Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Teachers Forum Does anyone do progress reports?

There is nothing romantic about it really. Not grading piano lessons does not entail allowing your kid to avoid practice. I think it is quite all right and necessary in fact to insist on a practice routine.

The real issue here is what are you, as a parent, going to do about a "bad piano grade"? I know that some parents attach the same reward and punishment system to piano practice, but that rarely pays off in long term dividends. In middle and high school, no punishment, not even taking away electronic gadgets, will be sufficient to coax decent practice. After all at that stage, it is learning musicality that matters and not checking off the theory worksheets..

A balanced approach whereby you help the child in his /her younger years to commit to a practice routine and to enjoy music seems to be a better strategy. Your hope is to eventually reach a point (in the early teens) where there is at least a substantial component of self-motivation to music study. Otherwise the enterprise is doomed to fail, IMHO. Of course, like any generalization, this may not apply to all kids and all families.

Different strokes for different folks. With private pupils I have the luxury of meeting parents very regularly. The school kids are nearly 100% first generation music students (parents have never had lessons - in fact some practically denigrate it). You're basically doing their job for them, otherwise only the exceptional make any progress.

Sancte bovinus, what the heck is that!

Sancte bovinus, that's it!

First of all, it's not how long, but how. Secondly, if a child starts at age 12, when he is in grade 8 at school, and wants to audition for a good placement (which you do mid-grade 12), then he has less than 5 years to be competitive. Not ten. "Vague benefits" certainly wouldn't cut it. That was our scenario.

Landorrano, what's with the bovines? And if bovinus, male, does that constitute "bull"?

"Holy Cow", in sophisticated Andorran..
oops is that a bad word, Kreisler?

I see performances as their report card. The parent and child can see for themselves what they have achieved and what other kids have achieved. It motivates kids just like a test.

I have given skills checklists to a parent who requested it. A primer skills checklist so the parent can see what we will be covering...and now a level 1 skills list.

I'm not talking about that child.

That child, preparing for a competitive placement out of high school, is already motivated.

That child is very likely failing math because it isn't important to him.

I'm talking about the other 99.99% of children, who pass all their other school subjects but do not practice enough piano. It strikes me that the same grading system that is HIGHLY effective at producing performance in the other subjects MIGHT improve piano as well.

I'm not talking about that child.

That child, preparing for a competitive placement out of high school, is already motivated.

That child is very likely failing math because it isn't important to him.

I'm talking about the other 99.99% of children, who pass all their other school subjects but do not practice enough piano. It strikes me that the same grading system that is HIGHLY effective at producing performance in the other subjects MIGHT improve piano as well.

What I'm really talking about are reinforcement schedules, in psychological terms. Sooner is better, oftener is better. Working for a benefit that may be years away does not motivate people as well as working for a monthly paycheck, which is not as good as working for a weekly exam, etc.

TimR, originally my point was more in the direction of questioning the idea of 10 years of practicing giving "10 years of vague benefits". That's rather dismal. If it took that long to reach so little, then the extreme case of the late starter needing to reach a certain proficiency early would be impossible. He would only be half ways toward "vague benefits". I already know that isn't the case. We could get into the old story of effective practice. In other scenarios in the ABF we have discussed the poor prognosis of adults, where you cited your experience with choirs. But there, too, the question of how people practice was not addressed. I joined and quit 3 choirs in the last decade, because I outstripped each of them, and rehearsal was an agony. With the first, I still had almost no musical training. But the reason for my rapid progress and their snail pace was because of how I approached things, and they didn't.

That's for the first point. This is a teacher forum. How we practice, and with what attitude, will affect the results. As student this part is my responsibility. The teachers are the guides toward it too.

You brought up something broader:

This reflects a common life attitude in our society. That is - our activities being governed by distant goals that have been set by someone else. Within this scenario, we don't do a thing for its own sake, or out of interest, but because of some other thing. It is so ingrained in society that we take it for granted. I am not calling it right or wrong, but point out that it exists and other options exist.

Small children are fascinated by a thing and pursue it for no other purpose. There is an inner drive. The toddler learning to walk, or get at the cookie jar, is absolutely focused on that task. The skills he acquires while scheming to get at the cookies are secondary. If as adults we could be as focussed and single-minded, the things we could achieve! But society interferes with this natural ability. We start directing people. They should not do math because it's interesting, but because they will get high marks and our approval. We call this "motivation". It isn't. That is ... the child no longer aims to excel at math. He aims to get good grades. That is something else. The math. itself is no longer interesting or important. He is disengaged from his activities. What he does at school is for the teacher or adults. His real interests and pursuits are the other things he does. It is an alienation.

We have induced kids to work toward external secondary things which are other people's goals, and not their own. The grades, diplomas, stars on the wall comparing him with other kids, are all part of it. That is his world and so it becomes his mentality. That does not mean it is human nature. IF music can be a personal interest, pursued with fascination for its own sake, then instituting that same thing will kill it the same way. That is, the kid will practice for approval, grades etc. But he himself won't be in it in the same way. Will he dare explore and play, during which he risks making mistakes, if approval and high grades are at stake? It's a sad thought.



As an educator, I'd like to examine this. WHAT is achieved? As far as testing is concerned, the child who knows how to take tastes and guess what type of answer is wanted will achieve high grades. Getting high grades is not the same as understanding the material. Students who have a much greater understanding may get a low grade because they can't enter the institution's mindset. What is WORSE is that the student who is fascinated by the subject and wants to explore, is prevented from doing so, since he has to prepare for these tests in their limited scope of measurable results.

If you are a teacher then you will know that teachers are forced to work toward things that are unimportant but can be measured, and real teaching and learning are severely hampered. Are you aware that teachers form a disproportionate percentage of homeschooling parents because teachers are the most likely to keep their kids out of school in the formative years?


What motivates is having your own goals, and then deciding how to reach those goals. Some of them are "of necessity" goals - we need to be able to read, write, and do math, in order to get by. Some are "by fascination" goals.

What helped me when I was in school was to get engrossed in the subject. Frankly, I found grades and other people's assessments of me annoying and beside the point. These points and grades and stuff are boring as heck, and it would have been hard to stay focused for any length of time while chasing that carrot.

Work-wise - There are people who are engrossed in their job for its own sake. Most often they are probably self-employed people. That choice is certainly not just due to monetary considerations: you work harder, earn less, carry greater risks, and there is no security for old age, accident, or health. So why do do we do it? This is the other kind of motivation. It's the more old fashioned satisfaction that the craftsman had who took pride in his work. Musicianship belongs to this craftsmanship as well.

Tests and reports do have their roles. But if they are used as motivational devices I become uneasy.

Call this a Sunday philosophical moment.

Keystring, I agree with you completely!!!!!!

My students who ask "but why do I have to learn this?" are not at all 'motivated'! They are working to rule, working to the certificate, the percentile, and the need to be seen to be something or some other thing.

I'm only interested in the students who are interested in learning. Interested in certificate collecting? In trophy acquisition? In being ranked number 1? Well, you know, you might well achieve all those things while you learn with me, but it's unlikely you'll be interested in becoming a musician, and imagine the waste of time you will find all the activities I assign which help you develop your musical skills for life?!

The most motivated students (motivated to learn) are also motivated to achieve, but students who are only motivated to achieve don't seem to care so much for learning.........

Music learning is and needs to to be a much broader church. After all, you'd tell your children anything to get them out of a burning building!

"Math teachers don't gripe about kids not doing homework. If they don't, they fail them. So most do the work."

Well, many. I recall a little scene from a college math class: a young lady was making cow eyes at the prof, trying to get him to confer a passing grade. "Mooooo," she was saying. "MOOOOOOO!!!" He was as pleasant and encouraging as could be with her (though I remember his suggesting she study), then time came to begin the class, and he broke free from the sidewalk embrace of the importuneress.

"That guy just doesn't like me--- I don't know why!" she wailed to no one in particular. Indeed, no one was listening.

It crossed my mind that I had seen her for, maybe, as many as one-quarter of the classes. I had never seen her hand-in a homework assignment. Had never seen her face in the library. Etc. I remember wondering, "How did she get into college?" It was a question I was never to answer.

However, I had observed her, many times, gossiping in the refectory with her buddies, before a table spread with greasy plates, jumbo-sized sugary soft drinks, and french fry wrappers, and no books.

She got an F in the math course (she complained loudly about it); the refectory colloquia were ungraded but she would have gotten at least a C+ if a grade had been granted.

So there, Tim. What do you have to say for structured learning now?

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depiction of the future redacted as both cruel and obvious

Do you think you could get rid of some of those stars now? Point taken.

My daughter attended a symposium on "Engaged Learning" last Friday at her college. She said it was attended predominantly by faculty, but a few students were invited, mainly from the Arts fields (she is a junior, violin major).

She found it very interesting in general, and thought-provoking. Toward the end, when they were drawing conclusions, many seemed to be determining that grades were unnecessary and counter productive. She said she was beginning to get discouraged and frustrated and nervous with their conclusions, but without words to explain why. Finally, another student spoke up and said no, we need grades.

Some of the points made included:
1. Grades provide motivation during those periods when internal motivation is ebbing.

2. Grades provide objective feedback, rather than "teacher likes me" or not. For non-musical parents, it also provides information they can't get by listening. (I've previewed potential recital pieces with parents in the room, who then negate the choise because it "sounds too easy." When the kid actually begins learning it, the parents are astounded at how much trouble the student is having with it. I suspect these parents are ones at recital who thinks everyone who makes a mistake is playing something harder than those who play smoothly. No way a recital would be an effective progress report for that parent.)

3. Grades are only effective when they evaluate appropriate, and attainable goals. The gym teacher who gives all football players A's, and everyone else gets B's, gives a certain message. The band teacher who grades solely on attendance gives a certain message. The language arts teachers who assigns an essay to build creativity, and then grades on font size, gives a certain message. Therefore, before creating your evaluation rubrik, consider what you want to evaluate, and what message you want to send.

I love internal motivation. Listening to a quality youth orchestra can be exciting, because the students are playing purely for the love of it. On the other hand, take away the paycheck and annual reviews of symphony members, and I do not believe it would be an effective way to keep those professionals motivated and engaged.

The major reason a paycheck keeps people motivated is not that these musicians need a financial incentive to make music but that they need to pay the bills one way or another, and if they spend 40-50 hours a week doing something non-musical to make a living then by necessity they have 40-50 hours less per week in which to make music.

I could make great money turning my intellect to another profession - and yet I work in music making not great money at all!! Of course, I receive other kinds of 'rewards' but grades are not part of this 'motivation'.

Students at college are already in a particular learning environment in which most of the activities would seem pointless without a grade being attached: the students are there specifically to gain a qualification! So this group is self-selecting to prefer grades, and they enculturated to find a grade providing a sense of purpose to their work.

But when discussing how humans learn it is clear that most great discoveries, great creativity and great intellectual developments occur in a grade-free environment! So what motivates these people?!

These people are adults. The majority being grateful for being prodded at some point along their intellectual journey.

So.... infants/toddlers/children up to the age of about ... 8/9? 11/12? are motivated by interest in acquiring skills and learning about the world..... and adults don't need external motivation...... so are we narrowing this 'motiviation' thing down to teenagers? That matches a lot of brain development research, actually!!

Yes, that's a point - otherwise they disappear into a world of MSN and Facebook.