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#1413143 - 04/07/10 05:33 PM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: hpeterh]
wower Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/13/10
Posts: 242
Loc: Calgary
Is the CA63/93's action based on the movements of the acoustic Millennium III Action? Does anyone know if Kawai was trying to mimic or copy the touch of the Millennium III Action when designing the RM3 Grand action? Seems logical the Millennium III Action was their target and that is an action I quite liked so far at the stores. Sadly CA63/93 are a bit thin on the ground here in Canada at the moment to try as a demo on the floor.
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#1414387 - 04/09/10 06:05 PM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: wower]
Technocube Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/09/10
Posts: 5
Complete newbie to the digital piano world. I am used to playing a grand and need a silent digital (ie headphoned) for evening practise. Not bothered about the sound since I do have an acoustic - it's all about the action. Which models of digital pianos use an actual hammer action using a gravity return hammer? I know the Kawai CA93/63 do, as do the Yamaha AvantGrand. Are there any other makes? Do Roland do one (does the HP307 use an actual gravity return hammer?). Thanks very much.

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#1414659 - 04/10/10 06:59 AM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: Technocube]
Andree Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 248
Loc: Sweden
Technocube, I would say that every action, available in premium digital pianos, uses gravity to return the hammer. The difference lies in the construction of these actions, here we can see that different manufacturers use different solutions. Mainly one can say that Roland and Yamaha share the same principle, a weight lifted below the key when pressing it down. KAWAI has chosen another technique, a hammer that is thrown away from the key. If you want a good action you should go for KAWAI, Yamaha and Roland have a lot to work on if you ask me.

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#1414848 - 04/10/10 03:44 PM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: Andree]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2327
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Sometimes such blind praise actually undermines an instrument in the eyes of intelligent observers. All three have great actions and you will not find any consensus beyond that. It's fine to have a preference but to dismiss the efforts of the other two makers is rather crass.

Steve
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1414876 - 04/10/10 05:06 PM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: EssBrace]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Well, EssBrace, let's be logical: I don't think that praise like that undermines an instrument in the eyes of intelligent observers. Otherwise they would not be intelligent, because why should an intelligent observer be influenced by a "blind praise", as you phrase it? If that would be the case they would no longer be intelligent...


Edited by kawaian (04/10/10 05:06 PM)
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<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1414910 - 04/10/10 06:16 PM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: mucci]
Andree Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 248
Loc: Sweden
EssBrace, if it's crass or not to give advice for a potential buyer, when he or she requests it, doesn't concern me. However I hope that I have helped Technocube in his decision, and it's not a secret that I recommend KAWAI before the other brands on the market. I had a Roland before I got the KAWAI and I have played on Yamaha's for a very long time, I would therefore say that my opinion is quite rooted.

kawaian, I agree with you, good comment

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#1414917 - 04/10/10 06:30 PM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: mucci]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2327
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
My point is that if the instrument appeals so strongly, to the exclusion of anything else, to someone so unable to see value or quality in anything else, then the instrument has less appeal to any intelligent, well informed buyer. I would rather buy a piano that has been intelligently critiqued, where its weaker areas are identified and acknowledged, than one that has been indiscriminately praised. More specifically Andree's recommendation of it, so absolute and unquestioning, undermines the instrument in my opinion.

I don't really want to make this about Andree or the Kawai. My point is a general one and it is that any emphatic and unqualified praise about any DP is unconvincing to an intelligent observer. Because all DPs have significant flaws and to fail to recognise that does the instrument no favours.

Steve
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1414925 - 04/10/10 06:53 PM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: EssBrace]
snazzyplayer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 983
Loc: Earth
That's why I was never tempted to have my user name include the name of a manufacturer.

It sort of says right up front, that the company totally owns me, whereas, by buying their product, I would only own a teensy tiny itsy bitsy piece of the company.

Kind of makes me wonder about any recommendations by such a person, who is so willingly owned by a manufacturer. wink

It's almost as bad as signatures that make religious statements.

I don't usually have any problem with over-zealous supporters...like a friend of mine used to say about digital pianos, "We all know what sound we want to hear coming out of our speakers."

It's a personal choice, but at least recognize that your own choice isn't the "only choice"...it's just "your choice."

Snazzy
_________________________
Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)

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#1414934 - 04/10/10 07:08 PM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: EssBrace]
Andree Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 248
Loc: Sweden
EssBrace, with all respect I have to disagree with you and I can't understand your way of thinking.

Before I say something more I would like to highlight an important aspect. When reading your critic it seems that you believe I have written something which is "right" in relation to other opinions. However I think you have missed the last sentence in the post you are criticizing. Read it again and focus on the last three words "If you want a good action you should go for KAWAI, Yamaha and Roland have a lot to work on if you ask me".

As I said before I have played other DP:s before I fell in love with the KAWAI. If you had read my other posts about KAWAI you would also have seen another part of this with a lot of critiques given too. What you have read in this thread is just the conclusion after handling also the negative parts of KAWAI, a conclusion with the following content: KAWAI (CA93/63) is the most affordable digital piano on the market with the best quality and keyboard action available IF YOU ASK ME.

If you not agree with me you are welcome to share your love of both Roland and Yamaha.


Edited by Andree (04/10/10 07:22 PM)

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#1415096 - 04/11/10 03:08 AM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: snazzyplayer]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Interesting, Snazzy, that you're making this comment, since you're known to be a Yamaha, err, fanboy might me not quite right, but at least a very strong supporter, only that you don't have it in your name. I see nothing wrong with that. My name only states what brand of DP I own (I don't have several of them), and of course I bought it for a reason. You should also know all my other posts since you are a regular reader of this forum, so you should know that I have detected and made public a lot of flaws of the CA63, so I hope you don't accuse me of being an uncritical fan of KAWAI...
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#1415110 - 04/11/10 04:48 AM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: mucci]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2327
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Well, you've hit the nail on the head there...you are a CRITICAL fan of the Kawai product, which in my opinion makes you more credible. I am personally in a position at the moment (not completely by choice - long story) where I own exclusively Roland gear. To pick up Snazzy's point, I had included a signature stating what I owned (ie, all Roland) and it made me appear to the casual observer less independent and some sort of Roland freak - which I'm not. So I now have no signature. I am very well aware of the flaws in the Roland product line.

Andree, I meant no offence I just get completely turned off by such devotion to a product when we all know the product is far from perfect. In the case of Kawai it would appear they released a piano with serious issues with cracking noises and have had to play catch-up by releasing some sort of OS update. Now whilst the Kawai key action has attracted lots of praise (rightly so no doubt), it was a very amateurish thing to do to release a product so flawed. I can't get my head round why they did not pick up on the problem and it makes you wonder what else is wrong with it. I've owned a Kawai MP9000 and am not biased against the company at all.

Steve
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1415119 - 04/11/10 05:09 AM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: mucci]
snazzyplayer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 983
Loc: Earth
Mr. Kawaian...I'm not a fanboy of Yamaha, so let's get that out of the way, right now....however, they do make the finest digital pianos at present, in my opinion, followed immediately, and sometimes neck and neck, by Roland.

I don't dislike Kawai...I even had a Kawai synth (a K-series module/rack) up until a few days ago (sold because of an upcoming move)...I play/have played all kinds of brands of pianos/synthesizers and I tend to use whatever manufacturer's product works best in a given situation, as well as what appeals to my ears and sense of touch.

Kawai make reasonably good digital pianos, and it's nice that you like the product so much, that you include it in your user name.

A company would have to give me a digital piano or compensate me in some other way before I would endorse/advertise the product by having it appear in every post I made on a public forum.

That's where we differ I suppose.

And, I do take a poster's recommendations about a product with a grain of salt when I see a company's name/and/or keyboard model number/name in their username...but that's just a personal thing with me.

Snazzy
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Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)

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#1415128 - 04/11/10 05:50 AM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: snazzyplayer]
TADutchman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 760
Loc: Apeldoorn, The Netherlands
I agree that Yamaha currently makes by far the most expensive (huge marketing overhead) and also some of the best Digital Piano's (take for instance the AvantGrand or CVP509). When taking a limited customer budget of a few thousand euro's / dollars into account, KAWAI and Roland are currently doing a much better job i.m.h.o. By the way, I have also owned Yamaha & Technics keyboard gear to my satisfaction.
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K A W A I ..... R O L A N D ......... E - M U
C A - 9 3 ......... A X - 7 ...... X B O A R D - 4 9

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#1415136 - 04/11/10 07:14 AM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: EssBrace]
Andree Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 248
Loc: Sweden
EssBrace, on the other hand we have a lot of people on this forum only criticizing some products without mentioning something positive. Perhaps it's then good to have some people who mention also the good things to compensate for these critics?

Regarding the crackling noise I also think it is quite strange they didn't fix this before the release. However I'm also very glad to say that they actually confessed their mistake and solved the problem. In my opinion this actually increases my thoughts about KAWAI, very good customer service.

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#1415158 - 04/11/10 09:11 AM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: Andree]
snazzyplayer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 983
Loc: Earth
Originally Posted By: Andree


However I'm also very glad to say that they actually confessed their mistake and solved the problem. In my opinion this actually increases my thoughts about KAWAI, very good customer service.


No doubt that Kawai has great customer service...and, all companies, even the "big three" like Yamaha, Roland, and Korg, have introduced products at one time or another, that had "issues" that were solved by either software, or hardware upgrades and fixes.

Many times, when these companies, attempt to keep costs down and prices competitive (and to make bigger profits, no doubt}, use either third party labor for assembly (as in another country), or use parts made from another supplier, quality control can have slip-ups at the beginning of production, or even after some time.

also consider that no company wants bad publicity, and with the advent of Piano World and other great Internet forums, and, the net itself, the buyer/user/prospective buyer is very well informed about a product's performance, any bugs or glitches, and even an instrument's durability and longevity.

Bravo to Kawai for their problem solving and service, although I suspect it was as much to avoid bad publicity, as it was to appease the irate or disappointed customers.

Par for the course.

Like wise with competition between these corporations...we the customer can only benefit as each digital piano manufacturer tries to better the other with sound, features, looks, and, of course, price.

Snazzy
_________________________
Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)

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#1415160 - 04/11/10 09:22 AM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: snazzyplayer]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Originally Posted By: snazzyplayer
even the "big three" like Yamaha, Roland, and Korg


Korg is not part of the big three, in terms of sales it's Yamaha, Roland and Kawai (at least I read that several times...). I think even Casio is ahead of Korg.


Edited by kawaian (04/11/10 09:25 AM)
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<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1415164 - 04/11/10 09:24 AM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: snazzyplayer]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Originally Posted By: snazzyplayer
Mr. Kawaian...I'm not a fanboy of Yamaha, so let's get that out of the way, right now....however, they do make the finest digital pianos at present, in my opinion, followed immediately, and sometimes neck and neck, by Roland.


That's just your personal opinion... You don't distinguish between different models, do you? What about value for money? Interesting...

"I'm not a fanboy of xyz, but they are the best..."


Edited by kawaian (04/11/10 09:26 AM)
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<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1415204 - 04/11/10 11:30 AM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: mucci]
snazzyplayer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 983
Loc: Earth
Originally Posted By: kawaian
Originally Posted By: snazzyplayer
even the "big three" like Yamaha, Roland, and Korg


Korg is not part of the big three, in terms of sales it's Yamaha, Roland and Kawai (at least I read that several times...). I think even Casio is ahead of Korg.


Probably my impression of the big three, is in regards to what I see being played by professionals, amatuers, and what is being used in music schools.

Most people have the impression that Casio built a keyboard, put it on sale, and then found out how it sounded.

More recently, Kawai built a digital piano, put it on sale, and then found out how it sounded.

Now, for even those who have blind devotion to a particular instrument/manufacture, the above comparison shouldn't be that difficult to understand.

The Yamaha Avant Grand N3 is regarded by many pros, amateurs, and even music teachers, as the best digital piano being produced today. The CP-1 is another winner.

Roland's V-Piano, and HP-307 are also considered exceptional instruments, and Korg's SV-1 continues to be praised highly.

The only mention I read about Kawai, is on this forum...most other keyboard related forums, rarely even acknowledge them, let alone review them.

Perhaps we can slip them in fourth place, and Casio in fifth, if it will make you Kawai fanboys happy. grin The Casio fans won't mind, as they are just happy to be included. wink

Snazzy
_________________________
Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)

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#1415222 - 04/11/10 11:58 AM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: snazzyplayer]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
I'm sorry but it's not your part to define such a list... Have you ever played one of the new CA models? I would not dare to provide a judgement without having played an instrument.

And would you please stop me calling a KAWAI fanboy. I think I made it clear I'm not. I'm just allergic against people that promote their own DP favorites without respecting others opinions. And this is something you really like to do, to satirize people that have another opinion. See your last paragraph in your last post, and countless other examples throughout this forum.

I'm sure you have a funny answer also to this post, but anyway...
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<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1415249 - 04/11/10 12:36 PM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: mucci]
snazzyplayer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 983
Loc: Earth
Originally Posted By: kawaian
I'm sorry but it's not your part to define such a list... Have you ever played one of the new CA models? I would not dare to provide a judgement without having played an instrument.

And would you please stop me calling a KAWAI fanboy. I think I made it clear I'm not. I'm just allergic against people that promote their own DP favorites without respecting others opinions.


I'm afraid it is my part to define such a list...you just don't just don't have to agree with it, and I really don't care if you do or not...I'd say it is highly likely that it is accurate, and it works for me and many others.

You rarely, if ever, see a Kawai digital piano on stage...or a Casio...most pros use Yamaha, Korg, and Roland.

I'll be glad to stop calling you a fanboy...I don't like the name much either, but you gotta admit, having Kawai as part of your user name sure makes you look like a fan...sort of like those people who wear the names of sports teams on their jackets and sweatshirts...some even have player's names and numbers...you would certainly not be far off in calling such a person a fan, or at least acknowledge they are studying hard to be one. wink

Snazzy
_________________________
Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)

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#1415257 - 04/11/10 12:51 PM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: snazzyplayer]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Originally Posted By: snazzyplayer

I'm afraid it is my part to define such a list...you just don't just don't have to agree with it, and I really don't care if you do or not...I'd say it is highly likely that it is accurate, and it works for me and many others.

You rarely, if ever, see a Kawai digital piano on stage...or a Casio...most pros use Yamaha, Korg, and Roland.


And the visibility of stage pianos (rather than also home DPs) makes them the big three?

There are many others rankings that have a completely other picture, with more rationale behind it than you (maybe you have more, but you didn't provide it to us).

Im not necessarily have the same opinion (what the heck is Classenti), but here's another ranking which at least for me seems more reasonable:

http://www.ukpianos.co.uk/digital-pianos-which-brand-should-i-buy.html

BTW Korg is on 7th rank... It has no real name in DPs, for sure in workstations (I owned the legendary Korg M1 22 years ago, and paid a fortune for it, but was very happy for many years!).

Anyway, these rankings are highly subjective, but many people agree that the "big three" are Yamaha, Roland and KAWAI.
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<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1415291 - 04/11/10 01:35 PM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: mucci]
snazzyplayer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 983
Loc: Earth
I had a Korg PS3200 analog synthesizer, which I just sold, that was ahead of it's time, and it was produced in the 1978, and I've also played the M1, Wavestation, and the later T-series as well as the Triton, etc....they make great professional equipment.

They make fine arranger keyboards as well. Pianos?

I'm not so fussy on the current crop of Korg pianos...recently they started using Fatar keyboards, in place of the Yamaha's used just after the latter bailed them out, and I don't like Fatar having experienced issues with them with the Kurzweil's we had in the studio.

The Kawai has certainly come along way from the old P-series and MR-series in the 90's, although they were fine instruments, the latter having wooden keys if I remember correctly...there was a store in Newfoundland Canada that carried them, and my next trip to the Canadian maritimes will include another visit to that province, and I'll get to spend some quality time on the new ones. There are very few stores that carry them.

I just had a quick go on one at the local store...some guy had brought one in to get fixed...it had wooden keys, and I believe it was a CA model...not sure how old, but it looked a newer one....sounded and felt pretty good.

I can see why you'd like them.

Snazzy
_________________________
Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)

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#1415377 - 04/11/10 05:14 PM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: snazzyplayer]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Well said, Snazzy!
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<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1415618 - 04/12/10 03:19 AM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: mucci]
Technocube Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/09/10
Posts: 5
Thanks for all your help in answer to my question. I still haven't made my final choice but will do in a couple of days after weighing up budget and features (action /sound). After trying out a few instruments from all 3 manufacturers at the weekend (CLP380 CA93 and HP307) my thoughts are that, apart from the AvantGrand N3 (outside my budget), none are close to the sound/feel of a real acoustic so it seems best to go for the cheapest acceptable option for night-time practise and put the money saved toward my 'detached' house (and some earplugs for the rest of the family :-)


Edited by Technocube (04/12/10 03:22 AM)

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#1415812 - 04/12/10 11:36 AM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: Technocube]
Andree Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 248
Loc: Sweden
Technocube, if you feel that none of these pianos are close to an acoustic keyboard action, then I would recommend you to look into some other aspects. A major problem that has often been discussed here is the keyboard noise, created by playing. I had a Roland FP7 before and this was one of the reasons to why I sold it. Today I have a KAWAI CA63 and, without saying it's the best piano on the market, I have to say that I can't notice any keyboard noise at all, nothing disturbing anyway. You can look at this thread, which describes the problem

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...330.html#UNREAD

I can also say that this problem might seem to be very overrated, but it's not. If you have a keyboard that creates this noise you will be very tired of it after a while. In my case it resulted in a sale

Good Luck!

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#1415924 - 04/12/10 03:46 PM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: Andree]
TADutchman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 760
Loc: Apeldoorn, The Netherlands
Technocube, as most sales guys seem unable to fully understand the technicalities of the KAWAI CA93, I doubt that the one you tested has been set-up properly (wall placement, equalizer settings, etc.).
_________________________
K A W A I ..... R O L A N D ......... E - M U
C A - 9 3 ......... A X - 7 ...... X B O A R D - 4 9

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#1435368 - 05/12/10 07:31 PM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: AndyT]
Pinipon Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/21/10
Posts: 68
Loc: Lisbon, Portugal
Originally Posted By: AndyT

(..) The key was originally making a click noise on the return of the key. (...)


I have the same problem in one of the keys and I have a "metal" click noise when I press the sustain pedal
I have my CA63 only since 1 week.

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#1435385 - 05/12/10 08:03 PM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: Pinipon]
Kawai James Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8385
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Pinpon, please contact the dealer from where the instrument was purchased, requesting that these issues be fixed.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1435398 - 05/12/10 08:35 PM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: Kawai James]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
My CA63 was also not perfect at the beginning, but a KAWAI technician got it fixed quickly. That was in February, everything perfect since then.
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1435667 - 05/13/10 09:59 AM Re: Inside my Kawai CA63 [Re: hpeterh]
computerpro3 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/12/04
Posts: 367
Loc: Connecticut/Cincinnati
FWIW, I'm a conservatory trained classical pianist and I just purchased a Kawai CA51 as an apartment practice instrument for times I can't get to the Steinways at school (couldn't afford the CA63). I think even the AWA Pro II action in the CA51 is much more realistic feeling than any of the Rolands that I tried. I wish it had escapement, but the real wooden keys and the sense of mass that it has allow me to control the repetition perfectly as it has a more consistent rebound feel and speed than lighter plastic keys.

The Roland action is very good and very playable; don't get me wrong. It's just not very realistic feeling in my opinion.


Edited by computerpro3 (05/13/10 10:00 AM)

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Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Fazioli "factory tour" video.
by R_B
11 minutes 18 seconds ago
Piano Science
by venice1
39 minutes 33 seconds ago
MP7 vs MP11: only 6 differences?
by Marko in Boston
Today at 09:08 PM
the conclusion on weighted keys and developing technique
by B.Petrovic
Today at 09:02 PM
song i wrote about a coffee shop
by jedplays
Today at 08:50 PM
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