Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Topic Options
#1406151 - 03/29/10 10:56 AM determining key of two pieces in PA 3A
Red, Piano Mom Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/23/09
Posts: 13
Can any of you all help me? I am trying to figure out what key the following songs are in PA 3A: Cossack Ride, Lunar Eclipse and Malaguena. I think the first one is in D Minor... but I am not at all cure about the other two, being theory-weak. Thanks for your help,

Red

Top
(ads P/S)
Petrof Pianos

piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#1406843 - 03/30/10 03:22 AM Re: determining key of two pieces in PA 3A [Re: Red, Piano Mom]
Volusiano Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/10
Posts: 770
If you can tell people here what the key signatures are for the pieces (how many sharps or flats shown), the major and minor keys can be determined from the signature. Whether it's the major or corresponding minor key is a little harder to determine. But one can look at the notes to determine the chords' composition which will give you some clue about whether it's major or minor.

Top
#1407135 - 03/30/10 01:36 PM Re: determining key of two pieces in PA 3A [Re: Volusiano]
KrAYZEE Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/14/09
Posts: 83
Loc: Los Angeles
I'm about to start this book so I gave it a look. Neither Cossack nor Lunar eclipse have sharps or flats shown in the key signatures.

Cossack ride does seem to be in Dm. The many b flat accidentals look to be part of a minor IV chord

Lunar Eclipse I'm thinking is in C minor because most of the accidentals are flat E's and it ends on a C

These are just beginners guesses.

Malaguena, I don't see in PA 3a. Is it from the performance book?

Kurt

Top
#1407572 - 03/31/10 03:54 AM Re: determining key of two pieces in PA 3A [Re: KrAYZEE]
Basia C. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/02/09
Posts: 358
Loc: Sweden
I googled a free preview showing the Cossak ride, and here is my take on it. Kurt is right about it. It is in D minor. You can see how the melody has D as a base and then flows around a little but always returning to the D.

So why is it not in C major or A minor, as the key signature would imply? Well, I can only see page 16, and there actually is a B flat in bar 7. As it should be if the piece is D minor. Usully the composer/arranger would put that B flat in the key signature instead of adding it as an accidential. This time maybe he/she thought that "Why put it in the key signatur if there is only one note in the whole piece that is affected?" Indeed confusing for a beginner!

(Hope I'm not adding to the confusion.)
_________________________
Nothing is accomplished without enthusiasm. - Ralph Waldo Emerson




Top
#1407604 - 03/31/10 05:34 AM Re: determining key of two pieces in PA 3A [Re: Basia C.]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Beginners don't understand key signatures as a rule, mostly to do with the age of the majority of students who are at this level (obviously not appropriate in an adults discussion!) learning in an experiential not intellectual fashion.

And then there is the issue of much music of the 20th century not being diatonic anyway: a piece in G based on the Mixolydian mode will have no sharps or flats in its key signature; a piece in C in the Dorian mode will have 2 flats in its key signature; and so forth.

It's best to notice which note feels like 'home' in the piece, and then to notice whether the 'home' chord is a major or minor chord: this way, no matter what decision the composer and/or publisher have made regarding key signatures, you will always know what 'key' you are in.
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

Top
#1407615 - 03/31/10 06:24 AM Re: determining key of two pieces in PA 3A [Re: Elissa Milne]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11180
Loc: Canada
For those who may not know, the two modes described can be thought of this way:

Mixylydian: Imagine a scale that goes along the white keys of the piano but goes from G to G (G,A,B,C,D,E,F,G) You will see that the half steps are between the 3rd & 4th note (B,C) - that part of it makes it sound like a major scale) and the other half step is between the 6th & 7th note (E,F) - that part makes the scale sound "different". Play the scale through a couple of times listen for the different flavour this mode has. Our major and minor scales are actually modes too, and they have distinct flavours or moods. Imagine "Baa Baa Black Sheep" played starting on G using only the white keys - it would be in Mixolydian. So a piece in Mixolydian mode would be one where the scale has its half steps in those two locations. It will have that kind of flavour. .... If a piece is in G Mixolydian, then it will have its home key, or tonic, as G, meaning that it hovers around G and probably ends on it, but no F#, and that distinct type of flavour to it.

Dorian mode: Same deal, but imagine the scale going from D to D on the white keys. D,E,F,G,A,B,C,D (this is D Dorian, btw) Your half steps of E,G and B,C are now between the 2nd & 3rd (like minor) and 6th & 7th (again) and again you have a distinct flavour. If a piece seems to have D as its tonic, but doesn't have the key signature of D major (2 sharps) or D minor (1 flat) then it might be in D Dorian, especially if it has a bit of an odd sound which isn't quite minor but seems minor-ish somehow.

The long and short of it is that if a piece seems to have the tonic being a note where you expect a certain key signature for major or minor, and it doesn't have it, then it might be in a mode.

Quote:
It's best to notice which note feels like 'home' in the piece, and then to notice whether the 'home' chord is a major or minor chord: this way, no matter what decision the composer and/or publisher have made regarding key signatures, you will always know what 'key' you are in.

That is new information for me. smile Elissa, are Dorian and Mixolydian the main modes that are used the most often or maybe even exclusively? As I wrote this out I noticed that Dorian and Mixolydian are identical in the placement of their second self of half steps (6 & 7) but differ in the 1st set of half steps. That first set make Mix. sound major, because you end up with a major chord from the tonic, and the Dorian sound minor, because of its chord (which is what you essentially refer to).

Top
#1407626 - 03/31/10 07:25 AM Re: determining key of two pieces in PA 3A [Re: keystring]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Hmm, maybe I should create a modes thread?
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

Top
#1407635 - 03/31/10 08:05 AM Re: determining key of two pieces in PA 3A [Re: Elissa Milne]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11180
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
Hmm, maybe I should create a modes thread?

In fact, that would be wonderful and much appreciated.

Top
#1407641 - 03/31/10 08:27 AM Re: determining key of two pieces in PA 3A [Re: keystring]
DragonPianoPlayer Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/12/06
Posts: 2368
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By: keystring
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
Hmm, maybe I should create a modes thread?

In fact, that would be wonderful and much appreciated.


There have been a few postings on modes on the forums, but I have not seen anything recent in the ABF>

Here are the threads from the past year with modes in their title:

Fingerings for Modes

The Arrangement is in A and Bb Dorian Modes

Confused about modes vs harmony

Jazz Piano by Mark Levine re: Modes- confusing?

Even though there have been postings on this, I agree with Keystring that it would still be good to get a perspective on this from the ABF side.

Rich
_________________________

Top

Moderator:  BB Player, casinitaly 
What's Hot!!
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
Download & Print Sheet Music Instantly
sheet music search
sheet music search

sheet music search
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
92 registered (Atrys, 3rd Ear, accordeur, 27 invisible), 1131 Guests and 30 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
74236 Members
42 Forums
153568 Topics
2250679 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Yamaha Upright - Please help identify
by awyaks
Today at 01:00 AM
song i wrote. people in clubs love it
by jedplays
Yesterday at 10:49 PM
Fazioli "factory tour" video.
by R_B
Yesterday at 10:27 PM
Piano Science
by venice1
Yesterday at 09:59 PM
MP7 vs MP11: only 6 differences?
by Marko in Boston
Yesterday at 09:08 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission