results? I'd say that's pretty heavily geared towards muscle memory, rather than separate from it...
But nothing like the level of muscle memory gained at the keyboard.


Indeed, that is precisely why nobody can do this, other than a genius, without working at the keyboard too. Because (while the hand crossing example shows that it DOES build muscle memory that is not fully transferable to an impartial mental understanding) it does not do so to a high enough level for anyone but a genius to play. But then, muscle memory should be "avoided" of course (but not "replaced", according to your important distinction). It's actually a terrible thing, not the life-blood of piano playing...

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#1407177 - 03/30/10 02:18 PM Re: mental practice [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi

Indeed, that is precisely why nobody can do this, other than a genius, without working at the keyboard too.
Where did I say don't work at a keyboard? You leave the keyboard (apart from fingering) until you've trained the motor cortex.
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#1407178 - 03/30/10 02:22 PM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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so where does avoiding muscle memory come into this? Training the brain with regard to the movements IS muscle memory.
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#1407186 - 03/30/10 02:36 PM Re: mental practice [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Ah yes, but on an extremely subtle level and without the afferent nerves creating a feedback loop.
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#1407193 - 03/30/10 02:43 PM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Indeed, hence the importance of developing it at the piano as well, except for geniuses. You are going in circles. When are you going to admit that the idea of even seeking to avoid muscle memory is a completely flawed concept- or that when you insist on visualization of fingering that is precisely what you promote?
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#1407195 - 03/30/10 02:44 PM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
FunkyLlama Offline
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Posts: 359
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Bah, internet detectives. For what it's worth, I was banned by my own request. >_>

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#1407196 - 03/30/10 02:48 PM Re: mental practice [Re: FunkyLlama]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: FunkyLlama
For what it's worth, I was banned by my own request. >_>
Hey, hopefully that'll give a certain person an idea!
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#1407204 - 03/30/10 03:10 PM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Yes, apologies for being a constant thorn in your side by utilising rational thinking, when I observe definable contradications in the various things you regurgitate from others without thinking them through.
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#1407209 - 03/30/10 03:15 PM Re: mental practice [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
When are you going to admit that the idea of even seeking to avoid muscle memory is a completely flawed concept- or that when you insist on visualization of fingering that is precisely what you promote?
I'll put it this way - Create muscle memory in the motor cortex only. Avoid creating any afferent nerve feedback loops! Technical enough for you? (and Kreisler?)
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#1407213 - 03/30/10 03:22 PM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Overly technical, and not even very meaningful, actually. Nobody asked for a larger quantity of technical jargon. We complained about inconsistency and practically dubious explanations. It is of no issue which part of the brain is used, practically speaking. What is important is that you totally contradicted yourself by insisting that your method is about avoiding muscle memory, when it is specifically geared towards promoting it. If you actually wish to avoid it, you must also avoid visualizing fingerings- not insist on thinking about them. The method you describe is very widely known but your explanation shows that you completely misunderstood the procedure and what it actually offers. Are you yet willing to have the humiltiy to admit both that you were completely on the wrong track in claiming that you need to avoid muscle memory and in claiming that this method contributes to that? If not, I'd suggest you remove the fingerings from your visualizations as a matter of urgency. It would put you on a far more efficient path towards your goal. I'm not exactly convinced you'd be one of the rare few who could flourish this way- but at least you would be practising what you preach, instead of the very opposite.

Incidentally, you didn't ever comment on the notable discrepancy between your claims about always memorising and the fact you always use scores on your films. Are you simply trying to impress people with evidentially dubious claims, or do you actually practise any of what you claim to "always" (I quote) do when learning music? Are you here wanting to advise and assist, or to attempt to create a glorified image of yourself to others- based on making inflated claims about yourself and refusing to acknowledge transparent flaws in your suggestions to other, rather than seeking to converge upon rounded understanding?
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#1407218 - 03/30/10 03:32 PM Re: mental practice [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
What is important is that you totally contradicted yourself by insisting that your method is about avoiding muscle memory, when it is specifically geared towards promoting it.
For most people muscle memory is separate from visual memory which is separate from aural memory which is separate from theory memory. In reality they are all motor (muscle) memory if you look at a subtle enough level. For Reich and Trager (and probably James) even emotional memory is a muscle memory! So, you talkin’ psychology or piano-player-in-the-street? Most posters are the latter I would think and understand learning using the multiple memory model.

Quote:
Incidentally, you didn't ever comment on the notable discrepancy between your claims about always memorising and the fact you always use scores on your films.
Again words in my mouth. Where did I say I always memorize? I said 'Years ago I realized I might as well start memorizing anything I'm seriously interested in rather than read through the score,'. I can only think of one piece video'd that I'm seriously interested in. What's your beef?
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#1407221 - 03/30/10 03:39 PM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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"For most people muscle memory is separate from visual memory which is separate from aural memory which is separate from theory memory."

On what grounds? I do not accept that for a moment- not even in the most physically based learning. While almost all could benefit from drawing greater associations, it is not remotely accurate to think that they even COULD be entirely separated.

"In reality they are all motor (muscle) memory if you look at a subtle enough level. For Reich and Trager (and probably James) even emotional memory is a muscle memory! So, you talkin’ psychology or piano-player-in-the-street? Most posters are the latter I would think and understand learning using the multiple memory model."

Who refers to aural or visual learning as 'muscle memory'? I certainly don't. Do you? If so, this makes your idea of seeking to avoid muscle memory MORE of a nonsense, not less! did you even THINK before raising this irrevelant point? It's certainly a nice way to muddy the waters and confuse the issue, but far from standrard terminology. I have never encountered the terms outside of reference to learning based on movement.

Why are you so keen to change the subject rather acknowledge the simple rational implications, should you think this through. You would sooner cloud the issue in vaguery,rather than consider the evident practical issues and the evident flaws in the logic you presented? Why is it so hard for you to acknowledge an error and learn from it?

"Years ago I realized I might as well start memorizing anything I'm seriously interested in rather than read through the score, as that's the eventual outcome anyway. I now realize, and Matthay amongst many others concur, that you don't know a piece unless you can perform it in your head note-for-note finger-for-finger - so I'm starting there. Only when I can play a section in my head will I take it to the piano because that's how it ultimately must be anyhow"

You really don't make this difficult- except for yourself...

If you ever practise what you claim- why have you do almost never upload anything you actually know? You prefer to misrepresent yourself by only recording yourself in pieces you cannot play? Who are you trying to fool here?
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#1407230 - 03/30/10 03:45 PM Re: mental practice [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi

If you ever practise what you claim- why have you do almost never upload anything you actually know?
I knew it would get to this. Once again you demand a video. As I said last time - Who do you think you are?
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#1407235 - 03/30/10 03:47 PM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
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My 'claim' is pretty simple. On a certain level afferent signals simply confuse motor learning.
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#1407238 - 03/30/10 03:48 PM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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To make claims that you cannot substantiate is frequently known as bravado. Still, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. No doubt you do usually practise what you preach. Evidently you are just a masochist who likes to downplay his abilities in public (by only recording pieces that are read from scores) and save the repetoire that you actually learn to a high standard with this method (of only taking things to the piano when you can play them in your head) for private consumption only. At least, that's the only credible alternative that I can immediately conceive of...
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#1407239 - 03/30/10 03:49 PM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
My 'claim' is pretty simple. On a certain level afferent signals simply confuse motor learning.


Yes, but that's a new claim and not one that ever came into this previously.


Edited by Nyiregyhazi (03/30/10 04:02 PM)
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#1407242 - 03/30/10 03:52 PM Re: mental practice [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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PS. I did not request a video and neither am I intersted in one. I pointed out a glaring discrepancy between your claims and what is evidenced. If you would care to clear that up by uploading some of your mentally learned repetoire from memory that is your business. I don't particularly wish to view any more films, however and did not ask for any,
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#1407243 - 03/30/10 03:55 PM Re: mental practice [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
My 'claim' is pretty simple. On a certain level afferent signals simply confuse motor learning.


Yes, but that's a new claim and not one that ever came into this previously. Where on earth are you going?
Just another way to put it. But suggesting to musicians they 'lower the level of their afferent signaling' may cause some confusion.
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#1407245 - 03/30/10 03:57 PM Re: mental practice [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
I pointed out a glaring discrepancy between your claims and what is evidenced.
You'll be needing to point out that 'glaring discrepancy' Mr Hyperbole.
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#1407248 - 03/30/10 04:03 PM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Fine, I'll repeat it. You said:

"Years ago I realized I might as well start memorizing anything I'm seriously interested in rather than read through the score, as that's the eventual outcome anyway. I now realize, and Matthay amongst many others concur, that you don't know a piece unless you can perform it in your head note-for-note finger-for-finger - so I'm starting there. Only when I can play a section in my head will I take it to the piano because that's how it ultimately must be anyhow"

Yet you have scarcely uploaded a single film from memory- despite the claim about how only when you can play a section in your head. Perhaps this does not strike you as any discrepancy? I'll leave others to make their own theories about what this implies about your claim...
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#1407250 - 03/30/10 04:06 PM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Registered: 07/24/09
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Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
My 'claim' is pretty simple. On a certain level afferent signals simply confuse motor learning.


Yes, but that's a new claim and not one that ever came into this previously. Where on earth are you going?
Just another way to put it. But suggesting to musicians they 'lower the level of their afferent signaling' may cause some confusion.


Not to me, sorry. I understand the sentence perfectly- which is why I am so puzzled that you made it for the first time midthread rather than continue with the subject matter. Would you like to start a new topic perhaps, as I see zero relevance to what has been under discussion- or at least what WOULD have been under discussion were you not wasting everybody's time trying to defend your ego by attempting justify false premises rather than admit to them.
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#1407251 - 03/30/10 04:06 PM Re: mental practice [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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I haven't uploaded anything I'm seriously interested in (apart from one) - already said that.
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#1407253 - 03/30/10 04:08 PM Re: mental practice [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
suggesting to musicians they 'lower the level of their afferent signaling' may cause some confusion.
Well, I'm so glad that makes sense to you! Different strokes...
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#1407257 - 03/30/10 04:12 PM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
I haven't uploaded anything I'm seriously interested in (apart from one) - already said that.


Interesting...
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#1407267 - 03/30/10 04:28 PM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
suggesting to musicians they 'lower the level of their afferent signaling' may cause some confusion.
Well, I'm so glad that makes sense to you! Different strokes...


Yes, that's right- quoting rote learned terms from a physiology textbook does not automatically win an argument by default. Particuarly when all you do is quote, without bothering to even attempt to establish context or relevance. That does not further a discussion. It just makes the person who prefers to try to impress with jargon, (rather than follow a chain of logic) look rather silly (often causing an embarassed silence, when done in a public, which some people sadly mistake as a sign that everyone is impressed by their use of a word). Sorry, but not everyone is going to respond by saying, "Congratulations, you introduced a terms that is beyond my own knowledge. Clearly you are an expert and I bow down to your knowledge of terminology. Never mind all the rational contradictions you've spent the whole day pursuing. You know more jargon.".
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#1407269 - 03/30/10 04:32 PM Re: mental practice [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Context for including afferent nerves in a mental practice thread? Wha???
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#1407270 - 03/30/10 04:32 PM Re: mental practice [Re: aidans]
Mark_C Online   content
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Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: aidans
I'm new to this forum, but I've gotten the sense that kbk likes to mess with people.....

Either that, or he doesn't realize what he's saying.
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#1407271 - 03/30/10 04:33 PM Re: mental practice [Re: Mark_C]
keyboardklutz Offline
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No, the former (that's the cruel bit).
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#1407274 - 03/30/10 04:34 PM Re: mental practice [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
Mark_C Online   content
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Your patience is extraordinary.
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