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#1406564 - 03/29/10 07:09 PM Youtube Cover Removed for Copyright Infringement
BillM Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/12/08
Posts: 1520
Loc: Maryland
I got a notice today from Youtube that one of my piano/vocal covers was removed for Copyright Infringement. I have posted many covers of popular songs on YouTube over the last couple of years and never had this happen before.

Since many of us here on ABF post covers on YouTube I am curious if anyone else had this experience and if so, what, if anything, did you do about it?
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BillM (formerly b528nf7)
Roland KR-17M
Clavinova CLP-150
Piano Vocals of Old Guy Tunes

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#1406575 - 03/29/10 07:25 PM Re: Youtube Cover Removed for Copyright Infringement [Re: BillM]
CebuKid Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1176
Originally Posted By: b528nf7
I got a notice today from Youtube that one of my piano/vocal covers was removed for Copyright Infringement. I have posted many covers of popular songs on YouTube over the last couple of years and never had this happen before.

Since many of us here on ABF post covers on YouTube I am curious if anyone else had this experience and if so, what, if anything, did you do about it?


Among my YouTube Pianist friends, yes, I've heard complaints of this occurring. One lady from Spain that I know (very talented pianist and composer), had this problem with Sony records. She was playing on her own digital piano (it wasn't even an acoustic), and got a copyright infringement violation from YouTube on behalf of Sony records.

From what I've seen, if your recording isn't available in the "public domain", you're more likely to get a copyright infringement violation. Because of this, I went back to a couple of my daughter's videos and listed where the sheet music came from. Perhaps you'll want to list in your description (if you haven't already), the song-writer's name and the composer's name who wrote the arrangement on your piano accompaniment, etc...

I hope this helps, and sorry for what happened.
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YouTube Channel
Scott Joplin Repertoire


Music washes away from the soul
the dust of everyday life.
- Berthold Auerbach



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#1406601 - 03/29/10 07:48 PM Re: Youtube Cover Removed for Copyright Infringement [Re: CebuKid]
MarcoM Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 246
even if you say where it comes from you can still be taken down: the account of a really good guitarist that had several hundred original arrangements of well known songs has been taken down over a year ago and it hasn't come back yet (despite a lot of users campaigning in his favour).

Another user that has some excellent piano tutorials for original arrangements of songs had a couple of them recently taken down as well and said that apparently it takes only between 3-5 reported infringements for youtube to completely remove your account.

I think the only 'safe' music genres to play on youtube nowadays are classical and jazz, for everything else the music labels are definitely on the lookout for videos which use their songs in any way shape or form.

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#1406636 - 03/29/10 08:29 PM Re: Youtube Cover Removed for Copyright Infringement [Re: MarcoM]
Little_Blue_Engine Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/30/09
Posts: 1233
Loc: Ohio, US
I read in a discussion board on youtube about someone having a video of the garage band he was in while he was in college in the early 70's taken down for copyright infringement because they were playing covers. I believe in the origional artists getting their recognotion and royalties and I don't believe in downloading things for free that are easily available for sale just because you can get them for free, but there comes a point when I wonder whatever happened to imitation being the sincerest form of flattery. No one is going to mistake any of us for the "real thing" and the record companies aren't going to lose their fortunes because some amatuers want to share their accomplishments on youtube.
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Until then you may want to keep a safe distance.


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#1406645 - 03/29/10 08:42 PM Re: Youtube Cover Removed for Copyright Infringement [Re: BillM]
ChrisA Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 3841
Loc: Redondo Beach, California
It is perfectly legal to play a "cover" in a public performance BUT if you do you are required to pay a small fee to the songwriter's agency so that they can forward payment. to the song writer. It is the same on u-tube as if you were on stage except the u-tube is even more "public" than playing at a local bar (where you'd likey never get caught.)

Here are a couple good links on the subject.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performance_rights_organisation

http://www.ascap.com/licensing/licensingfaq.html

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#1406648 - 03/29/10 08:48 PM Re: Youtube Cover Removed for Copyright Infringement [Re: Little_Blue_Engine]
BillM Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/12/08
Posts: 1520
Loc: Maryland
Originally Posted By: Little_Blue_Engine
No one is going to mistake any of us for the "real thing" and the record companies aren't going to lose their fortunes because some amatuers want to share their accomplishments on youtube.


Agreed - the cover in question was my pitiful rendition of a song by the Turtles (Happy Together) that was released in 1967. The band broke up 40 years ago. I realize that Alley Music Corp (the aggrieved party) is still entitled to their intellectual property but it seems kind of pathetic to me.

By the way, a search of Happy Together Cover on YouTube yields 2,570 hits so apparently I'm not alone in my fondness for this tune. I deleted my video.
_________________________
BillM (formerly b528nf7)
Roland KR-17M
Clavinova CLP-150
Piano Vocals of Old Guy Tunes

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#1406652 - 03/29/10 08:56 PM Re: Youtube Cover Removed for Copyright Infringement [Re: BillM]
ladypayne Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 424
Loc: AK, USA
omg haven't had that happened to me yet since I just started youtube.. Maybe I should go back to photobucket lol.. Seems safer frown
_________________________
I am currently uploading all of my written piano sheets onto my blog to make things easier. I also have written out a few more sheets. All free check it out if you want smile Any questions, PM me

http://myuniquepianomusic.blogspot.com/

http://www.youtube.com/user/paws1528

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#1406667 - 03/29/10 09:23 PM Re: Youtube Cover Removed for Copyright Infringement [Re: ladypayne]
CMohr Offline

Silver Supporter until Dec 29 2012


Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 1029
Loc: Oregon
Hey, Ladypayne - stay with youtube. I only say this because every time I tried to watch your vids on photobucket, it crashed my computer. Don't know if anyone else had this problem, but it certainly bummed me out.
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#1406695 - 03/29/10 10:08 PM Re: Youtube Cover Removed for Copyright Infringement [Re: CMohr]
Monica K. Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 17786
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
I'm sorry to hear that, Bill. I'm guessing it's more of a problem with popular music. But I'm surprised that they would aggressively enforce a cover. I see lots of videos removed that are just pieces ripped from the CDs with a slide show attached, and I can understand why the music companies would want to be vigilant about those.
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#1406696 - 03/29/10 10:10 PM Re: Youtube Cover Removed for Copyright Infringement [Re: CMohr]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
This is a fascinating one, because if you perform live it is actually the venue's problem to be licensed for the intellectual property. By analogy, YouTube is the venue......
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#1406703 - 03/29/10 10:22 PM Re: Youtube Cover Removed for Copyright Infringement [Re: Elissa Milne]
jotur Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 5559
Loc: Santa Fe, NM
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
This is a fascinating one, because if you perform live it is actually the venue's problem to be licensed for the intellectual property. By analogy, YouTube is the venue......


That's my understanding, too. I suppose youtube hasn't ponied up to BMI and ASCAP because of the overwhelming number of videos they'd have to track and pay for. Unlike your local bar or pub with live music a couple of nights a week. Altho even that can be almost prohibitive. Or maybe they'd also have to pony up to other-than-US royalty entities, too.

I wonder why they haven't taken down the other several thousand videos once one of them was flagged? Surely they can use their own search button laugh

Cathy
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#1406705 - 03/29/10 10:24 PM Re: Youtube Cover Removed for Copyright Infringement [Re: jotur]
jotur Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 5559
Loc: Santa Fe, NM
I wonder if they'd have to pay mechanical rights (the right to reproduce as a hard copy) as well as performance rights?

Cathy
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#1406733 - 03/29/10 11:05 PM Re: Youtube Cover Removed for Copyright Infringement [Re: Elissa Milne]
Mr Super-Hunky Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 4242
Loc: Arizona.
I wonder if they leave the crappy performances alone and just go after the good ones. If you think about it, if they are worried that someone may want to listen to your version of a tune in lieu of the original, you must be pretty good.

There may be a warped compliment in there somewhere!

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#1406758 - 03/29/10 11:51 PM Re: Youtube Cover Removed for Copyright Infringement [Re: Mr Super-Hunky]
Plowboy Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/08
Posts: 2333
Loc: SoCal
Originally Posted By: mr_super-hunky
I wonder if they leave the crappy performances alone and just go after the good ones. If you think about it, if they are worried that someone may want to listen to your version of a tune in lieu of the original, you must be pretty good.

There may be a warped compliment in there somewhere!


I certainly enjoy Bill's covers, he's good. On the other hand, while Alan Gordon has passed away, I'm sure Gary Bonner enjoys getting royalties for Happy Together. I doubt he worries much about Bill, though.
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#1406765 - 03/30/10 12:02 AM Re: Youtube Cover Removed for Copyright Infringement [Re: Mr Super-Hunky]
MegumiNoda Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/31/09
Posts: 203
They seem pretty indiscriminate about what they go after. I made a (very bad) practice video using the Music Minus One (MMO) orchestra as my accompaniment. Because I was just learning the piece, I had to slow the orchestra part way down. That video was still flagged as some sort of infringement on Sony. I'm not even sure if MMO is a subsidiary of Sony.

I had thought that a 10 minute use of some music whose sole purpose was for accompaniment would fall under fair use (no financial gain; small excerpt for artistic expression), but apparently, it does not. Strangely, my infraction seems to be a bigger problem in Germany than elsewhere. According to Youtube, I don't have to remove the video yet, but people in Germany will be spared of my blasphemous attempt at Beethoven. Perhaps that is just as well.

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#1406771 - 03/30/10 12:15 AM Re: Youtube Cover Removed for Copyright Infringement [Re: Plowboy]
BenPiano Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/09
Posts: 1171
Loc: US
Bummer, Bill.

I saw an interesting article a while ago on that viral wedding dance video and why it never was pulled:

http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2009/07/w...ng-dance-video/

It's too bad more studios and copyright holders don't take advantage of this advertising technique.


Bill, it looks like it's time you started playing some Chris Brown. grin
_________________________
Learning to play since June 2009.
My piano diary on You Tube: http://www.youtube.com/user/afpaSTU1096
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#1406772 - 03/30/10 12:16 AM Re: Youtube Cover Removed for Copyright Infringement [Re: Plowboy]
7notemode Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/10/07
Posts: 105
Loc: Raleigh/Durham NC
I'm no lawyer, but I have an interest in this issue, and this is my perspective on it: Youtube/Google do automated searches for copyright violations. They cast a very wide net. If you posted the Turtles playing Happy Together, they would have a legitimate claim. You posted your performance. Alley Music Corp does not have a copyright on your performance. You automatically do. They could say that they are owed an ASCAP fee. On general principals, since it was probably an automated action anyway, I would file a request with Youtube to have the video reinstated. At least a live person would look at it then. I would say that you reserve all rights to your performance, which was done for non-commercial purposes. At least, that is what I would do, and what I have known others to do. It may not be worth the trouble for you -- just my $0.02 :-)
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www.youtube.com/7notemode

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#1406773 - 03/30/10 12:22 AM Re: Youtube Cover Removed for Copyright Infringement [Re: 7notemode]
BenPiano Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/09
Posts: 1171
Loc: US
Originally Posted By: 7notemode
I would say that you reserve all rights to your performance, which was done for non-commercial purposes.


Not a recorded performance. The copyright holder "owns" the music. Cover it live in a bar - no problem. Put it on You Tube - problem.

I really do feel for the position of copyright holders. One might think it petty to yank amateur performances on You Tube, but where to you draw the line? It's a tough spot to be in, and some recording companies are more vigilant than others.
_________________________
Learning to play since June 2009.
My piano diary on You Tube: http://www.youtube.com/user/afpaSTU1096
<- 10+ ABF recitals

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#1406774 - 03/30/10 12:24 AM Re: Youtube Cover Removed for Copyright Infringement [Re: 7notemode]
ladypayne Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 424
Loc: AK, USA
I don't really understand why youtube goes through the trouble of deleting amateur performances on music covers but they leave full length movies up. Granted, they are in like 10 or 12 parts, but there's definitely a number of featured full length films on youtube that go undetected. So I wonder if these people that put these movies use some round about way so that the vids don't get deleted besides saying I Don't own this vid etc..


Edited by ladypayne (03/30/10 12:25 AM)
_________________________
I am currently uploading all of my written piano sheets onto my blog to make things easier. I also have written out a few more sheets. All free check it out if you want smile Any questions, PM me

http://myuniquepianomusic.blogspot.com/

http://www.youtube.com/user/paws1528

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#1406796 - 03/30/10 01:05 AM Re: Youtube Cover Removed for Copyright Infringement [Re: BenPiano]
MarcoM Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 246
Originally Posted By: BenPiano
Cover it live in a bar - no problem.


actually even if you cover it live in a bar you still have to do the paperwork so royalties are paid (or at least you need to do this in some European countries, I haven't ever played in a cover band live in North America). It wouldn't surprise me if bar owners even here have to pay some sort of licensing fee for 'live music' and have to give the setlist to ASCAP/BMI/... for royalty distribution.

It ought to be possible to do the same on youtube, I am sure a lot of people would be totally fine with a microtransaction of $1/$2 to be able to post their cover of xyz, as of now there appear to be no legal way to share your performance of copyrighted material even if you were willing to pay to be able to do so.

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#1406877 - 03/30/10 05:19 AM Re: Youtube Cover Removed for Copyright Infringement [Re: MarcoM]
SpencerF Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 122
Youtube has been paying out money to major copyright holders for years to keep the website from shutting down. The problem is that some companies want more money than youtube can afford. Youtube only makes so much money off of a video. If youtube makes ten cents (highly exagerated, and im not sure exactly how it works) everytime someone watches a music video, but the company wants 20 cents for everytime someone watches that video, well they just take the video down.

Also, some companies just don't like the idea of not having control over their music. They want people to buy cds (they hate itunes as well). In fact if they wouldn't suffer severe losses in profit, they probably would prefer to not distribute the music at all, just have it played on the radio, tv, performances etc.

Kind of like movie scores. You cannot get the full sheet music to a movie. It is impossible. They don't want you to perform it. They just want you to listen to it in the movie and recognize it as part of the branding of the movie.

So when you post your cover of their music on youtube, and youtube makes almost no profit off of your video, but the company wants royalties, well you aren't going to pay the royalties are you?

In my opinion though, the record companies are greedy, evil, and have a very outdated business model. They don't want to change their ways and evolve with technology. They are fighting off the internet to keep control. I hope it won't work. Hopefully the young generation will eventually take their places, and eventually things will change, at least a little.

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#1406890 - 03/30/10 05:59 AM Re: Youtube Cover Removed for Copyright Infringement [Re: SpencerF]
LaRate Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 250
Loc: Germany
It certainly is a cost problem - and that's why I believe the whole removal mechanism is 99% automatic. Sony (and most certainly other companies) runs a scripted search from a list of stuff they own, generate infringement messages, youtube automatically processes them and generates the message to the user. If a live person is anywhere in this process, I think he/she will work like a machine ;-).

My suspicion is, they (i.e. their software) do not even care to differentiate between covers and mere rips of copyrighted material. I'd wager that if you named the video differently, nobody would complain (although this would be even more delicate from a copyright-perspective, since you would claim a cover as being your own composition). Of course, your video couldn't be found as easily by users as well wink.

Germany is a special case actually, since we have an own, very peculiar ASCAP-version - the GEMA: a reeeally bureaucratic organisation. So none of the deals Google makes with the ASCAP applies to Germany, they need to make specific agreements. (p.s.: while I do not mind too much for youtube, I really hate that I can't use Pandora in Germany - these music people could get so much of my money, if they'd let me explore new music I might like...)

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#1406896 - 03/30/10 07:01 AM Re: Youtube Cover Removed for Copyright Infringement [Re: LaRate]
Peyton Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 2555
Loc: Maine
I didn't realize they were actually going after covers. I had an audio pulled from a vid but it was the actual recording (Friend of the Devil) so I could begin to understand, but covers from us amateurs.... ? That was a nice job you did on that tune too Bill. I'm sorry it was pulled.
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#1406914 - 03/30/10 07:51 AM Re: Youtube Cover Removed for Copyright Infringement [Re: Peyton]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10385
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Quote:
I think the only 'safe' music genres to play on youtube nowadays are classical and jazz, for everything else the music labels are definitely on the lookout for videos which use their songs in any way shape or form.


Well, my son once got his knuckles rapped by youtube for posting his rendition of ..... a Mozart sonata movement. We got a notice that there was an alleged copyright infringement and they threatened to pull the video down. I responded that the piece was almost 250 years old and that any damn fool would know that it was in the public domain. Well, I didn't say it quite that way, but I do recall being somewhat curt. They backed off. I suspect it was a shotgun blast series of claims from some automated program designed to catch possible violations, but the program likely didn't care much about type I error.
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https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#1406917 - 03/30/10 07:57 AM Re: Youtube Cover Removed for Copyright Infringement [Re: jotur]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Originally Posted By: jotur
I wonder if they'd have to pay mechanical rights (the right to reproduce as a hard copy) as well as performance rights?

Cathy
Here in Australia shops which play recorded music get an APRA license, and they display a sticker in their front window to say they are licensed to broadcast music. You're right, the broadcast license is different to the live performance license, but it's just a matter of having the right sort of license.

And I would think that the question of tracking 'performances' would be super-easy in a web 'venue' - my goodness, my blog tells me where people have been directed from, including the words they typed into google that ended up leading to my blog: if wordpress is doing that for all the blogs that are wordpress related I'm sure YouTube has the technology to track quite a lot of content. On the other hand, they are reliant on those uploading the clips to catalogue the contents properly..... Hmmmm.....
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

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#1406920 - 03/30/10 07:58 AM Re: Youtube Cover Removed for Copyright Infringement [Re: Piano*Dad]
Elissa Milne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
Quote:
I think the only 'safe' music genres to play on youtube nowadays are classical and jazz, for everything else the music labels are definitely on the lookout for videos which use their songs in any way shape or form.


Well, my son once got his knuckles rapped by youtube for posting his rendition of ..... a Mozart sonata movement. We got a notice that there was an alleged copyright infringement and they threatened to pull the video down. I responded that the piece was almost 250 years old and that any damn fool would know that it was in the public domain. Well, I didn't say it quite that way, but I do recall being somewhat curt. They backed off. I suspect it was a shotgun blast series of claims from some automated program designed to catch possible violations, but the program likely didn't care much about type I error.


YouTube clearly isn't any damn fool!!!! (I love this story!)
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

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#1406927 - 03/30/10 08:10 AM Re: Youtube Cover Removed for Copyright Infringement [Re: Elissa Milne]
Rickster Offline


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8565
Loc: Georgia, USA
I read this thread with interest in that I have almost 50 music videos on YouTube. If I record a pop or R&R or blues or whatever kind of music I play, and upload it to YT, I always credit the original artist or song writer (as a general rule).

Of course, about 15 or so of my songs are original compositions that I wrote myself. I’ve never had a problem or received a notice from YT about any copyright infringement.

I guess my recordings are so bad, they don’t take notice! grin

Rick
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#1406930 - 03/30/10 08:18 AM Re: Youtube Cover Removed for Copyright Infringement [Re: Rickster]
Pete M. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/30/10
Posts: 125
Loc: California
For the seemingly random selection process, you also have to keep in mind that they'll take down anything reported as a copyright violation automatically, whether it's true or not (thanks DMCA). The fact is, there are actually a lot of people out there who report videos out of spite, just to get them taken down.
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#1406932 - 03/30/10 08:22 AM Re: Youtube Cover Removed for Copyright Infringement [Re: Pete M.]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10385
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Well, they didn't actually take down the Mozart video, despite passing along the claim that it was a copyright violation. There was a dispute process, and they didn't do anything immediately. Ultimately, they didn't do anything, period.
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Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#1406940 - 03/30/10 08:52 AM Re: Youtube Cover Removed for Copyright Infringement [Re: Piano*Dad]
Philpot321 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/21/10
Posts: 95
this is really interestimg, ive never heard of covers being removed from youtube for copyright violations... For instance, the youtube user iwillbot has dozens and dozens of covers to almost every modern pop song you can imagine, and they are all still up and VERY popular... its a good thing my covers are horrrrible otherwise i might be in trouble wink
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