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I have a 7 year old student who wants to know the origin the treble and bass clef names. He wants to know why they are called "treble clef" and "bass clef". Anyone pondered that question and have an answer?

I'm sure somewhere, some obscure treatise spells out the origin, but as higher notes are treble notes and lower notes are bass notes, it would seem logical to label the G and F clefs treble and bass clefs respectively.

Well, bass is from Latin bassus (low), so I think it's just called the low clef because it's low. Treble is from Latin triplus (triple). I don't know about that.

Are they called bass clef and treble clef outside of piano teaching? Would a flutist say treble clef or G clef? Would a cellist say bass clef or F clef?

The terms bass clef and treble clef make no sense except when the grand-staff is used, with middle c as the note between the 5th and 6th lines.

As far as I know, in no other language are the terms bass and treble clef used.

Voices! Treble, soprano, alto, tenor, bass clefs - for treble, soprano, alto, tenor, bass voices. (I'm reading through some Bach cantatas at the moment and though I read alto and tenor clefs fairly fluently the soprano clef is giving me a shake-up from time to time )

Where I am they certainly say bass and treble clef (and alto and tenor clef - just calling these C clef wouldn't distinguish between the two. Violists sometimes call the alto clef the viola clef)

Checking "Essential Dictionary of Music" - Alfred Publishers:

Bass - "low"

Treble - "high"

From the keyboard orientation: Down is to the left/you can hear the music descending on the white keys in stepwise progression from middle C, like a staircase, walking down to lower and lower sounds (pitches). Up is to the right/ascending from middle C, higher and higher.

From the music staff orientation: The placement of note heads determines the pitch based on the line or space it is place on.

The usic staff coordinates with the keyboard diagram.

And, yes, piano being played on a grand staff with treble and bass clefs braced together. The 88 keys on a piano are distributed over the grand staff using 8va, and 15va to find the registers in which the A-G occur.

Edited to underline

Betty Patnude

There are a whole range of different clefs, as shown in this link:

Clefs article in Wikipedia

Historically in organum, when there were three voices, the third top voice was called "triplum" (which means third). That's where that came from. (Thanks, Kreisler, for recommending the Grout book).

I did not know this, nor did I know the word "triplex".

I like this source for a quick answer:

http://www.answers.com/topic/triplex-triplum

I will still mostly point to the right for most of my students.

Hard to believe what you folks don't know. In monasteries there was always three types of voices bass, tenor and boy's - boys being the third from the bottom. What the heck do you tell your kids? I tell them historically they are the notes boys, girls and women can sing.

Well, that's why we all come here, to hopefully become as wise and well-informed as you are.

In fact, not a night goes by that I don't greatly envy your students, who quite obviously have the Best Teacher in the World.

Interesting, of course, is that the tenors would be mostly teenagers whose voices are working toward bass. Best Teacher?? Best Learner maybe.

Hee hee! Best wikipedia searcher!

That would have been difficult as the web didn't exist when I went to Uni.

Yes, that's it.

Your adult students might find it interesting to go into such things. I also found that teens often go into surprising amounts of history when they play certain kinds of on-line games, the Middle Ages being a particular area of fascination. It is amazing what they end up knowing. Incidentally the background music will have the flavour of that period, which might be a good take-off point (I know, I know - no time - but still )

Actually CPE Bach and his dad used the soprano clef for keyboard works. As the highest note was E above the stave it must have made sense. He referred to the treble clef as the violin clef and had to have all his keyboard works reprinted for Paris where they used our modern system.

Also alto clef instead of bass, too, at times (I have a facsimile edition of the inventions - soprano clef plus a mixture of bass and alto)

I've had it out the library. Frustrating isn't it.

That would be fun to read. I guess that more of the music would stay on the staves?

Is it known whether Bach and sons used the terminology "soprano clef", "violin clef" etc ?

For the clef -- the key, that is -- is the symbol, placed upon the staff to identify the placement of a note. I would think that terms like treble clef or violin clef, which make reference to the staff with the clef posed upon it, are effectively slang expressions, like "non-legato".

I have a German Schaum Piano Primer, which does call the clefs Baßschlüssel and Violinschlüssel.

Landorrano, "violin clef" is the name used in German and most language to designate the clef that is known as treble clef in English. The lines and spaces of the staff cover the range of E4 to F5.

"Soprano clef" is a different clef spanning a different range. You will find the various historical & present clefs near the bottom of this article that was cited before by someone:
Wikki - article about clefs.

This is a soprano clef:


The clefs themselves are symbols of letter names. The treble clef is a stylized G and circles around the line showing where G is. There used to be a number of them in different positions. The bass clef is a stylized F.

The clef symbol in the soprano clef is a stylized C and always points to middle C. It is known as the C-clef. When in another position on the staff it is the "alto clef" because the notes on the staff are in the range of an alto voice, while in another position it is the "tenor clef".

The clefs (symbols) combined with their position on the staff allow for the range of notes that the instrument uses to be shown comfortably without needing too many ledger lines. The clef (symbol) itself points to a particular note. The clef + staff give a range of notes that lie on, above, or below that clef.

Yes, in CPE's letters to his publisher he talks of violin clef and here they are in Bach's own handwriting (notice there are actually three different F clefs!):

An interesting document. Is that for voice? It's hard to read the last line. The last of the three says "Tief Bass" which must be the lowest bass.

It's page 1 of the Klavierbüchlein für Wilhelm Friedemann Bach.

Thank you.

That excerpt lists voices: soprano, mezzo soprano, alto, tenor, three ranges of bass in the illegible line. Do you know whether he was also giving an overview of theory in general going beyond the keyboard, on that first page?

It would seem one studied clefs early on, which is no bad thing. All the clefs were very much in use at the time and the Bach family would be singing, playing and writing in all of them. It's not theory it's practice.

It is not a bad thing at all. Thank you for that information.

Actually it's an excellent way to transpose.

Very interesting.

To get back to Ann's question, from the point of view of her student, I would think that he's asking "what the heck is that?".

I would suppose that what he needs to see is that the symbols are deformations or embellishments of the letters F and G (and C, for the C clef).

And that, very simply, they indicate where the note is found.

That provides a starting point for reading, instead of that horrid "every good boy does fine".

Thanks for your responses! This child has seen how the bass and treble clef symbols are derived from the letters F and G, but I can remind him of that. His real concern was about the names though, and he didn't ask about the symbols.

I'll tell him that "bass" clef comes from the Latin bassus which means low. And that "treble" clef comes from Latin "triplus" meaning third. I'll explain that in writing for 3 voices the top voice was referred to as the third voice (treble).

I've book marked www.answers.com since it looks like a site that could really come in handy!

Also tell him they are notes in his vocal range as opposed to his dad's.

Bassus is a Latin adjective meaning "thick, fat, stumpy, short" . It is fascinating if true that the Romans used it to describe pitch but it certainly doesn't mean low (in a spatial sense)! I think the Romans would have meant 'base' as in supporting structure.

True enough, good point.



Hey wait a minute, you aren't going to tell the kid that his dad is thick, fat and stumpy!

Could it possibly be that they were thinking of the string? The lowest string would be thick and fat. This could even lead directly to an exploration of the innards of a piano.

I think the point is Roman, like most cultures, don't use the spatial low/high metaphor. It's pretty much nonsense. Big notes/small notes as in much of Africa is far more sensible or even thick/thin.

Fascinating!

In fact bass as in a base for the music makes much more sense. It's not as if those notes lie under the piano while the treble hover over head!

The clef signs for piano are really not needed. I think they come from a time when notation was "penned" with ink and represent the flourishes of "calligraphy".

The simplicity of the idea is much better represents by the simple bolding of the bass F and the treble G lines along with middle C which could be bolded with in use also. It's only to designate the 5th fingers showing the dominant and sub-dominates of the Key of C afterall. It's about C as tonic and Middle C as centered to the keyboard and the music staff with a shared thumbs on C as the structure. Nine natural white notes in all in that position. This being the key in which all notes are white notes nothing else needs to be accomodated in what is really the first step to understanding the notation and playing of the keyboard. All else comes later with experience and logic.

I'm for the KISS method of minimalization.

The word clef simply means "key".

I have a question for anyone out there I just got an old piano given to me and wanted to find information about it but can't find much information about it. If someone would be so gracefull to help me I would really appriciate it. I have a Grinnell Bros. grand upright the serial# is 16125 I know that it is at the least 44 years or better. Please if you know anything write me back.

I am curious about something. Accompanists - do you ever have reason to be familiar with the alto or tenor clefs?

Of course, because we have to not only read the parts of soloists but also, at times, help them with their parts.

We also have to be able to read music that is transposed, such as Bb trumpet, Eb sax, F horn, and so on...

The familiarity with alto and tenor clefs would come with practice. If you were to accompany soloists who use these clefs regularly then you would become better at it yourself.

You should understand the clefs and know how to work them out at least.

Maddugger, you should post your question in the piano forum for more response.

I was taught that and it works! That's probably why it's on page one of WF's Buchlein.

Thousands of kids have seen those symbols and never wondered.

He's a keeper!

I wish there were a way to teach that.

My Latin scholar brother tells me bass (as in bassus) was never used by the Romans. He says they used gravis (as in accent grave in French - the one that goes down)