Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 3 of 5 < 1 2 3 4 5 >
Topic Options
#1410167 - 04/03/10 05:31 PM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: theJourney]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Please, theJourney, don't talk about keyboards you haven't played yet yourself, it's a little bit too much looking to just specs.

I have played both keyboards, and I like the Kawai keyboard action much better. You can argue about this, but the long wooden keys are really making a difference in realism, and I don't care about the escapement action which is pretty much meaningless to me. And, although not a must-have, I prefer wood over the Rolands plastic.

The situation regarding sound is a little bit more open, but still I like the sound signature of the CA-63 better than the HP-307, although the effects and technical details are undoubtly better on HP-307. And I don't say I NEED a laptop for m CA-63, I can live very well with the sound of the digital piano, it sounds very convincing and is very playable. It's only that you COULD replace the sound in the future for both models, so you don't necessarily need the absolute perfect sound for the DP.

The other things like 3-track compared to 2-track (what a joke), real piano designer functionality (who needs that) and all the additional voices all are just peanuts compared to a realistic playable keyboard action.

And still, I think it's a matter of taste: For both the keyboard action and the sound signature. Your conclusion about the increased price of KAWAI if it would have the same functionality as Roland is pure speculation and nothing we can really discuss about.

BTW, I don't know where you get your street prices from, but the real street price of CA-63 is about 2.080, of Roland HP-307 about 2.650 which is a real difference of 570 Euro.
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

Top
(ad) Roland

Click Here

#1410234 - 04/03/10 07:37 PM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: mucci]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8393
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
kawaian, I expect the HP-307's Piano Designer functionality will appeal to the growing number of people that enjoy tweaking the tonal character of their piano's sound. This flexibility is perhaps something that could be improved in KAWAI's Virtual Technician in future.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

Top
#1410464 - 04/04/10 02:54 AM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: mucci]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: kawaian
Please, theJourney, don't talk about keyboards you haven't played yet yourself, it's a little bit too much looking to just specs.

I have played a CA63 keyboard twice now.
No one has a CA93 to play and I have not yet been able to play all the models side by side, but I have played the CA63.

Originally Posted By: kawaian

I have played both keyboards, and I like the Kawai keyboard action much better. You can argue about this, but the long wooden keys are really making a difference in realism, and I don't care about the escapement action which is pretty much meaningless to me. And, although not a must-have, I prefer wood over the Rolands plastic.

You do realize the irony of saying that a realistic feature of replicating a grand piano action (escapement) is meaningless while saying that trying to emulate with plastic resins an obsolete, anachronistic, outlawed, animal-endangering substance (ivory) covering a material that is subject to high manufacturing variances and is sensitive to environmental changes (wooden keys) in an instrument (digital piano) that is traditionally built using plastic parts is making a difference in realism, don't you?
Originally Posted By: kawaian

The situation regarding sound is a little bit more open, but still I like the sound signature of the CA-63 better than the HP-307,

Sound signature or tone is very much a matter of personal preference. However, the very short sustain, meager string resonance, static sampling and very low effective polyphony offered by the Kawai might be considered deficient on objective terms as well. Not to mention the small number of alternative sounds on offer to give your ear a break or have some fun in between practice.
Originally Posted By: kawaian

although the effects and technical details are undoubtly better on HP-307.

Here we are in agreement.
Originally Posted By: kawaian

And I don't say I NEED a laptop for m CA-63, I can live very well with the sound of the digital piano, it sounds very convincing and is very playable. It's only that you COULD replace the sound in the future for both models, so you don't necessarily need the absolute perfect sound for the DP.

Of course you COULD replace the sound in future for the Roland too ..... yet you mentioned it in the context of the Kawai sound versus that from Roland. 'nuff said.
Originally Posted By: kawaian

The other things like 3-track compared to 2-track (what a joke), real piano designer functionality (who needs that) and all the additional voices all are just peanuts compared to a realistic playable keyboard action.

Certainly you do realize that your rather narrow needs may not be the same as other consumers who have other or more needs?

Have you played the PHA-III keyboard from Roland to compare it to the RM3 from Kawai? Are you really saying that you think that the plastic keyboards from Roland (and the very, very many plastic keyboards sold on Kawai's best selling models) are unplayable?

Originally Posted By: kawaian

And still, I think it's a matter of taste: For both the keyboard action and the sound signature. Your conclusion about the increased price of KAWAI if it would have the same functionality as Roland is pure speculation and nothing we can really discuss about.

Although no store I have come across seems willing to actually stock and take risk on a CA93, it is certainly not speculation that to enjoy a Kawai dp with a competitive keyboard with escapement one must pay over 3000 euros (see prices paid thread) while still having much less sounds and technological capabilities compared to the Roland.
Originally Posted By: kawaian

BTW, I don't know where you get your street prices from, but the real street price of CA-63 is about 2.080, of Roland HP-307 about 2.650 which is a real difference of 570 Euro.

I have firm quotes for both instruments from bonafide dealers including delivery and in the case of the Roland a pair of headphones. I expect that there will be further downward pressure on prices for those that can wait another year before buying.


Edited by theJourney (04/04/10 02:59 AM)

Top
#1410517 - 04/04/10 06:07 AM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: theJourney]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8393
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
theJourney, I'm glad to hear that you've finally been able to play-test a CA63. May I ask if your dealer visit incurred an expensive train ticket or required driving a long distance?

Perhaps you would also like to share your thoughts about the new 'RM3 Grand' action and 'UPHI' sound technology - how do the instrument's touch and tone compare to the competing Roland HP-305, in your opinion?

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

Top
#1410537 - 04/04/10 07:21 AM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: Kawai James]
sucroid Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/24/10
Posts: 37
Roland should have put PHA III or virtual technician (or both :)) on HP-305. If I have to choose between HP-305 and CA-63, I think I'll take the latter.

Top
#1410539 - 04/04/10 07:37 AM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: sucroid]
sieg66 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/09/08
Posts: 138
Loc: paris
Well, I don't understand how someone can prefer pha 3 over kawai wooden keyboard... I tried hp307, and it's the same feeling as pha 2, and I still prefer awa pro 2 over it (and awa pro 1 is even more like a real piano, the problem is just that it's sluggish, or slow). I haven't tried rm3 yet, but if it's like awa pro 1 without beeing sluggish, it should be very nice.

I don't know which accoustic piano pha 3 is supposed to emulate, but the kawai wooden keyboards feel far more natural. But it surely depends wich AP we are talking about. For example steinway and old pleyel piano are soft and very controlable, whereas yamaha's have a harder touch.

Top
#1410553 - 04/04/10 08:26 AM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: sieg66]
sucroid Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/24/10
Posts: 37
Originally Posted By: sieg66
Well, I don't understand how someone can prefer pha 3 over kawai wooden keyboard... I tried hp307, and it's the same feeling as pha 2, and I still prefer awa pro 2 over it (and awa pro 1 is even more like a real piano, the problem is just that it's sluggish, or slow). I haven't tried rm3 yet, but if it's like awa pro 1 without beeing sluggish, it should be very nice.

I don't know which accoustic piano pha 3 is supposed to emulate, but the kawai wooden keyboards feel far more natural. But it surely depends wich AP we are talking about. For example steinway and old pleyel piano are soft and very controlable, whereas yamaha's have a harder touch.


I think there is general agreement that Kawai action feels better than PHA II/III. I have expressed elsewhere on this forum that the Roland keys felt fake to me in the sense that I have never played any AP that felt like a Roland. However, if one is looking for double escapement, then there aren't that many choices. Yamaha NW/GH3, PHA-III, Casio. (Does CA 93 have double escapement?) And in my opinion, in terms of combined features per $, Roland HP-307 is currently the one that seems best to me. When I was at a Roland+Kawai dealer 2 months ago, I told the salesman how I wished there were a DP that combines the best of Roland and that of Kawai. The AvantGrand seems to be the answer but it is way out of my budget.

I think next year is going to be interesting (maybe that's my wishful thinking.)

Top
#1410558 - 04/04/10 08:40 AM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: sucroid]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8393
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
polygon, which Casio product features an escapement/let-off simulation?
Also, are you sure about NW/GH3 too?

Hmmm...perhaps we are thinking about different things?
Are you perhaps referring to triple sensor vs. dual sensor?
By escapement/let-off I am referring to the notch/click sensation felt when playing keys very gently.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

Top
#1410574 - 04/04/10 09:22 AM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: Kawai James]
Andree Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 248
Loc: Sweden
When talking keyboard actions I have seen some who complain about the lack of triple sensors in Kawai's keyboards. For me it's unnecessary to have triple sensors when you have developed a perfect and natural action already. How many sensors do you think there are in an acoustic piano? Multi sensor technology is a perfect method to use for compensation to unreal movements in non-fundamental mechanics.

theJourney, I would like to tell you that changing the reverb setting will give you a very long and beautiful sustain. "Hall 1" is incredible and much more natural than corresponding setting in the Roland for example.

Top
#1410599 - 04/04/10 10:19 AM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: Andree]
CSA4EVER Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/18/10
Posts: 17
Loc: USA
Gentlemen, gentlemen Please!LOL The dealer that sold me my CA-93 was also a Kawai+Roland Dealer. So, I had the pleasure of also playing the Roland HP-307. Without "choosing sides" theJourney has made the best points in that the broader spectrum of people looking to buy a DP would probably tend to lean towards the 307 due to the fact that it does actually have more bells and whistles. The ability to tweak the tonal sound of each piano setting on the 307 is very nice as well. Like theJourney, I also don't agree that the 3 track recorder over the 2 track is mere "peanuts". The 307 almost came home with me due to this as I sometimes like to lay down 3 tracks instead of two. When it's all said and done though, I chose the Kawai because of the more accoustic like feel. Sounds like theJourney would choose the Roland. I respect his opinion. In his words......"'nuff said"

Top
#1410617 - 04/04/10 11:01 AM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: Kawai James]
sucroid Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/24/10
Posts: 37
Originally Posted By: KAWAI James
polygon, which Casio product features an escapement/let-off simulation?
Also, are you sure about NW/GH3 too?

Hmmm...perhaps we are thinking about different things?
Are you perhaps referring to triple sensor vs. dual sensor?
By escapement/let-off I am referring to the notch/click sensation felt when playing keys very gently.

Cheers,
James
x


Sorry for causing confusion. For me, that the third sensor allows quick repetition with keys half-depressed is what I'm think is an important feature. Certainly, having the third sensor without the actual notch/click (i.e. escapement feel) is not entirely realistic. However, having the escapement feel without that third sensor is just weird on keys that are supposed to mimic grand piano action.

I think both the HP-307 and CA-63 leave some room for improvement and it seems to me that Yamaha Roland, Kawai realize what kind of competition they are up against when each of them has excellence in different aspects of improving the DP.

Top
#1410634 - 04/04/10 11:40 AM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: Kawai James]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: KAWAI James
theJourney, I'm glad to hear that you've finally been able to play-test a CA63. May I ask if your dealer visit incurred an expensive train ticket or required driving a long distance?

Perhaps you would also like to share your thoughts about the new 'RM3 Grand' action and 'UPHI' sound technology - how do the instrument's touch and tone compare to the competing Roland HP-305, in your opinion?

Cheers,
James
x


It turned into a 3 hour return car trip by driving outside of rush hour with a short morning session, a nice lunch and then an afternoon session. The store only stocked Kawai digitals.

I played a CA63, a CN22, an ES6, a CL25 a CA18 and an MP8II all with my Sennheiser HD600s.

The salespeople didn't know anything about the CA63. They did have one of those glass boxes with an RM3 and another with a AWA PRO II so you could compare the two. The salesman warned me however, that the RM3 on display was only valid for the CA93 which he did not stock and did not consider good value as he steered me towards a CA111.

I thought that all the instruments were quite playable; I generally prefer and enjoy Kawai actions. There were two others in the store who had been looking at Roland who also preferred the Kawai. The touch of the CA63 was more to my liking as it is heavier than that on the CA18 but the CN22 was also quite playable (I play a Kawai RX-2 at home with the old action).

I thought that the action was much quieter than the Roland and that the Kawai felt more like playing on a real instrument. The Roland HP-307 feels somehow like the whole thing is giving way and resonating noisily as if it is made with cardboard boxes and duct tape whereas the Kawai was more solid. I also really enjoyed playing the MP8II and can understand why it would be popular. I wonder if we will be seeing a replacement from Kawai soon.

If I were to follow Kawaian's advice and buy a Kawai now to connect to a software piano, I would probably choose a discounted CA18 instead, although I don't know if it has the connectivity capabilities.

I spent the most time on the CA63. I was initially not impressed with the piano sound on CA63. The sustain was particularly short and lifeless. I also found the dynamics unnatural and much less controllable as on the Roland. The HP-305 has the super natural piano sound which I think is better executed than the UPHI technology (while having the older PHA-II keyboard). The longer I played on the CA63 the more I liked the fact that it didn't get that fat, overprocessed, cheesy sound that can sometimes come out of the Roland. It sounded more European than the Roland. I fooled around with the touch settings and tried to have it take my touch and was able to get better control of dynamics and articulation. I think that the CA63 is quite a nice instrument that would benefit from additional improvements in its sound engine and including the fully featured RM3 keyboard. I am still looking forward to the opportunity to play a Kawai CA93, a Roland HP307 and a Yamaha CLP 380 and AvantGrand N2 on the same visit so that I can update this thread:
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1363086/The

Top
#1410789 - 04/04/10 04:31 PM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: theJourney]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Thank you theJourney for sharing your impressions!

It could be almost my own impression of the instruments, but using other words.

Two comments:

Unfortunately taking CA18 as a software piano doesn't work because this very basic DP does not have MIDI connectivity.

Regarding the keyboard action of CA93: I guess you won't be very impressed by the CA93 keyboard action because while it has the escapement feature it does not have a 3-point sensor so that there is no improvement in repetition. So for me it's more like a "fake" escapement improvement over the CA63 which is in my view not worth the money. The one thing that might be worth the additional bucks is the wooden resonance speaker system which will improve the loudspeaker sound of the CA93. For those who are mainly using headphones this could also be neglectible.

It's a pity that you could not compare the KAWAIs directly with the Roland action and sound, I think this would have been very helpful.

It also helped me to compare the KAWAI keyboard action directly with several acoustic pianos (Yamaha, Schimmel, KAWAI, N3) which I played in the same piano store, which strengthened my impression of the CA-Action to be very realistic and near to many of the acoustic pianos.

_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

Top
#1411156 - 04/05/10 03:25 AM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: mucci]
TADutchman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 760
Loc: Apeldoorn, The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: kawaian
The one thing that might be worth the additional bucks is the wooden resonance speaker system which will improve the loudspeaker sound of the CA93.

The CA93 also features 4 top mid-range (+ 2 front tweeter) loudspeakers for a more acoustic surround-feeling and 20 additional samples, including a Honky Tonk, 3 New Age Piano's, 2 E.P.'s, Chamber Strings and Pizzicato...
_________________________
K A W A I ..... R O L A N D ......... E - M U
C A - 9 3 ......... A X - 7 ...... X B O A R D - 4 9

Top
#1411164 - 04/05/10 03:41 AM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: theJourney]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8393
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
theJourney,

Thank you for sharing your experiences of your visit to the KAWAI dealer - by all accounts, it sounds like you had quite a pleasant day.

Just to clarify one thing:

Originally Posted By: theJourney
They did have one of those glass boxes with an RM3 and another with a AWA PRO II so you could compare the two.


Did the 'RM3 Grand' action sample have the explanation board attached?

Originally Posted By: theJourney
The salesman warned me however, that the RM3 on display was only valid for the CA93...


This is incorrect. The 'RM3 Grand' sample consists of three keys. The left-white and centre-black key feature let-off simulation, while the right-white key does not. Thus the action sample is valid for both the CA93 and CA63 (with and without let-off, respectively). This point should be clear from the sticker attached to the perspex cover.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

Top
#1411172 - 04/05/10 03:55 AM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: Kawai James]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Nothing was clear about the RM3 action from this visit.
The salespeople clearly were not educated, trained, informed to do their job properly.

One gets the impression that retail stores such as this one only survive by "being there" and serving those customers who are as unprepared or less informed than they are.

In this case the store:
- did not stock other brands to provide a useful auditioning and shopping experience;
- was not familiar with the features of the instrument and could not advise me and in fact misled me;
- did not have training on the new instrument or the point of sale merchandising aids;
- was mentioning an inflated MSRP that was incongruous with the advertized MRSP of other channels;
- was asking a higher "discounted" price than the MRSP of channels with immediate delivery;
- did not stock the instruments and indicated that there could be as long as a several week wait;
- would charge extra for delivery and setup;

So, for me, the only added value they provided was actually having made one model of the new dps available for auditioning. However, I would be crazy to give them as much as 450 euros for this privilege since I still have to find a store with usable auditioning facilities and after auditioning one can choose to purchase online for immediate delivery at a competitive price.

Top
#1411206 - 04/05/10 05:43 AM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: theJourney]
TADutchman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 760
Loc: Apeldoorn, The Netherlands
Maybe I missed something, but which store did you go to? Was it in/near Amsterdam? I'm surprised that they still exist anyway, given that everything you are telling is true they cannot be real experts for any DP brand (so we're not talking about flaming, right?). Luckily, my personal experience with a Kawai store is quite different from yours...
_________________________
K A W A I ..... R O L A N D ......... E - M U
C A - 9 3 ......... A X - 7 ...... X B O A R D - 4 9

Top
#1411216 - 04/05/10 06:12 AM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: TADutchman]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
van Urk, Rotterdam
The only store I found in the Randstad stocking the Kawais.

BTW, it's none of my business, but you were not even able to audition the CA93 at your dealer because they did not have one and do not stock it. So, the question is: what in the world is the added value of the dealer you bought from?

After all, you now have to wait weeks and weeks to take delivery and are paying a relatively high price.

Instead, you could be enjoying your digital piano right now and with the 400 euros you saved you could have gone to a Michelin starred restaurant for a luxury meal to celebrate.

http://www.thomann.de/nl/kawai_ca_93_r_set.htm


Edited by theJourney (04/05/10 06:20 AM)

Top
#1411251 - 04/05/10 08:12 AM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: theJourney]
TADutchman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 760
Loc: Apeldoorn, The Netherlands
Any careful reader would know the difference between a good package deal and a bare delivery from abroad with mediocre components. I actually used this exact link to negotiate with Van Oldeniel on quality of service and price for quality components, so the hint is a litte late (and I don't like rosewood) wink
_________________________
K A W A I ..... R O L A N D ......... E - M U
C A - 9 3 ......... A X - 7 ...... X B O A R D - 4 9

Top
#1411260 - 04/05/10 08:32 AM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: TADutchman]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Good deal, hmmm. Are you sure you are Dutchman? wink

After all, piano benches are a low value item and are always delivered for free with pianos anyway.

A Sennheiser 595 is only worth about 100 euros more than the phones that come from thomann.

So, you are still short about 300 euros... You would have just have to have ordered a less expensive bottle of wine with that dinner....

Oh and the Satin Black has been available for immediate delivery these last weeks, too. You could be playing on it now instead of talking about it here.

Do you also have the right from van Oldeniel to return your CA93 for full a refund within 30 days if, after finally having the opportunity to actually play one, you decide you don't like it?

Top
#1411638 - 04/05/10 05:12 PM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: theJourney]
TADutchman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 760
Loc: Apeldoorn, The Netherlands
After having had a few glasses of wine, I find your reply with some miscalculations and apparantly not knowing about small % differences in general electronics prices between The Netherlands and Germany quite amusing. Let's all move to Germany for the best price & service, Kawai Europe is located there anyway grin Good night sleep
_________________________
K A W A I ..... R O L A N D ......... E - M U
C A - 9 3 ......... A X - 7 ...... X B O A R D - 4 9

Top
#1412010 - 04/06/10 06:12 AM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: sucroid]
pb71 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 13
Originally Posted By: polygon

I think there is general agreement that Kawai action feels better than PHA II/III.


I completely disagree.

If anyone is reading this forum with a view to buying a digital piano please do not take statements like this on face value. Play them yourself.

Top
#1412018 - 04/06/10 06:38 AM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: pb71]
sucroid Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/24/10
Posts: 37
Originally Posted By: pb71
Originally Posted By: polygon

I think there is general agreement that Kawai action feels better than PHA II/III.


I completely disagree.

If anyone is reading this forum with a view to buying a digital piano please do not take statements like this on face value. Play them yourself.


Are you disagreeing that a few Roland owners and some other Kawai owners on this forum have found the Kawai action to feel better or are you disagreeing based on your personal preference? So far I have seen more people favoring the Kawai action than the Roland action on this forum. From this I gathered that the Kawai action is liked more generally. That of course does not exclude the possibility that there exist individuals that hate the Kawai action and love the Roland action. But you are right in saying that one needs to play both before deciding what to buy. I don't think anyone will dispute that.

Top
#1412058 - 04/06/10 08:16 AM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: sucroid]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Well, I guess there is not such a thing as a "general agreement" on such subjective matters like keyboard action.

I would dare to say that the majority of piano players might prefer the KAWAI action, but again this might be completely different from player to player, based on their specific experience and instruments they played in the past. There are even players that prefer unweighted keyboard action, although quite rare. Some with no acoustic piano experience might also prefer a specific action that is only possible with digital pianos (e.g. not graded, whatever).

So yes, what is definitely general agreement is that you need to play a broad variety of different DP brands in order to build an opinion on your own preference and then buy what you like most and what is in your budget (which is not always the same).

I for myself like the KAWAI action a lot and prefer it definitely over Roland PHA III action.
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

Top
#1412076 - 04/06/10 09:08 AM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: sucroid]
pb71 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 13
Originally Posted By: polygon
Are you disagreeing that a few Roland owners and some other Kawai owners on this forum have found the Kawai action to feel better or are you disagreeing based on your personal preference?

Hi there,

I'm disagreeing based on my own personal preference, and the specific comparison between the pianos and a acoustic grand piano.

I have no idea whether it is true or not that the majority of people on this forum who have tried both pianos say they prefer the Kawai. Even so, my opinion is so extreme on this that it wouldn't matter if I was in a minority of 1%, I would still believe my own fingers / arms / feet / ears.

Originally Posted By: polygon
That of course does not exclude the possibility that there exist individuals that hate the Kawai action and love the Roland action.

Clearly I match that profile! I'm aware that I have the viewpoint of someone who plays classical piano on acoustic grand pianos and requires a digital that offers the best approximation of the acoustic touch and sound. Perhaps not everyone wants the same, and even if they do want the same and prefer the CA93 that's up to them.

I'm just trying to urge people (particularly novices) not to assume the Kawai's action is 'better' because of the received wisdom of a forum. As we all agree, they should try them both if they have the chance.

Top
#1412106 - 04/06/10 10:10 AM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: pb71]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Well, pb71, I think we all agree that keyboard action is mainly a personal taste issue. But your arguments are more like "I'm a classical piano player and therefore like the real acoustic grand piano action, and I'm very extreme in this opinion" and this is something I really have problems with. The rationale: It seems like you don't consider other people's opinions, and that's always not the best way to go...

Could you provide us some more details on why you prefer the Roland action, maybe that would help.
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

Top
#1412167 - 04/06/10 11:36 AM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: mucci]
pb71 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 13
Originally Posted By: kawaian
Well, pb71, I think we all agree that keyboard action is mainly a personal taste issue. But your arguments are more like "I'm a classical piano player and therefore like the real acoustic grand piano action, and I'm very extreme in this opinion" and this is something I really have problems with. The rationale: It seems like you don't consider other people's opinions, and that's always not the best way to go...

Where have I failed to consider other peoples' opinions? Perhaps you missed or misread the part where I said (bold highlight added for clarity):

Originally Posted By: pb71
I'm aware that I have the viewpoint of someone who plays classical piano on acoustic grand pianos and requires a digital that offers the best approximation of the acoustic touch and sound. Perhaps not everyone wants the same, and even if they do want the same and prefer the CA93 that's up to them.

I think that's fairly clear. Nothing I have written on this is imposing my own specific requirements on people, just expressing my own opinions. You (and probably many others) clearly take a different but equally-strong view to mine. That's fine. In contrast your opinion causes me absolutely no problems whatsoever.

Of course it all comes down to personal preference, and while that is obvious I have been careful to state it explicitly in any case. If I am strong in my own opinion it does not logically follow that I don't consider other people's opinions or requirements. I'm sure the CA93 is more suited to other peoples' purposes, and that's great. I'm genuinely pleased for them / you.

Originally Posted By: kawaian
Could you provide us some more details on why you prefer the Roland action, maybe that would help.

Help what? I posted a detailed comparison a few weeks back, a post to which you in fact replied. To refresh your memory here is a link, with the name of the link chosen as considerately as I can:
My comparison of the Roland and Kawai keyboard actions based solely on my individual requirements

Good luck with your Kawai and all the best with it.

Top
#1412703 - 04/07/10 02:59 AM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: pb71]
madshi Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/09
Posts: 62
@pb71, I think kawaian's problem with your posts is that they read a little bit like this:

> People prefering the Kawai action are obviously not
> looking for an action which is similar to a real
> acoustic grand piano action.

You didn't explicitly say that, but your posts sound like that. So the question is: Is that really your point of view? Because if it is, you are dismissing the opinion of other people who think that the Kawai action is nearer to a real acoustic grand compared to a Roland action.

I think most people are looking for an action which is near to an acoustic grand piano. You seem to think that you're extreme in that case, but I rather think that most people share your want. The point, however, is that people have different opinions about which action is nearer to an acoustic grand piano. Some people say Kawai, other people say Roland.

Top
#1412743 - 04/07/10 05:13 AM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: madshi]
pb71 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 13
Originally Posted By: madshi
@pb71, I think kawaian's problem with your posts is that they read a little bit like this:

> People prefering the Kawai action are obviously not
> looking for an action which is similar to a real
> acoustic grand piano action.

You didn't explicitly say that, but your posts sound like that. So the question is: Is that really your point of view? Because if it is, you are dismissing the opinion of other people who think that the Kawai action is nearer to a real acoustic grand compared to a Roland action.


Different people base their opinions on different things. My opinion based on the demonstrable differences I noticed between the action of the Kawai and a grand piano (repetition etc), with these differences being less evident on a Roland.

Presumably others have played them both and thought "the Kawai is better because of XYZ". I cannot speculate what "XYZ" is, but only (constantly) spell out the specifics of why I came to my own opinion in case it is of use to anyone else who wants the same.

I'm not intending to dismiss anyone's point of view, just explaining my own.

Originally Posted By: madshi
...
The point, however, is that people have different opinions about which action is nearer to an acoustic grand piano. Some people say Kawai, other people say Roland.


If some people say Kawai is nearer, then they have formed that opinion for other reasons than me, and that is fine. The Roland certainly isn't perfect.

I mitigated my views with my requirements not to "dismiss the opinions of others" rather to put them into context. This was primarily to assist potential buyers and warn them not to take statements on a forum at face value without trying pianos themselves.

Apologies if I've upset any Kawai owners, my intention was to contribute useful information to potential digital piano owners.

I'm quitting this thread now, as I'm sure you're all tired of reading what I'm increasingly tired of having to repeat. Enjoy whatever piano you have and all the best to you.

Top
#1412768 - 04/07/10 06:58 AM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: madshi]
hpeterh Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 824
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: madshi

I think most people are looking for an action which is near to an acoustic grand piano. You seem to think that you're extreme in that case, but I rather think that most people share your want. The point, however, is that people have different opinions about which action is nearer to an acoustic grand piano. Some people say Kawai, other people say Roland.


I would think most average people (like me ;-) dont have real experience with a real grandpiano and dont know exactly how it feels.

Just some rethoric questions: ;-)


From Theory an acoustic piano feels different when the damper is depressed.
Could it be true that Roland feels like a grand without having the damper depressed and Kawai feels like a grand where the damper is depressed ?
What is better and more natural? ;-)

I personally believe, because a digital has several disadvantages compared to an acoustic, it should at least be allowed to have the small advantage that it doesnt need a mechanical damper, and so it should always feel as light as an acoustic that has the damper depressed.
;-)

I have not much experience with Roland, because their action is noisy I avoided them.
But in comparison to Yamaha it should be noted, that the Kawai mechanism can reach the same repetition rate without 3rd Sensor, because the hammer can move independently from the key, proposed, that it is properly adjusted.
So far I found, the RM3 really allows for repetition without releasing the key fully. It does -so far I know- not allow repetition without intermediate damping. But who does really do that? I do not. Does classical literature request this playing technique? Had Beethoven's, Bach's or Schumann's pianos such a mechanism? I believe in most actual playing situations the difference is not audible. And if the release time is increased -eg. by pressing the pedal partially- the effect should be very much the same.

There is another point: Fast repetition, but with low volume.
That is another thing that should be possible. So far I know, Yamaha needs the 3rd sensor for this. With the kawai mechanism this /should/ be possible without 3rd sensor. Ok I would prefer to really try it rather tham making theorys about it, but the opportunities where I can really try and compare it are very rare.


So I think the practical applications for a repetition mechanism are rare on an acoustic and because a digital repeats faster by design, it would not necessarily need 3 sensors. However, I also cannot see, why it should need a repetition lever simulation like at the CA93.


Of course it would be ideal, if Kawai woul not measure the hammer speed using two sensors, but if they would measure the true hammer impact. This would give optimal repetition. However there are additional questions to solve: How would you play organ or violin or cembalo, using such a keyboard?


Peter






Edited by hpeterh (04/07/10 07:32 AM)
_________________________
1929 Galaxy Bl├╝thner Baby Grand
acer aspire m3300 AMD Phenom II X6


Top
Page 3 of 5 < 1 2 3 4 5 >

Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
Download & Print Sheet Music Instantly
sheet music search
sheet music search

sheet music search
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
167 registered (accordeur, A Guy, 36251, Akshay, 49 invisible), 1459 Guests and 26 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
74250 Members
42 Forums
153592 Topics
2251020 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Casio PX 850
by ryand90
11 minutes 49 seconds ago
Am I Too Old?
by HatemTarek22
18 minutes 52 seconds ago
New 52" upright with 10K budget?
by WCSdancer
27 minutes 15 seconds ago
give up on old acoustics and buy a digital?
by carojm36
Today at 06:41 PM
I think I have a problem
by JoelW
Today at 05:02 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission