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#1381043 - 02/23/10 11:08 AM Re: Pop Piano Pro - Hot Tips and Mini Lessons [Re: ten left thumbs]
blues flat 7 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 86
Loc: PA
Thank You Ten Left Thumbs and Pete. The work you are doing in this thread is sounding very nice Ten Left Thumbs !!!
The tips you are giving are fantastic too Pete.
Working on Baby Boom from Take The Lead Book One and hope to record it over the weekend.

Dale
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Adding stuff to a Piano Tips forum little by little.
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#1382516 - 02/25/10 08:30 AM Re: Pop Piano Pro - Hot Tips and Mini Lessons [Re: blues flat 7]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3335
Loc: Scotland
Thanks for the compliment Dale - I look forward to hearing these numbers! smile
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#1387667 - 03/03/10 10:38 PM Re: Pop Piano Pro - Hot Tips and Mini Lessons [Re: ten left thumbs]
Pete the bean Offline
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Registered: 12/06/04
Posts: 450
Loc: Canada
ten left thumbs: Here are some suggestions for improv on the Red Sky Romp: http://www.box.net/shared/8sti8na1ap

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#1390486 - 03/07/10 02:19 PM Re: Pop Piano Pro - Hot Tips and Mini Lessons [Re: Pete the bean]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3335
Loc: Scotland
Thanks Pete, I am back from my trip and will take a look at this over the next few days.
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#1392764 - 03/10/10 10:07 AM Re: Pop Piano Pro - Hot Tips and Mini Lessons [Re: Pete the bean]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3335
Loc: Scotland
Staying with Five stars, I thought I would do a copy of one of your solos. Here's what you played:

Originally Posted By: Pete the bean

I am answering back with a pentatonic solo. http://www.box.net/shared/jofpnb6ver
I am adding some hammer ons, and waterfalls, coming down the pentatonic scale using a short motifs, to the harmony exercise.


And this is my copy:
http://www.box.net/shared/msiyi66d7k

I couldn't entirely hear the LH part at the end, so I just made something up.

It made me realise how, when I improvise, I can try to pack too much in, too fast and too frantic. I can go into panic mode. This is a good one for slowing me down.

I was also thinking I should do this in a few other keys. Not much point in just being able to play in C. smile
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#1393313 - 03/10/10 11:45 PM Re: Pop Piano Pro - Hot Tips and Mini Lessons [Re: ten left thumbs]
Pete the bean Offline
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Registered: 12/06/04
Posts: 450
Loc: Canada
ten left thumbs: Nice solo. Relaxed and controlled.

Putting the scale in other keys is a good idea. Take a few at a time or you may find yourself in overwhelm mode.

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#1394526 - 03/12/10 05:08 PM Re: Pop Piano Pro - Hot Tips and Mini Lessons [Re: Pete the bean]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3335
Loc: Scotland
A few at a time? lol That might be a bit over-ambitious. This is in G:

http://www.box.net/shared/d1psezud2y

I then did a little test - can I still play in C? Yep, I just about managed C. I've also done some improvising - just not managed it with the red dot lately.
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#1394781 - 03/13/10 04:18 AM Re: Pop Piano Pro - Hot Tips and Mini Lessons [Re: ten left thumbs]
Pete the bean Offline
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Registered: 12/06/04
Posts: 450
Loc: Canada
ten left thumbs:You keep getting better with every post. Keep this up for a much longer and I will start asking you for tips! Here is another idea: http://www.box.net/shared/9eryd8g52d
This is playing the RH using G pentatonic and keeping the LH in the key of C, as arranged. This gives a more dreamy sound because now there is a Maj 7 involved.

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#1394957 - 03/13/10 12:10 PM Re: Pop Piano Pro - Hot Tips and Mini Lessons [Re: Pete the bean]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3335
Loc: Scotland
Now that is interesting. Two things change when I use G pent, rather than C pent.

1. I'm no longer allowed C. This is fine because C sounds fairly boring in C major. Safe, yes, but boring.

2. Now I get to play a B, which was an avoid note before. So over chord I, that's a major 7th, nice. Over vii, it's a 9th, also juicy. It's in chord V, so no problems there. Over chord ii it makes a 6th, nice. If I put it over chord IV, it's going to give me a 4th. Er - um - ouch. *Can* sound OK if is resolves. Do you avoid the B over IV?

I'll study what you played more carefully.
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#1395618 - 03/14/10 03:29 PM Re: Pop Piano Pro - Hot Tips and Mini Lessons [Re: ten left thumbs]
Pete the bean Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/04
Posts: 450
Loc: Canada
ten left thumbs: If you are playing the note B over the F chord and park, it would likely be a little on the spicy side.

http://www.box.net/shared/4avb2skps5
In this example I am using B against an F major chord in a G arpeggio. The first time beginning on B and going up B-E-A (quartal) and the second time just the major chord with an add 9 GABD. You could analyze this as Lydian.
A good exercise using G pentatonic is to try make use of the extensions so over C major start the phrase on B or D. On G major -E or A. Am try B or D. F major try G B or D or E.
The flavor of the improv is quite different using the G pentatonic. Not quite so sweet as C pentatonic.


Edited by Pete the bean (03/14/10 05:46 PM)

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#1400102 - 03/20/10 04:23 PM Re: Pop Piano Pro - Hot Tips and Mini Lessons [Re: Pete the bean]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3335
Loc: Scotland
Jings, Pete, this sounds lovely. I've downloaded the track and will need to play it out before I understand it.

I remember we talked about quartals before, but I've not internalised them.

I'm not getting much chance to get to the piano these days, but I'll try this out when I can.
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#1402225 - 03/23/10 06:01 PM Re: Pop Piano Pro - Hot Tips and Mini Lessons [Re: Pete the bean]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3335
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: Pete the bean


http://www.box.net/shared/4avb2skps5
In this example I am using B against an F major chord in a G arpeggio. The first time beginning on B and going up B-E-A (quartal) and the second time just the major chord with an add 9 GABD. You could analyze this as Lydian.
A good exercise using G pentatonic is to try make use of the extensions so over C major start the phrase on B or D. On G major -E or A. Am try B or D. F major try G B or D or E.
The flavor of the improv is quite different using the G pentatonic. Not quite so sweet as C pentatonic.


Now, I'll be honest. When I first read this, I understood very little of it. Tonight I made a copy of your Lydian solo:

http://www.box.net/shared/080t7m91bc

It took me an awful long time to work out that quartal thing. I know you told me - but more on that later.

So then I went back and re-read about starting phrases on which notes, and basically you're saying whichever chord it is, go for the next note up or down, in G pent. So then I tried that in a little improvising and hey presto:

http://www.box.net/shared/j9vtbiuv48

Now, I have to say I'm quite pleased with that. 3hearts
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#1402444 - 03/24/10 01:43 AM Re: Pop Piano Pro - Hot Tips and Mini Lessons [Re: ten left thumbs]
Pete the bean Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/04
Posts: 450
Loc: Canada
ten left thumbs: I am so glad that you are pleased because you should be.
It is a great solo. I hear you in full control, listening to what you are playing and moving very fluidly from one phrase to the next. You have gone far beyond what I was expecting from anyone on this little ditty and I am so glad you did.

I could have posted the notes of my little G pentatonic example, however I think it is far more valuable to try to listen and figure things out that way, which you did. It can be very difficult, but it forces you to really listen think and assimilate. I hope you find the solos on the CD a valuable learning tool.

Thinking up or down from the root to the next note in the G pentatonic is not exactly how I was perceiving things but I checked out your logic and holy smoke - you are right- It is what I was trying to suggest. That is cool!

I went back to your first post of the song just to get a real perspective on how far you have come in the last few weeks. You've got wheels!

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#1402884 - 03/24/10 04:29 PM Re: Pop Piano Pro - Hot Tips and Mini Lessons [Re: Pete the bean]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3335
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: Pete the bean


I could have posted the notes of my little G pentatonic example, however I think it is far more valuable to try to listen and figure things out that way, which you did. It can be very difficult, but it forces you to really listen think and assimilate. I hope you find the solos on the CD a valuable learning tool.



Yes, what is helpful is hearing an effect, and not knowing what causes it - then sitting and working it out. And then being able to play it. I couldn't even begin to do this without Transcribe. But with the software I can break it down, and listen as slow as I like.

Now that I know what notes I am going for, I have a question.

Generally when I play I like to be aware of where I am within the scale, so if I play C in C, then I think 'doh', and if I play D then I think 're' etc. A while ago we started playing G pent over basic chord changes in C. So then I wasn't sure if I play a G, should I be thinking 'sol' or 'doh'? And I set this question aside - but now I'm ready for the answer!

Also, the word 'Lydian' has been mentioned... Wait, I'll hold off on this question.

I'm still in C, right? So G is sol?
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#1403111 - 03/24/10 10:22 PM Re: Pop Piano Pro - Hot Tips and Mini Lessons [Re: ten left thumbs]
Pete the bean Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/04
Posts: 450
Loc: Canada
ten left thumbs: I am trying to get you to improvise and overcome any thoughts that this should only be left to paid professionals. So think in the simplest terms.

So to your question about G pentatonic over C - when I am messing around I am thinking G pentatonic in the RH. So that makes G doh to my brain but it is definitely acting as Sol to my ears. There is also muscle memory involved so to my hands it is just G pentatonic as well.

How and what you are thinking greatly influences your solos. The best teacher I ever had could always tell me what he was thinking at any point in the tune. Using the same thoughts changed my playing for the better in short order. Bert Ligon's book- Connecting chords with linear harmony -is a very important book in teaching you how to think.


The word Lydian refers to the major scale beginning on the fourth degree or Fa. You could think that it is a C major beginning on the note F. However it may be simpler in less familiar keys to think "major scale with a raised fourth degree." So we are deriving the G triad over the F chord from F lydian FGABCDEF. (Yes B Not Bb).


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#1403392 - 03/25/10 10:04 AM Re: Pop Piano Pro - Hot Tips and Mini Lessons [Re: Pete the bean]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3335
Loc: Scotland
I was playing in F lydian? In which case G is re? And the progression that I thought was I-vi-IV-V was actually V-iii-I-II?
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#1403816 - 03/25/10 08:29 PM Re: Pop Piano Pro - Hot Tips and Mini Lessons [Re: ten left thumbs]
Pete the bean Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/04
Posts: 450
Loc: Canada
ten left thumbs: In the big picture the harmony is I-vi-IV-V and the song is in C major.

When you analyze one measure things change. The bar gets isolated from context and analyzed on it's own. Take the measure with the F chord. When this measure is isolated, F is considered to be Doh. The melody is no longer analyzed as being a C scale. It is seen as an F major scale with a raised 4th degree-Lydian.

As you have seen in your improv examples with C pentatonic and G pentatonic over the same C major changes, how you think about the notes changes the flavor of sound. (Both C pentatonic and G pentatonic are really just different ways of dividing up a C major scale with a couple of notes left out).

Same thing goes for how you perceive the chord changes. If you think of changing modes each time the chord changes, as taught in many play along improv courses, you will likely play with shorter phrases and a more disconnected melody. Instead, thinking one key centre over the set of changes, will likely result in longer phrases and a smoother line. In most cases, keeping it simple and thinking the big picture works best for me.

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#1404397 - 03/26/10 03:53 PM Re: Pop Piano Pro - Hot Tips and Mini Lessons [Re: Pete the bean]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3335
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: Pete the bean
ten left thumbs: In the big picture the harmony is I-vi-IV-V and the song is in C major.


Gotcha.

Quote:
When you analyze one measure things change. The bar gets isolated from context and analyzed on it's own. Take the measure with the F chord. When this measure is isolated, F is considered to be Doh. The melody is no longer analyzed as being a C scale. It is seen as an F major scale with a raised 4th degree-Lydian.


Now, you see, my brain just doesn't have room for all that. I'm in a key, that's the key I'm in. If I modulate, then fine. But I just can't be doing with thinking about different modes with every bar. It feels awful like the lightbulb jokes (one to hold the lightbulb, 20 to turn the room around). Why re-orient myself to F if I then have to worry about a B natural? Why not just stay in C?

Quote:
As you have seen in your improv examples with C pentatonic and G pentatonic over the same C major changes, how you think about the notes changes the flavor of sound. (Both C pentatonic and G pentatonic are really just different ways of dividing up a C major scale with a couple of notes left out).


They are indeed.

Quote:
Same thing goes for how you perceive the chord changes. If you think of changing modes each time the chord changes, as taught in many play along improv courses, you will likely play with shorter phrases and a more disconnected melody. Instead, thinking one key centre over the set of changes, will likely result in longer phrases and a smoother line. In most cases, keeping it simple and thinking the big picture works best for me.


OK, well I'm with you. And if there's a musical argument in such thinking, then all the better. smile
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#1404942 - 03/27/10 01:24 PM Re: Pop Piano Pro - Hot Tips and Mini Lessons [Re: ten left thumbs]
Pete the bean Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/04
Posts: 450
Loc: Canada
Here is an example of a time when I would use modal thinking. (Thinking a new key center for each chord change.) http://www.box.net/shared/d6knola1pi

In this example all the chords are dominant. The easiest way to get through this is to think Mixolydian - a major scale with the 7th degree flatted. Every chord requires a shift of key center (Modulation).


It would seem awkward to think C7- I need an F scale beginning on the 5th degree, F7- a Bb on beginning on the 5th degree and G7 - a C scale on the 5th degree.

In the big picture I would be thinking blues in C. I could improvise the RH using the C blues scale and not modulate the RH line for any of the chords.

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#1405445 - 03/28/10 11:33 AM Re: Pop Piano Pro - Hot Tips and Mini Lessons [Re: Pete the bean]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3335
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: Pete the bean

In the big picture I would be thinking blues in C. I could improvise the RH using the C blues scale and not modulate the RH line for any of the chords.


You could - as it is written, it does modulate, and they are all dominants/mixolydian, so that is fine.

Now, when I played this I thought - wow! I know this sound. I've heard it before. But I was absolutely sure I hadn't played it before. And I've played a lot of blues - but not this. It was driving my up the wall, trying to work out where I'd heard this sound. Plus, I kept wanting to put the lick on beat one.

Then I went away and tried not to think about it. Before I knew it, there was Miles Davies right in my head, playing Freddie Freeloader. Now, I've not analysed Freddie, so tell me, is it the same sound?

So I'm analysing this as chord vi and then v over whichever dominant chord it is. Is that how you see it?
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#1406008 - 03/29/10 04:01 AM Re: Pop Piano Pro - Hot Tips and Mini Lessons [Re: ten left thumbs]
Pete the bean Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/04
Posts: 450
Loc: Canada
ten left thumbs: Yup. This is the same sound as Freddie Freeloader.

What I am thinking is: Nice Lick. 6-5 (LA -Sol) suspension. Grab a 1st inversion shape with 6 in the top voice. Move down a whole step. Remember to b7.
I could think wow nice chord- C6- Root- 3 -13 moving down to b7-9-5 but that would slow me down and give me a headache.

Practice the lick in a bunch of keys so you memorize it. You could also grab a C major in 1st inversion and march it up and down the C mixolydian scale - flat the 7th degree any time it shows up.

I wrote you a little ditty to get the sound into your head. I tried to keep every harmony in 1st inversion. I am playing roots and Octaves in the LH. Swing it.

Chart: http://www.box.net/shared/20bppbjt53
Audio: http://www.box.net/shared/y5vtq30e3h

You could also work 2nd inversion the same way and while you are at it root position as well. This stuff is very handy in blues and Gospel style.
There is great value in playing scale tone triads in major and mixolydian.

If you can handle them, you should practice scale tone 7th chords in major 12 keys say the name of the chord as you play it. It is the best way to get to understanding harmony.

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#1406194 - 03/29/10 11:53 AM Re: Pop Piano Pro - Hot Tips and Mini Lessons [Re: Pete the bean]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3335
Loc: Scotland
I'll take a look at this Pete, when I can. I hope I'm not keeping you from the day job. wink
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www.justfingers.co.uk
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#1407571 - 03/31/10 03:44 AM Re: Pop Piano Pro - Hot Tips and Mini Lessons [Re: ten left thumbs]
Pete the bean Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/04
Posts: 450
Loc: Canada
ten left thumbs: Don't worry about the day job. This is all a part of it. How lucky is that?
Here is an easier sample of using 1st and 2nd inversion scale tone triads to harmonize a melody. I have applied the concept to the 5 finger blues found in Take the Lead level 1. Once again, the triads are derived from the mixolydian mode.

http://www.box.net/shared/eq4lh8ov10

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#1409849 - 04/03/10 03:48 AM Re: Pop Piano Pro - Hot Tips and Mini Lessons [Re: Pete the bean]
Pete the bean Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/04
Posts: 450
Loc: Canada
Final Post: I want to thank all those who have contributed to the thread. I think we are done. So I am rolling the music for the final credits: Box Full Of Goodbye.
http://www.box.net/shared/56kdtlo1n0

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#1409938 - 04/03/10 09:51 AM Re: Pop Piano Pro - Hot Tips and Mini Lessons [Re: Pete the bean]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3335
Loc: Scotland
Too sad. I'm not letting you get away with that. This is a repeat, but it will do for the occasion:

http://www.box.net/shared/9ybz0jx51c
_________________________
I am a competent teacher.


www.justfingers.co.uk
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#2098498 - 06/08/13 07:53 AM Re: Pop Piano Pro - Hot Tips and Mini Lessons [Re: blues flat 7]
R_B Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/03/09
Posts: 496
I know this is now an old thread, but I started at the very beginning and all the original lessons appear to have either been deleted or have expired.
Are they still available somewhere else ?
i.e. do the links need to be updated ?

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#2099035 - 06/08/13 11:24 PM Re: Pop Piano Pro - Hot Tips and Mini Lessons [Re: blues flat 7]
earlofmar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/21/13
Posts: 1367
Loc: Australia
The original website is still up and running: there are four lessons there. Don't know if this answers your question.

http://www.poppianopro.com/
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#2246158 - 03/13/14 08:21 PM Re: Pop Piano Pro - Hot Tips and Mini Lessons [Re: blues flat 7]
EM Deeka Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/08/13
Posts: 144
Is this project closed now ? I see a blank website.

http://www.poppianopro.com/

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#2246162 - 03/13/14 08:25 PM Re: Pop Piano Pro - Hot Tips and Mini Lessons [Re: blues flat 7]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7425
Loc: New York City
I also see a blank site.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2246357 - 03/14/14 06:13 AM Re: Pop Piano Pro - Hot Tips and Mini Lessons [Re: EM Deeka]
dmd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1775
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: EM Deeka
Is this project closed now ? I see a blank website.

http://www.poppianopro.com/


Yes, it is.

I emailed him about it and he said he was currently too busy to maintain it so he was going to have to close it for the time being.
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My current system: Kawai ES7 + Focal CMS40 Powered Monitors, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 audio interface, Mackie ProFX8 Mixer, Ravenscroft275, True Keys American Grand, Ivory II American Concert D, Steinway Basic, Galaxy Vintage D, True Pianos, Pianoteq, Alicia's Keys

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