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#1405280 - 03/28/10 01:41 AM mental practice
lontano 1 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/08/10
Posts: 17
Loc: Seattle, WA
My teacher tried to explain mental practice to me. I find it to be very hard. Any advice? thanks

Kam

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#1405288 - 03/28/10 01:53 AM Re: mental practice [Re: lontano 1]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Now you're talkin'. Hey, and welcome to PW!
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#1405459 - 03/28/10 11:57 AM Re: mental practice [Re: lontano 1]
Mark_C Offline
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Best would be to ask your teacher. smile

I find it very helpful. I think we all would probably benefit from doing it more than we do; the only times I do it are when I happen not to have a piano available, because if I do, I'd rather just play. smile
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#1405500 - 03/28/10 12:50 PM Re: mental practice [Re: Mark_C]
keyboardklutz Offline
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When it comes to memorizing mental practice rules! You want to avoid anything that encourages muscle memory.
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#1405714 - 03/28/10 06:04 PM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
PianonaiP Offline
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Registered: 07/22/09
Posts: 119
Loc: Central PA
I'm kind of curious to what all this involves. Going over the score with music? Or is it with no music? Maybe just thinking about practice? Enlighten me ha ha.

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#1405721 - 03/28/10 06:14 PM Re: mental practice [Re: PianonaiP]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
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Loc: Iowa City, IA
I go over the score with music, listen to recordings, sing, conduct, make notes in the score regarding fingering, hand position changes, some theoretical analysis, etc...
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#1405739 - 03/28/10 06:33 PM Re: mental practice [Re: Kreisler]
Palindrome Offline
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I read through the score, listening to the music in my head as I do. Sometimes I get ideas, particularly with regard to phrasing. My piano teacher (who was a very accomplished musician) couldn't do this.
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#1405794 - 03/28/10 07:56 PM Re: mental practice [Re: Palindrome]
Ferdinand Offline
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I do mental practice mostly after learning the piece well enough to play it without the score. I visualize the keyboard and play the piece slowly in imagination, making sure I know every note. I try to hear the music mentally while doing this, but sometimes all I can manage is the melody. As keyboardklutz suggested in another thread, visualizing the correct fingering is important for secure memorization. I've been trying recently to do this but am finding it very difficult.

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#1405960 - 03/29/10 02:04 AM Re: mental practice [Re: Ferdinand]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Years ago I realized I might as well start memorizing anything I'm seriously interested in rather than read through the score, as that's the eventual outcome anyway. I now realize, and Matthay amongst many others concur, that you don't know a piece unless you can perform it in your head note-for-note finger-for-finger - so I'm starting there. Only when I can play a section in my head will I take it to the piano because that's how it ultimately must be anyhow. It's the only way to defeat performance anxiety (by avoiding muscle memory at all costs).
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#1405963 - 03/29/10 02:14 AM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
Ferdinand Offline
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You set the fingering away from the piano?

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#1405964 - 03/29/10 02:15 AM Re: mental practice [Re: Ferdinand]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Ah.....no. That's a very important point. And I do learn hands separately.
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#1405995 - 03/29/10 03:36 AM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
zxcjason Offline
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Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 166
Loc: Vancouver, BC
Also, do it in a quiet place, and a quiet time so you can focus. To me personally, it's like a form of meditation.

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#1406001 - 03/29/10 03:45 AM Re: mental practice [Re: zxcjason]
keyboardklutz Offline
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There's a dog that barks a lot round here. I put white noise on when doing this. Of course one can assume once it can be done in a crowded noisy room you're ready for the concert platform!
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#1406202 - 03/29/10 11:57 AM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
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It really does work. I've just learned a Mazurka this way. A few memory probs were creeping in so I spent half an hour in the armchair this morning. This afternoon I know it 100% - pleasant surprise.
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#1406494 - 03/29/10 05:32 PM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Years ago I realized I might as well start memorizing anything I'm seriously interested in rather than read through the score, as that's the eventual outcome anyway. I now realize, and Matthay amongst many others concur, that you don't know a piece unless you can perform it in your head note-for-note finger-for-finger - so I'm starting there. Only when I can play a section in my head will I take it to the piano because that's how it ultimately must be anyhow. It's the only way to defeat performance anxiety (by avoiding muscle memory at all costs).


I can't help but notice that you seem to have a score in front of you in virtually every one of your youtube films. Am I perhaps missing something, or do I spy a rather major discrepancy?

As for avoiding muscle memory at all costs, that is simply absurd. Muscle memory must be complemented not replaced. This a huge distinction that needs to be made. Can you play a piece you have memorised, with you hand crossed over (ie. left hand plays the right and vice versa) with no more difficulty than as normal? If not, you are definably "guilty" of muscle memory, whether you realise it or not. For virtually all mere mortals, mental practise is hugely geared towards development of muscle memory- never moreso than than when it is based around fingerings, rather than merely decontextualised visualisation of pitches.

A good way of adding to (not replacing!) muscle memory is to play pieces from start to finish with one finger, by the way.
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#1406791 - 03/30/10 12:57 AM Re: mental practice [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Where did I say replace muscle memory? That's absurd, you'd fall down without it. As usual, an entire post built on putting words in my mouth. But hey, glad you're studying my videos - you might learn something!

On interesting point though, even learning a piece from the sheet it's better practicing away from the keyboard once you've done the fingering. Mulling over music without the encumbrance of machinery is very beneficial - technical work apart obviously (though even there there's a space).
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#1406814 - 03/30/10 01:53 AM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Registered: 07/24/09
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Indeed, I'm now intimately acquainted with a host of the dangers of the flopping approach and how much it can hold back those who devote their all to it. Pardon me for thinking that the sentence:

"You want to avoid anything that encourages muscle memory."

might be equated with seeking to replace muscle memory. The only absurdity I'm currently seeing is to claim that there is a notable distinction of definitions. Feel free to replace the word "replace" with "avoid" throughout my post, if that makes it any less absurd to you (after all I should absolutely hate to be seen as having forced the word "replace" into your mouth, where you actually wished to say "avoid"). And then perhaps you might actually go on to respond to the points contained within in specific terms? You claim to memorise everything, where your vidoes clearly show otherwise. So is this just a display of public bravado or do you ever actually practise what you claim to always do? And how can you claim the importance of "avoiding" muscle memory (which you would of course fall down without, according to an updated assertion), when your (claimed) learning approach is geared most clearly toward developing association of the PHYSICAL image of fingering, rather than merely pitch? Is an iota of argumental consistency too much to ask for?
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#1406817 - 03/30/10 01:57 AM Re: mental practice [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Muscle memory is the water we swim in, surely striving to stick our heads above the waves (at all cost) is worthwhile?
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#1406819 - 03/30/10 02:04 AM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Indeed. That's the precisely the point I made, so I'm not quite suire why you're pointing it out to me. Still, perhaps olympic swimmers would be well advised "to avoid" the water they swim in at all costs (but God forbid that they might "replace" it). That's supposed to be any clearer? Try thinking about it before whacking out yet another post and you might avoid offering such deeply misguided suggestions in future. The world is more complex than only having one thing or another, you know. To insist on avoiding muscle memory before detailing a practise method that is specifically towards developing it really doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
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#1406821 - 03/30/10 02:08 AM Re: mental practice [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Back ten minutes and up to the same nasty flaming!
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#1406822 - 03/30/10 02:10 AM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Registered: 07/24/09
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I'd call it raising evident holes in your argument. Feel free to return to the topic and fill in those holes. I'm not going to be drawn in by your attempt to change the topic, thankyou.
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#1406824 - 03/30/10 02:15 AM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
Frozenicicles Offline
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Registered: 09/02/09
Posts: 1324
Loc: Canada
A piece that's securely memorized requires visual memory of the score, auditory memory of the sound, cognitive memory of the harmonic changes, and muscle memory of the touch and fingering. But sometimes the latter can seemingly make the others unnecessary during practice... until you're on stage, your mind is blank and you don't even know what the first note is. Simply practicing the piece with consistent fingering will ensure that the muscle memory develops. But careful work, sometimes away from the piano, needs to be done to make sure that you actually know the piece if you want a good chance of performing it well.

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#1406825 - 03/30/10 02:18 AM Re: mental practice [Re: Frozenicicles]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Agreed. It's only one part. The point I was raising is that muscle memory must not be "avoided", in any sense of the word. That would be a deeply flawed mindset to carry. Muscle memory is the absolute foundation of learning- otherwise none of us would ever have cause to do any practise at a keyboard. The fact that other aspects should also be trained does not mean that it should ever be advisable to avoid it. You need to ADD to it, not seek to prevent it. Mental practise that visualizes fingering trains muscle memory just the same as it trains mental understanding.
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#1406827 - 03/30/10 02:33 AM Re: mental practice [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
Frozenicicles Offline
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Registered: 09/02/09
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Loc: Canada
Yeah, muscle memory is important. Being able to play large skips without looking, for example. I suspect that highly advanced pianists may be able to build muscle memory even away from the piano based on their past experience with the keyboard. Not sure, because I've never tried this myself. I did cram one violin piece entirely away from the instrument, but the violin is very different from the piano...and it wasn't a very hard piece.

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#1406831 - 03/30/10 02:39 AM Re: mental practice [Re: Frozenicicles]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Registered: 07/24/09
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Yeah, I think that's precisely the mistake kbk has made. To visualize the physical means is to train muscle memory, whether you try it at a keyboard or not. Only pure pitch based visualization, with absolutely no visualization of physical means, can reasonably be viewed as standing as an alternative to training muscle memory. If you really want to build a complete alternative, it would make good sense to do mental practise with no thought of physical means at all (especially not fingering), before seeking to improvise the means from scratch at a keyboard. A real genius can do this- hence those who really can flip their hands over and play a piece just the same. I heard that Fiorentino could do this with any Bach fugue. However, what most of us can do is to associate muscle memory with more conscious processes. For anything less than a genius, it's about developing the right associations and has nothing to do with avoiding muscle memory. If couldn't happily reverse your hands, muscle memory is the single thing that most allows you to reach your highest standards. That's not an enemy. However, if you did want to escape it outright, thinking about fingering is not the way to go (in fact, doing would make it a polar opposite to avoiding development of muscle memory, as that is precisely what will be trained). You'd need to think only about pitch, if you really want to break away.
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#1406921 - 03/30/10 07:58 AM Re: mental practice [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
Varcon Offline
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Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 1931
Loc: Mount Vernon, Georgia 30445
My teacher told me of Gabrilowitsch pacing up and down with the score and that much of his practice was down mentally. Another teacher told me that I should be able to write out the score while another wrote one time 'Exhaust the printed page.' So, studying the score and examining it for every detail is most important. However, another teacher told me one time that muscle memory would often get one through mental lapses during performance so it is a combination of mental, visual, auditory, physical in appropriate combination that would work favorably for the performer. There are stories of Dohnanyi (and others) being given a score and studying it on a train or before a concert (minus a keyboard)and then performing it during the program.

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#1407006 - 03/30/10 10:59 AM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
Pogorelich. Offline
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Registered: 12/28/08
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Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
And I do learn hands separately.


Initially or?

I find it extremely helpful, after learning something, to memorize the LH alone. I've noticed that most memory slips with people happen because of the left hand, and it's often what we're so uncertain of. If the LH is memorized.. hell you won't even be nervous!

Try playing an entire program just with the LH..



Edited by AngelinaPogorelich (03/30/10 11:00 AM)
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#1407048 - 03/30/10 11:58 AM Re: mental practice [Re: Pogorelich.]
keyboardklutz Offline
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When a piece is memorized it's worthwhile going over just the one hand to make sure you haven't passed any of it on to muscle memory.
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#1407059 - 03/30/10 12:09 PM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
Pogorelich. Offline
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Any of it? Surely that's impossible? Muscle memory is not all bad..
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'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#1407060 - 03/30/10 12:10 PM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
???

If you haven't passed any of it on to muscle memory then you will not be able to play it with any more confidence than the first time you atempt it. If you want a backup plan, practising it from memory with one finger (or visualizing the notes without thought of physical means) is a sure way to check that you know it by memory without recourse to muscle memory. However, if you think that means you are not using any muscle memory, you have a definably inaccurate picture of what goes on.

Having seen you struggle on your films with a score in front of you, I'm afraid I'm finding it hard to believe that you are one of the rare geniuses who has no need for muscle memory in order to play a relatively advanced piece with true confidence for the first time. In fact, my professional assessment would be that this is one of the things that you need to cultivate substantially more in order to progress (perhaps to the point where you could put the scores away, instead of merely claiming to do so with every piece you learn). I can easily see how you would struggle to play a piece by memory based on muscle memory alone, as your manner of movement is very inconsistent and disjointed.
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#1407064 - 03/30/10 12:15 PM Re: mental practice [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
You need to ADD to it, not seek to prevent it. Mental practise that visualizes fingering trains muscle memory just the same as it trains mental understanding.
Who said prevent it? Certainly wasn't me. You just have to twist words doncha?
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#1407066 - 03/30/10 12:18 PM Re: mental practice [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
Yeah, I think that's precisely the mistake kbk has made. To visualize the physical means is to train muscle memory, whether you try it at a keyboard or not.
And where did I say it wasn't? What you will be gaining, by avoiding it at all costs, is a far truer, purer muscle memory. You train the motor nerves without full and disturbing innervation.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
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#1407070 - 03/30/10 12:21 PM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
You need to ADD to it, not seek to prevent it. Mental practise that visualizes fingering trains muscle memory just the same as it trains mental understanding.
Who said prevent it? Certainly wasn't me. You just have to twist words doncha?


no I don't. You said that muscle memory should be avoided at all costs (contradicting yourself at the same time by talking about how vital is it to visualize the right fingering- ie to train muscle memory). Please quit this tedious (not to mention failed) attempt at pedantry and stick to the topic, if you have any genuine interest in it.
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#1407074 - 03/30/10 12:24 PM Re: mental practice [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Who said prevent it?
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#1407075 - 03/30/10 12:24 PM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
Yeah, I think that's precisely the mistake kbk has made. To visualize the physical means is to train muscle memory, whether you try it at a keyboard or not.
And where did I say it wasn't? What you will be gaining, by avoiding it at all costs, is a far truer, purer muscle memory. You train the motor nerves without full and disturbing innervation.


So by avoiding "muscle memory" at all costs, you will be gaining a truer "muscle memory". Thankyou for the explanation. That really clears up what was evidently not a logical contradiction after all...
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#1407076 - 03/30/10 12:25 PM Re: mental practice [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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How can you possibly avoid muscle memory?
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snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1407080 - 03/30/10 12:31 PM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Yes, that is indeed the point I am making. Congratulations if you are begining to understnad that. toMore to the point, how can any rational person SUGGEST avoiding muscle memory? Try reading back over your posts. They are stored in this thread, do you know? Have you really got nothing better to do than write this nonsense and then try to claim that you never said it in the first place, when someone picks out all the ludicrously transparent holes in it- and then pretend that you were the one making the sensible point in the first place, rather than the polar opposite of it?
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#1407082 - 03/30/10 12:34 PM Re: mental practice [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Where did I say you can avoid muscle memory? Words in my mouth again!
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1407086 - 03/30/10 12:39 PM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Registered: 07/24/09
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"You want to avoid anything that encourages muscle memory."

"It's the only way to defeat performance anxiety (by avoiding muscle memory at all costs)."

"When a piece is memorized it's worthwhile going over just the one hand to make sure you haven't passed any of it on to muscle memory."

Perhaps you might want to stop and monitor some of what comes out of your mouth? Please stop wasting everybody's time. Some people are interested in discussing the issues, without this tedious nonsense. If you have any interest, then stop making such futile attempts at pedantry and deal with these gaping holes in your comments. If you are so keen to portray yourself as a wise man, try behaving wisely enough to admit when you are so clearly wrong, so the discussion can progress.
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#1407088 - 03/30/10 12:42 PM Re: mental practice [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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These are all instructions. Can't you tell the difference between suggesting someone do something and the actual outcome? Actually, I think you can't. You're blinded by your flame rage!
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#1407089 - 03/30/10 12:43 PM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
"Just to make sure you haven't passed any of it on to muscle memory"

So what you meant to say was just to PRETEND that you haven't passed any of it on to muscle memory? This is simply pathetic now. I'm not flaming you- I'm pointing out irrational nonsense when I see it. It's really sad that you are so blinded by your delusions of wisdom that you think you can squirm out inaccurate assertions rather than admit to having been wrong. This forum is really a much poorer place for your egotistical refusal to be wrong about anything- no matter how well evidenced it might be. Personally I come here to think about issues- not to watch one member with an inflated ego spoil discussion after discussion by grasping at anything in order to portray themself as an authority. Leave thoughts of defending your ego and self image aside for one second and STICK TO THE TOPIC OF DISCUSSION!
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#1407094 - 03/30/10 12:52 PM Re: mental practice [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Is that the best you can do? I'm happy to elucidate - "Just to make sure you haven't passed any of it on to muscle memory" means make sure you haven't forgotten the visual memory and are relying on muscle memory instead if so, reclaim it. Am I saying you can avoid muscle memory? No. Am I instructing you to avoid muscle memory? Yes.

When going over the top you may avoid 'at all cost' getting shot. Does it mean you won't?
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#1407103 - 03/30/10 01:02 PM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
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So you are instructing people to attempt the impossiblility of avoiding the essential procedures of muscle memory (via a method that actively cultivates muscle memory, through your insistence on fingering, rather than discouraging it), without defining avoidance of it as impossible and indeed referring to it as being possible in another instance? And is there any reason why you couldn't have provided a clear explanation in the first place, instead of dealing in half-truth and outright inaccuracy? Don't book me in for a lesson just yet, thankyou.

For christ's sake stop wasting everybody's time with this tragic squirming. Are you more interested in the issues or in protecting your non-existant reputation as the local guru? If the former is the case, try furthering the discussion by progressing from some the points I raised, (instead of furthering your delusions of grandeur by claiming that you are the one who had made them- despite all the evidence to the contrary). Yet again what could have been an intersting discussion is thrown off course by your ego..

PS. Your analogy about getting shot is deeply flawed. The reason you cannot swithc your hands around your hands and play a piece as well as normally is the lack of, yes, MUSCLE MEMORY! We need to 'get shot', by that ludicrous analogy, to play . Have you been too busy typing to stop and think about that very basic chain of logic? You clearly have not even grasped this simple point. Dependence on ONLY muscle memory is bad. Muscle memory, however, is good. You have still not understood the reason why even seeking to avoid muscle memory is flawed?
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#1407108 - 03/30/10 01:11 PM Re: mental practice [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
So you are instructing people to attempt the impossiblility of avoiding the essential procedures of muscle memory (via a method that actively cultivates muscle memory, through your insistence on fingering, rather than discouraging it), without defining avoidance of it as impossible
Up to there, yes. Love the hysterics by the way, though maybe you should get it seen to?
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#1407111 - 03/30/10 01:15 PM Re: mental practice [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
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I'm new to this forum, but I've gotten the sense that kbk likes to mess with people.

If I might permit myself to paraphrase - and kbk can stomp me if I misstate his argument - you have to avoid building up muscle memory while memorizing the notes, or else your muscle memory will be muddled by mistakes. From what I've gathered from his posts, his sequence works roughly like this:

- Play hands separately, and work out appropriate fingerings
- Memorize the piece note for note, finger for finger, sitting in his armchair
- Practice at the piano, hands separately, using the fingerings he's memorized in mental practice
- Practice hands together once the piece is memorized hands separately

I can see why he would describe this as "avoiding building muscle memory," even when it *does* build muscle memory - he's avoiding building muscle memory until a lot of other stuff is out of the way.

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#1407113 - 03/30/10 01:16 PM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
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Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
So you are instructing people to attempt the impossiblility of avoiding the essential procedures of muscle memory (via a method that actively cultivates muscle memory, through your insistence on fingering, rather than discouraging it), without defining avoidance of it as impossible
Up to there, yes. Love the hysterics by the way, though maybe you should get it seen to?


So you respond by changing the subject again, rather than seek to further the issues under discussion...
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#1407116 - 03/30/10 01:20 PM Re: mental practice [Re: aidans]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Originally Posted By: aidans
I'm new to this forum, but I've gotten the sense that kbk likes to mess with people.

If I might permit myself to paraphrase - and kbk can stomp me if I misstate his argument - you have to avoid building up muscle memory while memorizing the notes, or else your muscle memory will be muddled by mistakes. From what I've gathered from his posts, his sequence works roughly like this:

- Play hands separately, and work out appropriate fingerings
- Memorize the piece note for note, finger for finger, sitting in his armchair
- Practice at the piano, hands separately, using the fingerings he's memorized in mental practice
- Practice hands together once the piece is memorized hands separately

I can see why he would describe this as "avoiding building muscle memory," even when it *does* build muscle memory - he's avoiding building muscle memory until a lot of other stuff is out of the way.


Don't you see though, this entire process is geared towards building muscle memory AND simultaneously building other understanding. It has not a jot to do with all that nonsense about actually avoiding muscle memory. If you want to do that, you practise with recourse to nothing but pitch or the sound image. If physical issues even begin to come into it, you are training muscle memory- away from the keyboard or not. People need to understand that muscle memory is not an enemy in any sense at all (from kbk films, it's clearly something he urgently needs to develop) Only blind and unaided muscle memory is an enemy. To seek to avoid it is a gross misunderstanding of the learning prcedures. When you play your hands in reverse by memory (ie left hand plays right and vice versa), you can see what happens without muscle memory. I wonder if kbk can do this for those pieces he learns (supposedly) without involving muscle memory. If not, it proves what a gross misconception his premise is based on.
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#1407118 - 03/30/10 01:22 PM Re: mental practice [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
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Why thank you aidans. Very succinctly put. And welcome to PW!
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#1407121 - 03/30/10 01:25 PM Re: mental practice [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
People need to understand that muscle memory is not an enemy in any sense at all
And there we disagree. Ask anyone how their muscle memory fares in concert.
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#1407125 - 03/30/10 01:27 PM Re: mental practice [Re: lontano 1]
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...


Edited by Kreisler (03/30/10 04:33 PM)
Edit Reason: pointless image deleted

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#1407129 - 03/30/10 01:30 PM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
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Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
I'm happy to elucidate - "Just to make sure you haven't passed any of it on to muscle memory" means make sure you haven't forgotten the visual memory and are relying on muscle memory instead if so, reclaim it. Am I saying you can avoid muscle memory? No. Am I instructing you to avoid muscle memory? Yes.


If that's the elucidated version, then I give up. For someone who's extremely particular and rigorous about physiological descriptions, your descriptions of mental processes are a tangled mess.

Also...

Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
These are all instructions. Can't you tell the difference between suggesting someone do something and the actual outcome?


When I've done this in the past with technical descriptions, you criticize my understanding of physiology.

Nyiregyhazi is just doing to you what you've done to others in the past - press them to be rigorous and exact in their descriptions.
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#1407131 - 03/30/10 01:34 PM Re: mental practice [Re: FunkyLlama]
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#1407133 - 03/30/10 01:35 PM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
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I repeat:


When you play your hands in reverse by memory (ie left hand plays right and vice versa), you can see what happens without muscle memory. I wonder if kbk can do this for those pieces he learns (supposedly) without involving muscle memory. If not, it proves what a gross misconception his premise is based on.


If you cannot do this, you are dependent on muscle memory. It is what ALLOWS you to play. If you are remotely interested in thinking about the topic, deal with this simple chain of logic.

Stop making this naively simplistic polarisation towards blindly unaided muscle memory and try thinking for once. Why does your method of learning not permit you to switch your hands over at will and play the very same notes with flawless accuracy? Perhaps because it promotes muscle memory that cannnot be carried across? I look forward to seeing you change the subject...
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#1407134 - 03/30/10 01:36 PM Re: mental practice [Re: Kreisler]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Nyiregyhazi is just doing to you what you've done to others in the past - press them to be rigorous and exact in their descriptions.
What's wrong with aidans'? I thought it was quite clear.
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#1407144 - 03/30/10 01:41 PM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
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Not quite. It overlooks that your whole premise is geared towards building muscle memory. See my post above for a simple illustration of that...
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#1407145 - 03/30/10 01:42 PM Re: mental practice [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
If you cannot do this, you are dependent on muscle memory. It is what ALLOWS you to play.
Where do I say you are not dependent on muscle memory? Again words in my mouth.
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#1407155 - 03/30/10 01:52 PM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
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So you are indeed promoting a method that hugely promotes muscule memory, in the name of AVOIDING it (but you acknowledge that it is indeed required- despite the goal of avoiding it via this promotional method)? Well, that clears everything up nicely. Clearly you would sooner claim to have been promoting out and out nonsense than admit to having been wrong or stop to learn anything...
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#1407159 - 03/30/10 01:54 PM Re: mental practice [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
So you are indeed promoting a method that hugely promotes muscule memory,
How huge?
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#1407163 - 03/30/10 02:02 PM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
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Hugely enough that you cannot switch your hands over and achieve comparable results? I'd say that's pretty heavily geared towards muscle memory, rather than separate from it...
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#1407166 - 03/30/10 02:04 PM Re: mental practice [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
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Are you stopping to rethink things yet? Or will there be yet another irrelevant quip that Oscar Wilde might have been proud of (or rather not)?
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#1407174 - 03/30/10 02:10 PM Re: mental practice [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
Hugely enough that you cannot switch your hands over and achieve comparable results? I'd say that's pretty heavily geared towards muscle memory, rather than separate from it...
But nothing like the level of muscle memory gained at the keyboard. As I said earlier:'What you will be gaining, by avoiding it at all costs, is a far truer, purer muscle memory.' i.e. it's very hard to build mistakes in the imagination.
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#1407175 - 03/30/10 02:15 PM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
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Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
Hugely enough that you cannot switch your hands over and achieve comparable results? I'd say that's pretty heavily geared towards muscle memory, rather than separate from it...
But nothing like the level of muscle memory gained at the keyboard.


Indeed, that is precisely why nobody can do this, other than a genius, without working at the keyboard too. Because (while the hand crossing example shows that it DOES build muscle memory that is not fully transferable to an impartial mental understanding) it does not do so to a high enough level for anyone but a genius to play. But then, muscle memory should be "avoided" of course (but not "replaced", according to your important distinction). It's actually a terrible thing, not the life-blood of piano playing...

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#1407177 - 03/30/10 02:18 PM Re: mental practice [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi

Indeed, that is precisely why nobody can do this, other than a genius, without working at the keyboard too.
Where did I say don't work at a keyboard? You leave the keyboard (apart from fingering) until you've trained the motor cortex.
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#1407178 - 03/30/10 02:22 PM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
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so where does avoiding muscle memory come into this? Training the brain with regard to the movements IS muscle memory.
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#1407186 - 03/30/10 02:36 PM Re: mental practice [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
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Ah yes, but on an extremely subtle level and without the afferent nerves creating a feedback loop.
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#1407193 - 03/30/10 02:43 PM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
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Indeed, hence the importance of developing it at the piano as well, except for geniuses. You are going in circles. When are you going to admit that the idea of even seeking to avoid muscle memory is a completely flawed concept- or that when you insist on visualization of fingering that is precisely what you promote?
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#1407195 - 03/30/10 02:44 PM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
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Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Bah, internet detectives. For what it's worth, I was banned by my own request. >_>

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#1407196 - 03/30/10 02:48 PM Re: mental practice [Re: FunkyLlama]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: FunkyLlama
For what it's worth, I was banned by my own request. >_>
Hey, hopefully that'll give a certain person an idea!
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#1407204 - 03/30/10 03:10 PM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
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Yes, apologies for being a constant thorn in your side by utilising rational thinking, when I observe definable contradications in the various things you regurgitate from others without thinking them through.
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#1407209 - 03/30/10 03:15 PM Re: mental practice [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
When are you going to admit that the idea of even seeking to avoid muscle memory is a completely flawed concept- or that when you insist on visualization of fingering that is precisely what you promote?
I'll put it this way - Create muscle memory in the motor cortex only. Avoid creating any afferent nerve feedback loops! Technical enough for you? (and Kreisler?)
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#1407213 - 03/30/10 03:22 PM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
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Overly technical, and not even very meaningful, actually. Nobody asked for a larger quantity of technical jargon. We complained about inconsistency and practically dubious explanations. It is of no issue which part of the brain is used, practically speaking. What is important is that you totally contradicted yourself by insisting that your method is about avoiding muscle memory, when it is specifically geared towards promoting it. If you actually wish to avoid it, you must also avoid visualizing fingerings- not insist on thinking about them. The method you describe is very widely known but your explanation shows that you completely misunderstood the procedure and what it actually offers. Are you yet willing to have the humiltiy to admit both that you were completely on the wrong track in claiming that you need to avoid muscle memory and in claiming that this method contributes to that? If not, I'd suggest you remove the fingerings from your visualizations as a matter of urgency. It would put you on a far more efficient path towards your goal. I'm not exactly convinced you'd be one of the rare few who could flourish this way- but at least you would be practising what you preach, instead of the very opposite.

Incidentally, you didn't ever comment on the notable discrepancy between your claims about always memorising and the fact you always use scores on your films. Are you simply trying to impress people with evidentially dubious claims, or do you actually practise any of what you claim to "always" (I quote) do when learning music? Are you here wanting to advise and assist, or to attempt to create a glorified image of yourself to others- based on making inflated claims about yourself and refusing to acknowledge transparent flaws in your suggestions to other, rather than seeking to converge upon rounded understanding?
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#1407218 - 03/30/10 03:32 PM Re: mental practice [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
What is important is that you totally contradicted yourself by insisting that your method is about avoiding muscle memory, when it is specifically geared towards promoting it.
For most people muscle memory is separate from visual memory which is separate from aural memory which is separate from theory memory. In reality they are all motor (muscle) memory if you look at a subtle enough level. For Reich and Trager (and probably James) even emotional memory is a muscle memory! So, you talkin’ psychology or piano-player-in-the-street? Most posters are the latter I would think and understand learning using the multiple memory model.

Quote:
Incidentally, you didn't ever comment on the notable discrepancy between your claims about always memorising and the fact you always use scores on your films.
Again words in my mouth. Where did I say I always memorize? I said 'Years ago I realized I might as well start memorizing anything I'm seriously interested in rather than read through the score,'. I can only think of one piece video'd that I'm seriously interested in. What's your beef?
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#1407221 - 03/30/10 03:39 PM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
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"For most people muscle memory is separate from visual memory which is separate from aural memory which is separate from theory memory."

On what grounds? I do not accept that for a moment- not even in the most physically based learning. While almost all could benefit from drawing greater associations, it is not remotely accurate to think that they even COULD be entirely separated.

"In reality they are all motor (muscle) memory if you look at a subtle enough level. For Reich and Trager (and probably James) even emotional memory is a muscle memory! So, you talkin’ psychology or piano-player-in-the-street? Most posters are the latter I would think and understand learning using the multiple memory model."

Who refers to aural or visual learning as 'muscle memory'? I certainly don't. Do you? If so, this makes your idea of seeking to avoid muscle memory MORE of a nonsense, not less! did you even THINK before raising this irrevelant point? It's certainly a nice way to muddy the waters and confuse the issue, but far from standrard terminology. I have never encountered the terms outside of reference to learning based on movement.

Why are you so keen to change the subject rather acknowledge the simple rational implications, should you think this through. You would sooner cloud the issue in vaguery,rather than consider the evident practical issues and the evident flaws in the logic you presented? Why is it so hard for you to acknowledge an error and learn from it?

"Years ago I realized I might as well start memorizing anything I'm seriously interested in rather than read through the score, as that's the eventual outcome anyway. I now realize, and Matthay amongst many others concur, that you don't know a piece unless you can perform it in your head note-for-note finger-for-finger - so I'm starting there. Only when I can play a section in my head will I take it to the piano because that's how it ultimately must be anyhow"

You really don't make this difficult- except for yourself...

If you ever practise what you claim- why have you do almost never upload anything you actually know? You prefer to misrepresent yourself by only recording yourself in pieces you cannot play? Who are you trying to fool here?
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#1407230 - 03/30/10 03:45 PM Re: mental practice [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi

If you ever practise what you claim- why have you do almost never upload anything you actually know?
I knew it would get to this. Once again you demand a video. As I said last time - Who do you think you are?
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#1407235 - 03/30/10 03:47 PM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
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My 'claim' is pretty simple. On a certain level afferent signals simply confuse motor learning.
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#1407238 - 03/30/10 03:48 PM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
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To make claims that you cannot substantiate is frequently known as bravado. Still, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. No doubt you do usually practise what you preach. Evidently you are just a masochist who likes to downplay his abilities in public (by only recording pieces that are read from scores) and save the repetoire that you actually learn to a high standard with this method (of only taking things to the piano when you can play them in your head) for private consumption only. At least, that's the only credible alternative that I can immediately conceive of...
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#1407239 - 03/30/10 03:49 PM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
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Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
My 'claim' is pretty simple. On a certain level afferent signals simply confuse motor learning.


Yes, but that's a new claim and not one that ever came into this previously.


Edited by Nyiregyhazi (03/30/10 04:02 PM)
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#1407242 - 03/30/10 03:52 PM Re: mental practice [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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PS. I did not request a video and neither am I intersted in one. I pointed out a glaring discrepancy between your claims and what is evidenced. If you would care to clear that up by uploading some of your mentally learned repetoire from memory that is your business. I don't particularly wish to view any more films, however and did not ask for any,
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#1407243 - 03/30/10 03:55 PM Re: mental practice [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
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Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
My 'claim' is pretty simple. On a certain level afferent signals simply confuse motor learning.


Yes, but that's a new claim and not one that ever came into this previously. Where on earth are you going?
Just another way to put it. But suggesting to musicians they 'lower the level of their afferent signaling' may cause some confusion.
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#1407245 - 03/30/10 03:57 PM Re: mental practice [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
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Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
I pointed out a glaring discrepancy between your claims and what is evidenced.
You'll be needing to point out that 'glaring discrepancy' Mr Hyperbole.
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#1407248 - 03/30/10 04:03 PM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
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Fine, I'll repeat it. You said:

"Years ago I realized I might as well start memorizing anything I'm seriously interested in rather than read through the score, as that's the eventual outcome anyway. I now realize, and Matthay amongst many others concur, that you don't know a piece unless you can perform it in your head note-for-note finger-for-finger - so I'm starting there. Only when I can play a section in my head will I take it to the piano because that's how it ultimately must be anyhow"

Yet you have scarcely uploaded a single film from memory- despite the claim about how only when you can play a section in your head. Perhaps this does not strike you as any discrepancy? I'll leave others to make their own theories about what this implies about your claim...
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#1407250 - 03/30/10 04:06 PM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Registered: 07/24/09
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Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
My 'claim' is pretty simple. On a certain level afferent signals simply confuse motor learning.


Yes, but that's a new claim and not one that ever came into this previously. Where on earth are you going?
Just another way to put it. But suggesting to musicians they 'lower the level of their afferent signaling' may cause some confusion.


Not to me, sorry. I understand the sentence perfectly- which is why I am so puzzled that you made it for the first time midthread rather than continue with the subject matter. Would you like to start a new topic perhaps, as I see zero relevance to what has been under discussion- or at least what WOULD have been under discussion were you not wasting everybody's time trying to defend your ego by attempting justify false premises rather than admit to them.
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#1407251 - 03/30/10 04:06 PM Re: mental practice [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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I haven't uploaded anything I'm seriously interested in (apart from one) - already said that.
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#1407253 - 03/30/10 04:08 PM Re: mental practice [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
suggesting to musicians they 'lower the level of their afferent signaling' may cause some confusion.
Well, I'm so glad that makes sense to you! Different strokes...
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#1407257 - 03/30/10 04:12 PM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
I haven't uploaded anything I'm seriously interested in (apart from one) - already said that.


Interesting...
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#1407267 - 03/30/10 04:28 PM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
suggesting to musicians they 'lower the level of their afferent signaling' may cause some confusion.
Well, I'm so glad that makes sense to you! Different strokes...


Yes, that's right- quoting rote learned terms from a physiology textbook does not automatically win an argument by default. Particuarly when all you do is quote, without bothering to even attempt to establish context or relevance. That does not further a discussion. It just makes the person who prefers to try to impress with jargon, (rather than follow a chain of logic) look rather silly (often causing an embarassed silence, when done in a public, which some people sadly mistake as a sign that everyone is impressed by their use of a word). Sorry, but not everyone is going to respond by saying, "Congratulations, you introduced a terms that is beyond my own knowledge. Clearly you are an expert and I bow down to your knowledge of terminology. Never mind all the rational contradictions you've spent the whole day pursuing. You know more jargon.".
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#1407269 - 03/30/10 04:32 PM Re: mental practice [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Context for including afferent nerves in a mental practice thread? Wha???
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#1407270 - 03/30/10 04:32 PM Re: mental practice [Re: aidans]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: aidans
I'm new to this forum, but I've gotten the sense that kbk likes to mess with people.....

Either that, or he doesn't realize what he's saying.
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#1407271 - 03/30/10 04:33 PM Re: mental practice [Re: Mark_C]
keyboardklutz Offline
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No, the former (that's the cruel bit).
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#1407274 - 03/30/10 04:34 PM Re: mental practice [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
Mark_C Offline
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Your patience is extraordinary.
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#1407275 - 03/30/10 04:36 PM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
Mark_C Offline
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Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
No, the former (that's the cruel bit).

I hope everyone here will see what you've just said.

It will spare them spending/wasting a lot of time.
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#1407278 - 03/30/10 04:37 PM Re: mental practice [Re: Mark_C]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Winding people up? I say something wrong??
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#1407279 - 03/30/10 04:37 PM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Context for including afferent nerves in a mental practice thread? Wha???


Yes, that's right. You need to introduce a context, if they are of any relevance. I know full well what the terms means and I see no relevance to the issues under discussin at all. After this is a PRACTICAL discussion, not an open university anatomy course. As I said, if you are frequently met with silence (as I suspect) when you introduce such terms to conversations without establishing context, that is because people are too embarrased to respond to such a transparent attempt at one-up-manship, not because they are overwhelmed by deference to somebody who has correcetly learned an unusal word.
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#1407282 - 03/30/10 04:40 PM Re: mental practice [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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One of the major benefits of mental practice is less noise from the afferent nerves. Is that context? I'm baffled here.
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#1407283 - 03/30/10 04:40 PM Re: mental practice [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
Well, at least it clarifies how to give ACCURATE explanations and understanding, when you have to deal with a complete imbecile. Fortunately, my students are far better at absorbing simple logical premises. Arguably I'm learning something by being forced to explain things in simple terms to an idiot. I wonder what kbk draws from this?
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#1407284 - 03/30/10 04:43 PM Re: mental practice [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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For what it's worth I just reported this post. Do you really think you can call people imbeciles and idiots?
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#1407286 - 03/30/10 04:45 PM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
One of the major benefits of mental practice is less noise from the afferent nerves. Is that context? I'm baffled here.


And? Nobody ever argued against the benefits of mental practise. So what is your point? Why are you suddently introducing this? The whole discussion was about your nonsensical assertions about the nature of muscle memory and how it is supposedly harmful- coupled with your definable error in claiming the muscle-memory based method you started was based on avoiding muscle memory. So rather than admit to that, you choose to introduce a separate issue about anatomy, without explanation or context, or supportive evidence? And you wonder why whole rooms of people often go silent when you start to speak at parties?
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#1407287 - 03/30/10 04:46 PM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
Nyiregyhazi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
For what it's worth I just reported this post. Do you really think you can call people imbeciles and idiots?


Yeah, when they give extremely flawed advice that goes in the face of all logic to other posters (not to mention openly admitting to deliberately acting like a fool so as to spoil any hope of a proper discussion) I think that it would be criminal not to. I'll run back and report a selection of your own posts.

Frankly, if I was the moderator, I'd have banned you from this forum a long time ago. You openly admit to using it to wind people up, rather than as place to engage in serious discussions? Small wonder that so many people have sent me private messages to thank me for countering the persistent bilge and condescending manner that you perpetually employ. Various posters have told me that they just avoid making posts, rather than subject themselves to your sarcastic responses. This forum would be a far richer place without you. I select the word idiot, after extremely willful thought, not as a knee-jerk reaction.
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#1407289 - 03/30/10 04:47 PM Re: mental practice [Re: Nyiregyhazi]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nyiregyhazi
And you wonder why whole rooms of people often go silent when you start to speak at parties?
Rudeness is the best you can do?
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#1407300 - 03/30/10 05:02 PM Re: mental practice [Re: keyboardklutz]
Kreisler Offline



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Multiple moderation requests = topic locked.
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