JP,

I'm embarassed to admit that I feel much the same way myself - being an European and all

Well, pppat, the truth is often like that...no one wants to hear it, and it not nice to hear from others...but, see my post above, and you'll know that my respect for those European is well placed.

Wow Patrick...listening to your beautiful piano/tuning/playing as I type this!

Mystical, magical, ethereal come to mind as I listen to this...colors galore, harmonies that soar and intermingle and grab your attention, and the piano/strings are resonating like crazy when the pedal is up....just beautiful.

I plan to record a few more selections, since I just did a quick re-tuning.

Yes, I am definitely enthusiastic about this EBVT III, even with your modification, and your recording just further cements my belief in EBVT III.

I wonder how many will be in the minority now. We really should try and keep count.

I see your mic setup...is that 3 mics I see? I only have 2...I am tempted to try the mics on the outside of the piano, like you have in your picture.

I am glad to have started this thread...it really shows how a tuning/stretch can change the character of the piano. More to come!

I am sure we may encounter an extreme polarization :-)

Grandpianoman, don´t you think it would be helpful for Bill´s tuning to identify yourself, as well as we all do here and stand with our names for what we prefer? (I know you are a well known artist in your category)

Regards,

Bernhard Stopper

Herr Stopper...I can't imagine what difference grandpianonmans "real" identity would make...he's sort of a "non-combatant"...though I could see how some might regard him as a "rogue state"...

I hold you in high regard for your honest defense of your preferences. Please don't sully that with shady 'politics'.

Mr. Delmore,

be sure my motivation for this request wasn´t shady politics. The differences we hear stand for different tastes and it may be quite interesting for the readers of this thread, if there may be a preference of tastes from artists of different categories of music.
And it would of course help EBVT III to gain acknowledge if well known artists express their preference for it. There is no need to compete or convince people of what they want to prefer.


Regards,

Bernhard Stopper

Can we honestly parse "taste"?

If that is all it comes down to, is there an argument?

With respect,
John

There is no argument about taste. But a widespread tendency of people trying to convince others from their own taste. Highly humanly.

Regards,

Bernhard Stopper

GP - the middle starting pitch numbers look pretty normal, but those ones on the bass bridge? Hmmm, usually the bass bridge pitch stays the most stable due to humidity shifts...

Glad you are getting a bit more comfortable with the software / display interface!

Ron Koval
chicagoland

Mr. Stopper, while I can understand your reasoning for asking me to divulge my identity, I have purposefully tried not to have that known here on PW. I am still active professionally, and just do not want the publicity etc. that would invariably happen. As Mr.Delmore said, I would like to remain a 'non-combatant', but I am def NOT a 'rogue state' kind of guy.

I will say this much, I am a classically trained musician, (not a pianist :), and enjoy ALL kinds of music, except hard rock.

When I was growing up, I used to love to visit this one particular friend of my mother's...she had a grand piano, and I used to sit there and just play notes. Unfortunately, my parents never picked up on the fact I loved the piano, and music in general, so consequently growing up, I did not have any support from them for music. It was not until high-school, thanks to my high school choir director, and later a music college, that propelled me along in making music my life's work. So you can understand why I love the piano so much and why I have 2 player systems in there. I can never play the piano as well as they can.

Enough about me!...:)

Last night, I did a quick re-tune of my piano, and some recording, spurred on by Patrick's recording. I have to say, while I was recording "You'll Never Walk Alone" played by Roger Wiliams, (great pianist btw), I was moved literally to tears. Part of that is due to my losing a family member some years ago to cancer. The words to "You'll Never Walk Alone" are very cathartic and they bring up painful memories. However, I also feel that this emotion was due in large part to Bill's EBVT III. The harmonies are so incredible in this tuning, that it effects one's emotions. The sound was so beautiful, especially live, words cannot fully describe the beauty and emotion this piece did for me. I wish I could have cleaned up the twangy unisons, but no matter, it's breathtaking as it is. Listen to it with a pair of headphones, and I think you will be transported to another plane. This was about the 3rd piece I recorded after the tuning, so there are out of tune unisons, and that pesky treble section is not spot on, never the less, it's magical. Bravo Bill!

"Septmeber Song" "New York, New York", and "On A Clear Day" are just great. "On A Clear Day" was the first piece I recorded after re-tuning, so it has the least of the twangy unisons.

Mr. Stopper, it's not that I am out to change everyone's mind about EBVT III. I have put your tuning out there, as well as the RCT and Tunelab's take on it. I enjoyed your tuning, as well as the ET that was in my original ETD, and the tunings that I got from Tunelab and RCT. However, all them do not speak to me like this EBVT III does.

My intention in this thread, was to share with everyone, my newfound joy in EBVT III. Each of us have our own subjective ideas on what a beautiful sounding piano should be.

No matter how good/great something is, you cannot please everyone. Enjoy! GP


1. "You'll Never Walk Alone" played on the LX by Roger Williams, in EBVT III (transferred from the Pianocorder Library) http://www.box.net/shared/288rvn3qej

2. "On A Clear Day" played on the LX by Roger Williams, in EBVT III (transferred from the Pianocorder Library) http://www.box.net/shared/h50sbqivzh

3. Theme from "New York, New York", played ont he LX by Roger Williams, in EBVT III (transfered from the Pianocorder Library http://www.box.net/shared/57lxgrmymq

4. "September Song" played on the LX by Roger Williams, in EBVT III (transferred from the Pianocorder Library) http://www.box.net/shared/iqbytlal5g


** For everyone's info...Roger Williams recorded for the Pianocorder Company, back in the late 1970's early 80's. These selections were from an Album of songs he did for them back then. They have been transferred into the LX encoding.

Bernhard, please respect GP's desire not to reveal his identity in these discussions. Knowing who he is myself, I fully understand that. I might be another matter if he were a pianist which he is not, or a professional piano technician which he also is not. His name is publicly known. If his name were printed even one time on here, it could easily cause problems with his professional career. Google has its way of fouling up people's lives. The right to privacy is sacred. There are many other pianists and piano technicians on PWF who also do not reveal their names and they all have their reasons for not doing so. So, let's not put any pressure on anyone who wants to protect their life and career from needless, irrelevant and unnecessary publicity. Let's just regard GP as an amateur piano technician who enjoys tuning and listening to his own player piano.

I very much enjoyed the comparison of Patrick's rendition of the Bach side by side with Bernhard's offering. Patrick, there is not a problem with the way you did the stretch, I sometimes put that much into it too, it depends upon the piano. GP's piano has a low amount of inharmonicity and does not lend itself well to going "sky high" with the stretch. It works well on that small Yamaha, however and would definitely work well on a Steinway.

To his credit, Herr Stopper's unisons are the epitome of refinement. To some, in a preference for one rendition of the Bach over the other, that could be the overriding factor. Herr Stopper's piano also has more highly refined voicing which is definitely to his credit.

There is no doubt nor argument that Herr Stopper's style produces and effect which many people have said they find appealing as I have. I love the crystal-like clarity and I do find a certain kind of beauty in it. It does make the higher registers sparkle like a fine cut diamond. The purity of the unisons, fine quality piano with superbly even voicing contribute to that quality.

There could be no doubt nor argument that the EBVT III also produces an effect, that of restoring the contrasting key colors of the cycle of 5ths. It is designed to do that. Some Historical Temperament (HT) enthusiasts would likely say it doesn't go far enough in doing that. I am well aware than many fine piano technicians have for their entire careers, refined their technique and sensibility exclusively to ET and therefore, any departure from it sounds flawed, incorrect, unbalanced, irregular, improper, distracting, irritating or just plain out of tune. I may as well lay it all out. Any other negative comment imaginable could also be applied.

However, I am also aware that not all piano technicians share that view and certainly, most musicians, including pianists do not. Indeed, the general listening public does not. The general public cannot and does not perceive beats the way skilled piano technicians do. If they did, we would all have a lot more problems with our clientele than we do. We know that our finest efforts will always deteriorate but our customers must live with that deterioration until the next time they can have us tune the piano again. GP now has the luxury of doing that whenever he needs and wants to.

So, I return to my original opinion of the Stopper Bach recording, giving it as much praise as possible. The playing itself sounds unemotional and mechanical. It reminds me of one of those computer generated renditions of a score that you can use to get an idea of how a particular piece of music would sound. A computer plays it, not an artist. It is too fast. There are no subtleties, no changes in tempo or dynamics.

Now, some may argue that those kind of inflections would not be proper for Baroque era music but from what I know, they do. The later Classical period retreated from them to a large degree, only to bring them back in the Romantic period.

So, in spite of the lesser quality piano, less refined voicing and unisons (although the unisons are fairly good, especially in the higher registers), the difference in the two renditions is like night and day! Patrick's interpretation is highly moving and emotional. The effect of the temperament makes that possible. The pianist who played Herr Stopper's piano could have made those same inflections but the emotional quality would not have been the same.

I haven't heard GP's new recordings yet, I was just so blown away by what Patrick did, I played it over and over and compared it to Herr STopper's several times.

I will be back with more comments later and hopefully have time for a few more tuning tips and insights for GP.

Thanks so much to everyone for all of the comments and participation!

Patrick:

Those recordings are great. Thanks for doing this experiment. It gives us a completely new sound, combining EBVT with the pure 12ths.

Questions:

1. Does your photograph show the exact same mic setup that you used for the recordings?
2. Are all of the mics turned on? (I think I see four mics in the photo.)
3. Did you doing anything with delays, gain compensation, etc?

grandpianoman

Thanks for the explanation! Now I think I also understand some very fast parts on some rolls, that sound completely mechanical in my ears. I guess they cleaned it up so much that it does not sound human at all anymore.

GP, the You'll Never Walk Alone was stunning! The original score key was C Major but William's arrangement in G Major preserved the original character by keeping it in closely related key. Williams was a Steinway artist. Steinway had him perform at one of the conventions but I stood outside the room, not really wanting to hear it. I could hear the "tinkling" of Autumn Leaves (similar to what he does in September Song) through the door, however. That was as close as I wanted to get. At another convention, Steinway had a piano and string ensemble playing Mozart in C Major and I had to likewise clear the room. Too many beats for me!

I enjoyed these renditions very much. I heard just the right amount of key color and contrast in them. I can hardly imagine Williams objecting to the way your piano sounds. The low voiced harmony is especially rich.

Ok, while we're on the subject of Roger Williams, I did a quick Wiki look-up and learned (in part):

"He majored in piano at Drake University in Des Moines, but was expelled for playing "Smoke Gets in Your Eyes" in the practice room.[2] Weertz ... served in World War II. While still in the Navy, he earned a bachelor's degree from Idaho State College (now ISU) in 1950, and afterwards re-enrolled at Drake, earning his master's degree. He then moved to New York to study at the Juilliard, where he studied jazz piano under Lennie Tristano and Teddy Wilson.

One night Weertz was scheduled to play as an accompanist on Arthur Godfrey's Talent Scouts. When the singer failed to appear, Weertz went on as a piano soloist and won the night's contest. He was heard by David Kapp, founder of Kapp Records, who was so impressed that he signed the pianist, changing his name to 'Roger Williams' after the founder of Rhode Island...

In 1955 Williams recorded "Autumn Leaves", the only piano instrumental to reach #1 on Billboard's popular music chart.[1] While many other recordings have been made of this song, Williams' version is easily the best known and most played. It sold over two million copies, and was awarded a gold disc.[4]"

Now, "Smoke Gets in Your Eyes" is not even a little scandalous--- what kind of school was that, anyway? Happens, it's a favorite of mine. A Jerome Kern number from 1933, written for the Broadway musical, "Roberta."

I wonder if you have that one, GPman, and wouldn't get in trouble for posting it? I'd kind of like to hear Williams paying "Autumn Leaves," while we're in the file. Haven't heard it since I was a young rugrat.

Roger Williams sport was boxing; broke his nose a few times before he gave it up.

One more little story, if it's not too much:

"After a piano concert by the Polish genius Ignacy Jan Paderewski, young Roger waited for 45 minutes outside in the freezing cold to meet his idol. When the pianist finally appeared it was to rush to a waiting automobile. "I didn't even get near enough to touch him or get an autograph," says Williams. "It was then and there I resolved that if ever I became famous I would never disappoint anyone who wanted to talk to me." [5]

Williams was the first pianist to receive a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame."

GPman, I know what you mean about the emotion of EBVTIII. I tuned my Schimmel 174 to the EBVTIII last week. I have an arrangement of the hymn "Holy, Holy, Holy" with the largo from New World Symphony. It is achingly beautiful and did, in fact, move me to tears. By the way Bill, the opening chords, Db, G, Db, Bd, etc. are gorgeous in EBVTIII. The bass (and all) of my piano has never sounded richer.

Alan

There's been a little talk about stretch on in this thread but not much. The end result of a tuning will largely depend on how much stretch one puts on the temperament. Some of the comments I think are more related to the tuner's proficiency and stretch rather than the actual temperament. I changed the stretch on my Verituner to a sequence Ron Koval (RonTuner) gave me several years ago for a piano like mine. I applied it to EBVT III and the results are fabulous. I also used it with ET with better results than using one of the three in the built in Verituner. Not that the VT stretches aren't good, they are, but Ron gave me one specific for my pano. Maybe Ron would like to post one of his custom stretches.

Bill, thanks for your compliments. This whole experience has been so musically rewarding. The combination of the Wapin, Ari Isaac's hammers and bass strings, and now your EBVT III, has transformed my piano! Thank you!

Ralph, great to hear your story.

Jeff Cleff, Yes, I have Autumn Leaves, as it is on the same album as those 4 Williams pieces I posted. I will try and record that tonight, and post it...I have to first clean up those unisnons

Jeff, thanks for the story on Williams. He is, I think, one of the great all-time pianists of the pop music scene.

Alan T, what you are saying corresponds to what I have experienced.

Here is an excerpt from a posting I saw on another forum that I participate in, from a Piano Tech at a University here in the states. He is responding to the same posting I did there, of the 4 recordings of Roger Williams here on PW. It's self-explanatory:

"I applaud your zeal regarding tuning. Here's a nutshell version regarding the EBVT III tuning. We have a 1977 Baldwin SD-10 that I recently moved from the stage to a large multipurpose room where the students have their weekly studio and the upper level piano majors can practice on a concert instrument. I occasionally will change the temperament without advance notice and get their feedback. I tuned a EBVT III last Monday prior to studio. The piano did sound quite "alive" to me afterwards. I listened to different students play Bach, Schumann, and Scriabin. I asked if they were aware of a change in sound telling them I had only tuned it that morning. The students, having played on that piano on a regular basis and with an equal temperament, noted that it seemed the piano had "opened up". Just wanted to share that."

Thank you, Jeff Clef for your research! Today, whatever weird or ethnic name someone may have would be an asset. I love the music of Landon Pigg, for example. It is so unpretentious, non seeking of pop culture but yet it grabs it as what people really like to hear. He provided the one and only example I could find anywhere of octaves played singularly in the low tenor upon the piano (an old upright) blended with the sound of the guitar (tuned however they did it) that I have ever been able to find. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erywPdFfORE

Commercial interests did pick up on it and that is how I discovered it. I think I have heard other such examples since.

It is hard to imagine being expelled form a school of music for playing "Smoke gets in Your Eyes" in a practice room! But perhaps that can be compared to daring to even talk about an unequal temperament in a piano tuning forum (not just this one) and having participants suggest that I be kicked out for it. Owen Jorgensen faced the same thing in PTG. He was a lot more meek than I could ever be about it. He simply persisted in his endeavors and nothing came of the call to expel him from PTG for his research and beliefs. He went on to be the recipient of PTG's highest honor shortly before his death at an advanced age.

I am very encouraged by all of the positive responses. I expect the vile and negative comments. I already know what they would be and I know why they would happen. I respect all opinions and accept them but I do not tolerate condescension or ridicule as a way of promoting one idea of tuning style over another. It is clearly understood to me and should be to all that each kind of tuning style has its own merits.

Alan, if there is any way that you could post a recording of your work, we would all love to hear it! I understand that it may not be possible as it has never been possible with me because the purchase and implementation of recording devices is a task unto itself. But thank you very much for your comments. I am very interested in the emotion that can be restored to music from the piano by the way it is tuned.

"Opened up", very happy to hear that comment and that others have been utilizing the EBVT III!

Thank you all!

GP and Jake: I recorded with two pairs of microphones, just to make an A/B test. I ended up using the DPA 4011's, but actually added just some lower bass from the TLM 103's. Thus no need for delay etc. And, yes, the mics are in the spots used in the recordings.

Bill: Thanks - it's really a huge difference playing the piano... The temperament suggests dynamics and phrasing in a most interactive way

Here's another recording that I made today. I thought it would be nice to hear some music written for WT.

Bach Prelude in Eb major (WTC1) - EBVT III

I like this complex prelude very much. First it introduces the motive briefly. Then follows a hymn ('chorale'), and from there it develops into a fugue using the slow theme of the chorale and the motive from the introduction. Brilliant writing.

It modulates quite a bit, and the different colors are certainly there in EBVTIII!

I play it without sustain pedal, which leaves it very naked. That, and the fact that the mics are closer than in any ordinary concert situation really reveals a lot.

Here's a link to a download page for the sheet music, should anybody want to take a look at what's going on

Sheet music - Bach prelude Eb major (WTC1)

Jeff, here it is, "Autumn Leaves"...brings back memories!

Even though the treble was out a bit, I let the piano record the next 2 Roger Williams pieces, they were so good. Some of those bass chords and harmonies are to die for in EBVT III. Enjoy, GP


1. "Autumn Leaves" played by Roger Williams, on the LX, in EBVT III, from the Pianocorder Library. http://www.box.net/shared/lfv0zhzis6

2. "Misty" played by Roger Williams on the LX, in EBVT III, from the Pianocorder Library http://www.box.net/shared/f2gk9mdje0

3. Roger Williams on the LX in EBVT III (The chords and harmonies on this piece are particularly beautiful and rich sounding in EBVT III) http://www.box.net/shared/mcq1ogilj4


Patrick, that is really beautiful. Thanks!

Rontuner, thanks for your insights regarding my Tunelab overpull figures.

Grandpianoman,

i see that there are good reasons for you to stay anonymous here. I don´t see me as a combatant of Bill, i rather feel me as a brother in mind with him (including Alfredo Capurso or Serge Cordier and many others), we were all trying to go beyond the limits what former tuning theory told us about octaves and we all find ourselves from time to time in front of ridicule of some individuals (often serious scientists or musicians) who never want to accept that an octave could be tuned anything else than pure. Although it´s not the sound i´m after, i am glad that you found the way your piano is to be tuned to give you what it probably does.

All the best,

Bernhard Stopper

Hi all, I was out for some days, tuning Forte pianas, a Pleyel Pianino (kind of 2stringed wooden framing birdcage action) , a Viennes Schott piano.

After thinking about some Valotti or similar gelatti tunings, All the pianos have been tuned in my usual way of today (namely "stretched octaves" in Chas ratio)

As a result , inquiries for using them in recordings, and the pianas justness was appreciated, I proposed to tune in a more "contrasted way" but the offer was declined.

A second result that could be noted is that the Viennese piano was able to stand a 100 km moving and be played without a real tuning, the initial one seeming to grip to the piano very well, despite th pith changing.

A customer that was building bridges in his carrer told me that the resonance stability questions are understandeables, as there is an acoustic settling in every element that resonante to its prefered freqencies.

Hardly computeable, but the concept is accepteable.

I'll listen to the new records of the thread tonight. I will also provide you some records on the old instruments in ET.

Thanks Pat, I hear differently.

No prob, Jeff - to each his own

In listening to Patrick's excellent recordings, I noticed how clear the sound was. I should be getting something very close to that, even with different mics etc. So I went into my software and checked to see if I could improve on the sound. I changed a few of the settings, and it has def improved the sound.

Here are 2 examples of that.......same mics, and basically the same mic position. "There's A Small Hotel" is from a very rare 1936 Original Ampico Roll. It has been scanned and then encoded for the LX. This really is amazing, as it now sounds like a real person playing the piano. Thanks to the efforts of Wayne Stahnke and others, it's now possible to preserve these rolls for posterity, and in most cases, better than the original. One of the benefits of this new technology, is to have the same speed at the end as there is in the beginning. When one plays a piano roll, the speed increases as you get towards the end of the roll, due to the take-up spool. With this new technology, one can keep the same speed throughout.

1. "There's A Small Hotel" from "On Your Toes" by Richard Rogers, played on the LX by Adam Carroll, transcribed from a Rare Original Ampico Roll #215791-in EBVT III http://www.box.net/shared/m2luhnlb4v

The lyrics of these Fox Trots are are half the fun of playing a piano roll, for example:

Lyrics for "There's A Small Hotel"

There's a small hotel
With a wishing well
I wish that we were there together
There's a bridal suite
One room bright and neat
Complete for us to share together

Looking through the window
You can see that distant steeple
Not a sign of people -- who wants people?
When the steeple bell says,
"Good night, sleep well,"
We'll thank the small hotel together

And when the steeple bell says,
"Good night, sleep well,"
We'll thank the small hotel together



2. Original Ampico Roll-1.One Song 2. Sweet As A Song 3. In Old Chicago 4. You Appeal To Me played by "The Sherry Bros" aka Frank Milne Roll #216313 http://www.box.net/shared/oefde6cs21

Bill, I don't have any recording equipment. I would love to record my piano. I am so excited by how it sounds now. I can't wait to tune a customers piano in EBVT III. I use my Verituner to tune the Temperament then tune the rest of the piano aurally. I went back over the temperament aurally and it was extremely close, so I use the VT to save time. I use the mindless octave technique when I tune ET and it gives a very clear treble. Using it with EBVT III combines the clarity with new colors. The bass is very clear and with a growly edge similar to a Baldwin or Mason 7 footer. I really enjoy this temperament and could be easily persuaded to use it rather than ET as my standard tuning.

Alan

Thank you, Alan, that is very encouraging to hear! Thanks for reporting. Thanks for the latest recording, GP, there was a lot of clarity in that one. Would you happen to have Franz Liszt's Lieberstraume?

GP, the Autumn Leaves is amazing! The technique involved with carrying out the simple single not melody, as well as when it is played in chords while playing the fantastic accompaniment is super human! The piano sounds very clear and the harmony very correct.