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Topic Options
#1399458 - 03/19/10 06:14 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
Kawai James Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8854
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Job interviews in Japan, perhaps? wink

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1399562 - 03/19/10 08:39 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Kawai James]
Volusiano Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/10
Posts: 770
Originally Posted By: KAWAI James
Job interviews in Japan, perhaps? wink

Cheers,
James
x

Either that or spending some time at a court house??? wink
(Hope you can take a joke, Dewster!)

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#1399570 - 03/19/10 08:52 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Volusiano]
sullivang Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2185
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Or perhaps he's spending a week putting an embedded PC into his P-120. :P

Greg.

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#1399650 - 03/19/10 10:44 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: sullivang]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4335
Loc: Northern NJ
Ha! Nothing nearly as interesting as all that, just tending to some family business.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1405018 - 03/27/10 03:31 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
Richard Stark Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/09/06
Posts: 278
Loc: Hälsingland, Sweden
Someone at the marketing department has been here...


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#1405097 - 03/27/10 06:57 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Richard Stark]
Volusiano Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/10
Posts: 770
I don't remember if Dewster's analyzed any of the Roland models that has the supernatural sound. If yes, whether it's passed with flying colors like it should according to the YouTube infomercial above?

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#1405103 - 03/27/10 07:11 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Volusiano]
sucroid Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/24/10
Posts: 37
It passed with flying colours if I remember correctly.

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#1405114 - 03/27/10 07:29 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: sucroid]
jmmec Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/02/10
Posts: 86
Loc: New Mexico (yes, USA!)
You can download dewster's "dpbsd_reviews.txt" file, but below I've pasted his opinion of the 3 Roland DP's (v-piano, HP-307, and the RD-700GX with SN expansion card):

------------------
- Roland V-Piano -
------------------
FILE & SETUP:
- dp_bsd_v1.3_roland_v-piano_vintage1.mp3
- S/PDIF to CD recorder.
- Factory settings except gain +12dB & reverb off.
- Recorded by "EssBrace/Steve".
PROS:
- Beautiful long note decay.
- No looping (modeled).
- No stretching (modeled).
- Sympathetic resonance, though very subtle.
- Responds to partial pedaling.
- Good dynamic range (~36dB, vel=1:127).
- Nice "loom of strings" pedal down sample, pedal up sample more of a knock.
CONS:
- Key-up sample not audible.
OTHER:
- Quickly repeated notes have somewhat random velocities (modeled reality?).
- Date reviewed: 2010-02-09



-----------------
- Roland HP-307 -
-----------------
FILE & SETUP:
- dp_bsd_v1.4_Roland_HP-307.mp3
- roland_hp-307_key-off_mono.mp3
- roland_hp-307_resonance_0.mp3
- roland_hp-307_resonance_5.mp3
- roland_hp-307_resonance_10.mp3
- roland_hp-307_resonance_more.mp3
- roland_hp-307_resonance_more10.mp3
- Asus Xonar DX line-in, Adobe Audition.
- Recorded by "zaba19".
PROS:
- Beautiful long natural-sounding note decay (decay times on the order of Pianoteq).
- Large dynamic range (~47dB, vel=1:127).
- No audible looping.
- Visually, the notes look similar to conventional length attack samples seamlessly blended with something like long loop samples. Not clear what the process is.
- No visible or audible stretching, notes look random in the wave and phase views.
- No visible or audible velocity switching.
- Very smoothly blended timbre variation with velocity.
- Responds to partial pedaling, centerpoint of this effect is with pedal mostly down.
- Key up sounds like realistic string damping rather than a knock.
- Sympathetic resonance, sounds pretty good even when turned up.
- "Loom of strings" pedal down sample.
CONS:
- Can't detect key up, pedal up/down, or sympathetic resonance sounds in DPBSD MP3 file for some reason.
OTHER:
- Probably good enough to realistically record solo.
- MP3 levels: peak @ -13.5dB, noise floor @ -90dB.
- Rather large quantization noise in MP3.
- Date reviewed: 2010-02-17; review updated: 2010-03-01.


---------------------------------------------
- Roland RD-700GX with K-RD700GX1 expansion -
---------------------------------------------
FILE & SETUP:
- dp_bsd_v1.4_Roland_RD-700GX_K-RD700GX1_SuperNATURAL-Grand_Piano_no_sympres.mp3
- Recorded by "sandord".
PROS:
- Beautiful long natural-sounding note decay (decay times on the order of Pianoteq).
- Large dynamic range (~47dB, vel=1:127).
- No audible looping.
- Visually, the notes look similar to conventional length attack samples seamlessly blended with something like long loop samples. Not clear what the process is.
- No visible or audible stretching, notes look random in the wave and phase views.
- No visible or audible velocity switching.
- Very smoothly blended timbre variation with velocity.
- Responds to partial pedaling, centerpoint of this effect is with pedal mostly down.
- Pedal up sounds like realistic string damping rather than a knock.
- Sympathetic resonance (in-line effect?).
CONS:
- Can't detect key up or pedal down sounds in DPBSD MP3 file for some reason.
OTHER:
- Probably good enough to realistically record solo.
- MP3 levels: peak @ -3dB, noise floor @ -81dB.
- Some gated digital bleed-thru at the noise floor that comes and goes (PC?).
- Date reviewed: 2010-03-01.
_________________________
Roland HP-307
Roland Quad-Capture

https://vimeo.com/58278342

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#1405529 - 03/28/10 01:30 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: jmmec]
jcabraham Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/24/09
Posts: 102
Loc: Boston
Who's the babe?

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#1405617 - 03/28/10 03:22 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: jcabraham]
Glenn NK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 457
Loc: Victoria BC
Dewster:

Haven't read all the posts to see if you're accepting more mp3s, but this is another version of Pianoteq using the latest piano.

http://www.box.net/shared/slm031ovs5

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#1406971 - 03/30/10 10:05 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Glenn NK]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4335
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Glenn NK
Dewster:

Haven't read all the posts to see if you're accepting more mp3s, but this is another version of Pianoteq using the latest piano.

http://www.box.net/shared/slm031ovs5


Thanks! I updated the review and put the MP3 at the share point.

I downloaded the v.3.6.0 demo and played with the velocity curve, but couldn't get rid of the partial damping during the pedal down silent replay test.

-------------------------------------------------
- Pianoteq v3.6.0, K1 solo recording, no reverb -
-------------------------------------------------
FILE & SETUP:
- dpbsd_v1.6_Pianoteq_3.6.0_K1_SR_X-2I1_Imp3.mp3
- Recorded by "Glenn NK".
PROS:
- Passes the pedal down sympathetic resonance test.
- Passes the key down sympathetic resonance test.
- Passes the pedal down silent replay test (though with some damping).
- Passes the brief pedal partial damping test.
- Passes the partial pedaling test.
- Beautiful long note decay.
- No looping.
- No stretching.
- No layer switching (here a good thing).
- Nice sympathetic resonance.
- Key up sound is a "clunk".
- Pedal up & down sounds nicely done "loom of strings".
- No pedal up/down sounds during partial pedaling test.
- Large dynamic range (54dB, vel=1:127).
CONS:
- No key-up sound if note has decayed to noise floor?
OTHER:
- MP3 levels: peak @ -3dB, noise floor @ -90dB, mosquito noise @ floor, needs dithering.
- Excellent stand-alone mode, MIDI input file and direct *.wav file out features are fantastic!
- Date reviewed: 2010-02-03, updated 2010-03-01 & 2010-03-30.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1406982 - 03/30/10 10:23 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Richard Stark]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4335
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Richard Stark
Someone at the marketing department has been here...

Roland has done a couple of videos like this, boldly highlighting the lame compression techniques of the bad old days.

Over at the Roland Clan forums people seem to like the RD-700GX SN expansion. Though with only 64MB to work with on an SRX card, I wonder if there is enough richness and variability to keep them happy long-term. It must take a lot of processing to cram multiple pianos into that small of a space.

And I know they have a fair amount of NRE tied up in it, but and $300 USD for 64MB is just outrageous.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1409949 - 04/03/10 10:23 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4335
Loc: Northern NJ
Stretch Groups in Clavinova Specs?

So I was over on the Clavinova site this morning looking up specs for another thread and stumbled upon what Yamaha terms "No. of Sampling Banks" - which for the CLP330 is given the value of 30.

CLP330 Link

I'd previously reviewed the CLP330 and discovered 30 stretch groups, so it seems:

"No. of Sampling Banks" (Yamaha) = "Stretch groups" (DPBSD).

I'm not sure I would have understood their term "No. of Sampling Banks" without the DPBSD data though.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1409953 - 04/03/10 10:31 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
NikkiPiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 172
Loc: Hertfordshire, UK
Interesting. CLP-370 spec. gives 50. CLP-380 leaves this blank?

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#1409958 - 04/03/10 10:38 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: NikkiPiano]
bkmz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 142
Loc: Belarus
Some say this is a mistake.
I emailed Yamaha about CLP370 banks, they haven't even understood what I'm asking about..

Quote:
Dear Mr. Il'ya,

Thank You for the interest in Yamaha Products.

If by sample banks you mean preset songs, then it is 50.

50 preset songs are including in all CLP-300 series.
_________________________
ex-Yamaha CLP 330

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#1409963 - 04/03/10 10:53 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: bkmz]
NikkiPiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 172
Loc: Hertfordshire, UK
Originally Posted By: bkmz
Some say this is a mistake.
I emailed Yamaha about CLP370 banks, they haven't even understood what I'm asking about..

Quote:
Dear Mr. Il'ya,

Thank You for the interest in Yamaha Products.

If by sample banks you mean preset songs, then it is 50.

50 preset songs are including in all CLP-300 series.


Ook! Looks like you got passed the monkey.

Check "Sample Banks Across Keyboard":
http://www.musiciansbuy.com/Yamaha-CP300-Digital-Piano-wspeakers-and-Free-CP300KIT.html


Edited by NikkiPiano (04/03/10 11:06 AM)

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#1409999 - 04/03/10 11:39 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: NikkiPiano]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4335
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: NikkiPiano
Interesting. CLP-370 spec. gives 50. CLP-380 leaves this blank?

I think the rows are misaligned on the CLP380 spec page - I see a figure of 50 there.

Funny (in a sad way) how they explain that they sample every key at at least 10 velocities, but then retain only (50/88)*(5/10)=0.2841 of the results of this effort in their top-of-the-line model.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1410070 - 04/03/10 01:46 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: NikkiPiano]
bkmz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 142
Loc: Belarus
Originally Posted By: NikkiPiano


I was saying about CLP300 series, not CP300.
_________________________
ex-Yamaha CLP 330

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#1410073 - 04/03/10 01:49 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
Melodialworks Music Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 1309
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: dewster

I think the rows are misaligned on the CLP380 spec page


It's a a table, and they didn't make the left column wide enough. Who uses tables for webpages anymore? (Very old school . . . )
_________________________
Melodialworks Music
Yamaha C3X
Yamaha CP300 + Omnisphere
Yamaha NU1 + Production Grand

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#1410076 - 04/03/10 01:51 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: bkmz]
NikkiPiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 172
Loc: Hertfordshire, UK
Originally Posted By: bkmz
Originally Posted By: NikkiPiano


I was saying about CLP300 series, not CP300.


I know. I used that page as an example of how the term "sample bank" is used and to make the meaning more unambiguous. "Sample preset songs across the keyboard" simply wouldn't work. :-)

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#1412815 - 04/07/10 09:55 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: NikkiPiano]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4335
Loc: Northern NJ
- SPECIAL BEGGING POST -

We interrupt this thread to bring you two special requests.

1. I would be most grateful for DPBSD MP3 samples of the following instruments:

- Yamaha P-85
- Yamaha NP-30
- Korg SP-250
- Korg LP-350

If you want to help the DPBSD project by contributing these samples but feel technically challenged by the procedure, the readme file at the Share Point has instructions, and you can also PM me and I'll walk you through any problems you might experience.

2. I would also like to hear from everyone regarding which DPs in particular they are personally interested in seeing run the DPBSD gauntlet.

TIA!
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1412916 - 04/07/10 01:21 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
kiedysktos. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 425
Loc: Europe, Poland
I'd like see some Clavia's piano testing; new Electro 3/ Stage EX / Nord Piano samples should all be identical.
And maybe some older models, like Nord Stage Classic / Electro 2.

Also, how does Roland Fantom sounds compared to other boards like 700GX?

From Yamaha - MO8.


Edited by kiedysktos. (04/07/10 01:23 PM)
_________________________
Roland FP-4

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#1413177 - 04/07/10 06:00 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: kiedysktos.]
Kawai James Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8854
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
I have an Electro 2 here, but unfortunately no Line-in connector on my laptop by which to record it.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

Top
#1414368 - 04/09/10 05:32 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Kawai James]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4335
Loc: Northern NJ
Galaxy II K4 1929 German Baby Grand (Blüthner 150) Review

Thanks to jazzist for three DPBSD MP3 files of the latest Galaxy II pianos utilizing the Kontakt 4 player.

The first one to be reviewed is the "1929 German Baby Grand" sample set, which is actually a Blüthner 150. This is an unlooped, unstretched (fully sampled) instrument with at least 11 velocity layers that I can detect. The pedal down sympathetic resonance sound nice, but I can't hear any key down sympathetic resonance. It also has a lot of sustain pedal issues, failing most of the tests associated with it, even partial pedaling. The note decays are long and realistic, and the incidental noises like key-up and pedal up/down are well done.

Pictures of the analysis and the MP3 file are at the Share Point.

------------------------------------------------------
- Galaxy II K4 1929 German Baby Grand (Blüthner 150) -
------------------------------------------------------
FILE & SETUP:
- dpbsd_v1.6_Galaxy_II_K4_1929_German_Baby_Grand_Blüthner_150.mp3
- Recorded by "jazzist".
PROS:
- Passes the pedal down sympathetic resonance test.
- Sympathetic resonance sounds realistic.
- Pedal up/down sounds are nicely done "loom of strings".
- Key up sound/effect is a realistic "linkage/knock" sound.
- Nice long decays on the order of Pianoteq.
- No visible or audible looping, notes appear and sound 100% sampled.
- Only two notes appear to be stretched.
- An unblended but high-count multi-velocity layer sample set (I detect at least 11 layers).
- Visible & audible layer switch @ vel=12,28,42,56,80,88,96,112,120,126.
- Large dynamic range (~40dB, vel=1:127).
CONS:
- Fails the key down sympathetic resonance test.
- Fails the pedal down silent replay test @ vel=1 & pedal up.
- Fails the quick pedal partial damping test @ first pedal up.
- Fails the partial pedaling test.
- Strangely, partially pedaling a decayed note makes it play again.
- Pedal down sound triggers @ 75% pedal, pedal up @ 25% pedal, even when partial pedaling.
OTHER:
- MP3 levels: peak @ -1dB, noise floor @ -90dB.
- Date reviewed: 2010-04-09


Edited by dewster (05/18/10 09:43 AM)
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1414648 - 04/10/10 05:40 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
jazzist Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 12
Hi,

even though the Galaxy II Samples are played in Kontakt 4 it is NOT the Galaxy II K4 Version!!! It is still the "old" Galaxy II. I will upload the II.4 Version as soon as it will be delivered to me.
Even though SSR is on its volume was set at 0, this explains the missing string resonance, new samples are on the way, sorry for that.

Regards
Jazzist


Edited by jazzist (04/10/10 05:47 AM)

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#1414694 - 04/10/10 09:45 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: jazzist]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4335
Loc: Northern NJ
I'm normally better about running these things by the person who submits the MP3, it's the fault of my laziness that I didn't do it in this situation - sorry everyone and particularly to you jazzist. We'll get this straight.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1414850 - 04/10/10 03:49 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
Volusiano Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/10
Posts: 770
Originally Posted By: dewster
I'm normally better about running these things by the person who submits the MP3, it's the fault of my laziness that I didn't do it in this situation - sorry everyone and particularly to you jazzist. We'll get this straight.

I can vouch for this when Dewster did my MP3 analysis. He kept me informed every step of the way, and then some.

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#1417024 - 04/14/10 11:38 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
CyberGene Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 712
Loc: Sofia, Bulgaria
Originally Posted By: dewster


--------------
- Kawai CA63 -
--------------

.....

OTHER:
- MP3 levels very good: peak @ -3dB, noise floor @ -78dB.
- Some "mosquito noise" at noise floor - quantization noise?



I hope it's not a huge off-topic and I am very close to ordering a Kawai CA63 (after long research journey) and I am wondering how the WAV on USB recording is implemented on that piano? The comment above made by Dewster makes me think it's not actually a direct digital rendering of the ROM-samples (plus reverb, etc.) but is rather an audio recording from the audio-out bus. What do you think? I am not sure if I should post in that topic, so I may create that question in an entirely new topic for Kawai James to answer if he has that information.
_________________________
http://www.myspace.com/evgenykumanov
Current DP: Kawai ES7
Previous DP-s: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100

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#1417162 - 04/14/10 02:21 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: CyberGene]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
It's an internal audio recording of what you actually play. I don't think this is an digital - analog - digital thing, but I'm not sure. It's just recorded on the USB drive you have inserted into the USB port, for both WAV and MP3 recording. I find the WAV recording of very high quality.
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1417169 - 04/14/10 02:32 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: CyberGene]
ChrisA Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 3841
Loc: Redondo Beach, California
Originally Posted By: CyberGene
Originally Posted By: dewster


--------------
- Kawai CA63 -
--------------

.....

OTHER:
- MP3 levels very good: peak @ -3dB, noise floor @ -78dB.
- Some "mosquito noise" at noise floor - quantization noise?



I hope it's not a huge off-topic and I am very close to ordering a Kawai CA63 (after long research journey) and I am wondering how the WAV on USB recording is implemented on that piano? The comment above made by Dewster makes me think it's not actually a direct digital rendering of the ROM-samples



It very well could be a recording of the ROM samples, if the samples were 12-bits. A noise floor of 72 dB is exactly what you'd get by direct recording of 12 bit samples

If the samples were 16-bits you exact about 96 dB

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