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Awright then.

Welcome to pianoworld, StevieG!

And, a big Thank You for updating the prices paid thread, too.

If you or others considered the Yamaha or Roland or Casio before choosing to buy what is now becoming the very popular choice of the Kawai CA63, it would be great if you could share your experiences here:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1363086/The

Thanks a lot!

From Apeldoorn, it is only a 20 minute drive to Van Oldeniel in Deventer. Over there I went back and forth between the CA111 and the CA63, enthusiastically concluding that the CA93 seems to combine the best of both worlds. The combination of action and sound is just great on the CA63 up to moderate volumes! For higher volumes and for getting a real experience, I definitely prefer the soundboard system of the CA93/CA111. (by the way, I know audio DSP very well and have played most software piano's before, but nothing comes close, except for the avantime maybe)

Actually, based on the technical specifications (or should I say marketing material), I originally wanted to buy a Roland HP 307, but I was very disappointed after testdriving it for about one and a half hour. The speaker system is not balanced properly; it does have a heavy bass, but the higher frequencies sound extremely harsh and digital (yes, I've read topics on this forum about this). After going through all the settings myself, trying to get it right, I asked for the guy at Oostendorp Wezep to assist, but the result was still quite unsatisfactory to my ears. The samples are way too clean to be realistic. For reference, I then tried several Yamaha DP's including the CLP 380, but in the end I only found the CVP 409 just acceptable for quality (not for price, way too expensive).

Hi Arjan,

slightly OT, sorry: I saw you were at the Oostendorp shop in Wezep. Any chance to play + test their 'Digital Classic' line? I found their sound with speakers really good (even with the inferior DP's they put into them), see my dedicated thread (now quite buried as not updated for some time). Over headphones it's a different story. I ended up ordering a custom-made solution with the Roland RD-700GX incl. the SuperNatural piano upgrade. I'll also update my other thread shortly + provide some insights once I have received it. Only negative was the price tag... Unfortunately I haven't been able to test Kawai longer.
Cheers

Hi Nachtschatten,

Good question :-)
Yes, they were friendly enough to let me try their Digital Classic line too. They look nice, but I was put-off by the mediocre plastic keyboard and the sound generation technology, taken from 'old' Yamaha or Roland stuff. They deliver two options for the speaker system, including a 6-speaker set-up (if I remember correctly). The most expensive speaker option sounds quite good, but not as refined as the Kawai Soundboard + 6-speaker system (as I experienced later on). I told Oostendorp that the Digital Classic line would be interesting for me only when they could build in a better (read: wooden) keyboard and a PC for running a software piano. Although they said that in principle this would be possible and wanted to inform me about better keyboard options after doing some research, I never got any response (at least so far)...

Did you actually compare the CA111 and the CA93 side by side?

Don't need to: Given the bigger feature-set of the CA93, the substantial improvements in sample-quality, keyboard feel & action (and slight improvements to the speaker system) that would be a terrible experience for the CA111

I'm suspecting that the CA111 will not be listed in the 2011 Kawai catalogue anymore, but I don't work at Kawai (yet)

The question I have is if there really is a noticeable difference between the CA63 and the CA93. The stores I have enquired by telephone do not / will not stock the CA93 and were even trying to talk me out of it calling it "a bad value" which I found kind of strange for a store trying to maximize sales... They indicated they would only special order it for people but would not provide auditioning in store.

I doubt that I would want to buy the CA63 since they apparently have dumbed-down the brand new RM3 action to not include escapement (which is quickly becoming a market standard for top of the line cabinet digital pianos) and which I want since I use the dp to practice and study for playing on a grand. Since I play 80% of the time with headphones, I can't see myself spending an extra 1000 euros on the combination of escapement and a so-called soundboard speaker system that in my case would be idle most of the time...

Really looking forward to your feedback after you have played it and owned it a while. So far, the owners of the CA63 are quite happy.

Indeed I am . Personally, I have only ever messed around on uprights and do not like the escapement feel. I am glad that the CA63 does not have escapement.

I have played on a CA111 and it may have been that it wasn't set up correctly, but I found that the speaker placement was quite poor. I didn't feel that the sound was directed towards the player. When I had a go on a CA93, I found that the it did not have this problem.

Andy T

Oh, I see. Actually, when I visited Van Oldeniel in Deventer, he was quite willing to order a CA93 (I could select the cabinet finish for a demo model CA93) if I was serious about either buying a CA63 or CA93 or CA111...

Yes. Say, the adjustment error is about 0,5mm that might be half the thickness of the white keytops, then a 0,25mm thick paper washer would be necessary for compensation.



This is normal. All keys have it. It is not digged, but impressed. The grey square is a smooth pillow, covered with a thin layer of teflon.

I do such stuff myself. Dont need to call a technician for this...
It is rather simple.

Peter

It sure sounds like the Kawai keyboards tend to be a bit fussy often requiring service visits even right away new out of box or during the first year or later requiring " regulation ". Guess that is the price to pay of trying to more closely emulate a realistic pivot point and hammer throw and using lots of wood.

The Yamaha keys have been reported to get sluggish and need replacement after many years of use.

On the other hand one rarely hears any complaints about the Roland keys other than some quality control problems with the fake ivory coating on the 207s.

Something to bear in mind for those of us who don't have any servicing dealers anywhere close.

It seems to me that Kawai just needs some better quality control. If someone had just played every key on my CA63 they would have noticed that one of the keys was slightly out of whack.

Andy T

Not sure what you're talking about here. The Avant-Grand definitely has double escapement. I have an N3 and when I let the key back up about half-way and press down again, I always get a sound. But if you don't let the key back up far enough to the half way point where the jack's tip get under the knuckle enough to force the hammer shank back up again(see this link and click on the red "action in motion" link to see the animation), the hammer is not going to be able to travel up to make the strike.

If you want to describe in details exactly what you did to test, I can try it out on my N3 and let you know the result. The N2 has the same action so it should behave the same.

If you guys are talking about double escapement action here, the Avant-Grand has it and can do it. I'm not sure why Sieg66 can't reproduce it on the N2 he tested. I can get it to work on my N3 just fine. The N2 has the same action. Maybe he didn't raise the key back up high enough. You don't need to raise it a lot, but you need to raise it back a little bit, just like an acoustic key.

Hi,

I just say that when you depress the key till the hard point without passing it, and then push firmly enough you get a sound in every accoustic, but I wasn't able to reproduce this with the avantgrand.

Hi Sieg66, I assume that by "the hard point" you mean about the half way point when you start pushing down slowly on the key until you feel resistance, right?

When you pushed down from this point, did you push fast enough? If you pushed too slowly (even if firmly), the hammer shank will be raised too slowly and gravity will have time to pull it back down to the back check before the hammer has a chance to strike the string. If you pushed down quickly enough, the hammer shank will be raised fast enough that the hammer will strike the string before being pulled back down by gravity.

When I tested my N3, I did get a sound from the half way point if I pressed the key quickly enough from there. But if I pressed the key too slowly, I don't get a sound (like what you reported). I think this is the desired behavior.

If other acoustic keyboards you've tried make a sound even when you pressed down slowly from the half way point, I'd say that their action is probably too sensitive. A sound is only desired if there's a purposeful "strike" (with quick enough action). But it's not desired if you just slowly bump on a key by accident (maybe while still having a finger on it for sustain).

My understanding of the AvantGrand is that its action can be regulated as an acoustic piano action (although not to the same extent). It would be interesting to get feedback from anyone who has adjusted the touch of their AvantGrand.

OT: Horowitz's Steinway with its modified touch was in Holland recently at the Steinway Center so people feel how he preferred his pianos to be prepared.

That is not possible with traditional methods.
How much time can a workers man spend with a piano? If he spends 30 minutes then he can check 16 pianos at one day. And if I did it, after the 8th piano I would start to get tired and make mistakes....
And you would need a motivated specialist or a piano enthusiast for that and there is more to check... Where can you get such reliable people if you do mass production in indonesia and elsewhere?

I like the action and the touch of Kawai pianos, but I think they could make parts like the pivot hole and other from high impact synthetics, ad justable by screws and glue those parts into the wood and then adjust them with screws, not paper washers. I believe, it is not required for a digital to do everything in the traditional way.

How much time did they need to develop the new action, and it is basically not a new development but it is the same principle with a better adjustment. A talented piano tecnician can develop this within some weeks. What did they do all the past years? ;-) There is somthing new required with escapement touch and 3 sensor technology.

I believe, innovation and technology is not their strongest point ;-)

Peter

One could argue that Kawai may be too small of a company to be attempting to do what they are attempting to do.

I would say a quick visual check to see if the keys are all lined up + playing all the keys just once to see if it feels and sounds correct (possibly without the sound switched on). I don't think that would take longer than 1 minute.

Andy