Hi all,

I am looking for a digital piano. After doing a little research on the internet, I decided to go to a local store to try out the Kawai CE200. The store manager did not carry it but instead he showed me the CN series and the CA series. The CA51 Ebony is on sale. I think it sounds much better than the CN models and the touch is much closer to a real piano. I had my eye on the CA51 Ebony (the sale price is $2,700 including delivery) and decided to do more research before I place the order.

Unfortunately I could not find any comments online about the CA51. The Kawai official website seems not to carry this model any more. Does anyone know if this is a discontinued item? Did anyone buy this and if you did please tell me about your experience with this digital piano. Is $2,700 a good price?

The CA51 is on sale because it's an old outdated model. The successor is CA63. The new model has lots of improvements for both key action and sound so I would by any means avoid to purchase the old model, only if it's a real bargain. 2,700USD does not seem to me like a real bargain, even not for an ebony model.

The only drawback for CA63 is that they doesn't have an ebony model for this (yet), only an SB (satin black) finish.

That salesman is good. You come into the store asking about an $1,800 piano and he tries to up sell you a discontinued model for $1,000 more than you were looking to spend.

The thing about Kawai is that they have been upgrading the sound in recent years but some of their models like the CE200 have been around "forever" and the sound generation technology is dated. There is enough difference that you really do want the models with recent release dates.

If you want to see a CE200. At least the local Sam Ash store near me has one on display. The CE200 has good key action but is not a recent model.

If you can spend $2,700 then you owe it to yourself to look at some of the Roland pianos too. Their new "Supernateral" sound is good and I like the PHA-II keys.

Thank you so much for your advice. It seemed like my suspicion was valid. The reason that I did not place the order right away was I really wanted to find out the difference between the CE200 and the CA51 and try to justify the $1200 difference. Do you by any chance have a summary of the major difference between the CE200 and the CA51? Moreover, how much do you think is a good bargain for the CA51?

To be honest, I don't care about the Ebony look. I think it will be decorated by my kids fingerprints easily. I actually like the satin black better but the store only has the Ebony for the CA51. For some reasons, they don't carry the CA63. They only have the CA93 which is totally out of my budget.

I don't think we have Sam Ash here. I found a Guitar Center but did not see the CE200 on their website. What other Pro store will carry the CE200? If I try the CA51 and am satisfied with it, then am I safe to say that I will like the CE200? I think Kraftmusic.com is offering a pretty good deal on CE200. I am considering if I should take the risk to order onlne without really trying out the real thing. Does anyone know of the service of the Karftmusic.com?

Hope my questions are not too scattered. Thanks again.

The CE200 is kind of a stripped down CA51 which is kind of an old model CA63.
I would wait until stores have the CA63 in stock.
You may also want to look at a Roland HP-305 which according to my analysis offers great value for money.

The CE200 and CA51 are sold in different "channels". The CA series is sold at low-volume dealers who need to have some pretty big markups. The CE200 is sold by high volume mass market retailers who can live off a 20% markup.

But as I said the old "harmonic image" sound is dated. I think it is OK and is musical and I even like it but it does not compete with Roland or Yamaha's best.

While you are there are Guitar Center try the Roland RD700GX. See what you think about the PHA-II keys action. They don't have the supernatural upgrade for it yet so you can't demo it but even without it I think the RD700 beats the CE200 in sound.

The Kawai keys are all good. It like them. But I think the Yamaha GH is as good. And the RD700 may beat both. At this level it is just opinion which is best and you have to try each. If you can spend $2,700 you an afford either of these key actions.

The new CA63 is said to be much improved.

I bought the CA51 in Ebony for about the same price - but that was before the CA63 came out. So there should be still some room for bargaining today. The new CA63 is about $3,000 - I would not be prepared to pay more than $2,400 for the CA51 now, especially if I was indifferent regarding the ebony finish.

ChrisA is right about pointing you to other brands to get a full picture. The RD700 is surely worth a try if you are not settled on cabinet-style pianos and would also do with a stage piano. If you do want a cabinet-style piano, both the HP-302 and HP-305 might be interesting for you. However, which brand to choose is very much a matter of personal taste - I myself don't particularly like the Roland sound and rather prefer Kawai.

I cannot say much about the CE200, since it is not available here in Germany (never heard of it until this thread) - from the specs I would say it looks like a hybrid between the CA and CN series. It has the CA keyboard, but a different (supposedly inferior?) speaker system. The CA51 is a fine instrument, but it is 3-year-old technology and that should be compensated for with a reasonable price.

CEG, the CE200 is based largely on the CA5, which as ChrisA correctly notes is one generation older than the CA51 (note that the CE200 and CA51 share the same AWA Grand PRO II wooden key action, however).

I rather like the Ebony Polish finish DPs, however it's a premium feature that you arguably do not require. My recommendation would also be to search for a dealer with a CA63 available, give it a play, and see what you think. The new sound engine is far, far superior to the CA51 and I expect you will appreciate the improvements made to the updated wooden-key action also.

As others have suggested, you may also like to consider similarly priced models from Roland and Yamaha, such as the HP-305 and CLP-340/CLP-370 respectively.

I hope this helps - good luck with your search.

Kind regards,
James
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For comparison, I thought this web site had a good summary:

http://www.onefamilysblog.com/2009/11/best-values-in-digital-pianos-non.html

For prices, check the prices paid thread. It lists 3 sales of the CA51:
$2086 - Mar 2007
$2475 - Jun 2007
$1934 - Oct 2009 (converted from GB pounds)

So, $2700 for a discontinued model? Just say no.

I am so glad to receive so much help from you all. Now I am very sure that the CA51 was a bad deal but I don't even know if I should try to bargain as I understand more of my need through the search. With respect to the sound of the piano, I am a Kawaiian. My current acoustic piano is a Yamaha which I bought it about ten years ago. I acutally think the sound is not my style but I bought it as a starter instrument and also Yamaha is known to have very few technical problems with its pianos. I have not tried any of the Roland DP yet but I heard that Yamaha's and Roland's piano sounds are more alike. The store manager at the Kawai store said the same thing. He said that is why he carries the Roland but not the Yamaha whcih is kind of a duplicate. Regarding the AWA Pro II action, I really like it and I experienced it with the CP51 at the store. That's my personal preferences on the sound and touch. Now the issue is to decide what price range I want to hit.

I can afford the $2700 but my original budget was not to exceed $2000. After all it is just another casual piano I want to add so that my two kids can have the practice at the same time and I also get to play a little bit after they go to bed. Therefore, I have a tendency to consider the CE200 again. What other types of DP are comparable to the CE200? As for the CA51, unless the store manager sweetens the deal to around $2000, I probably will not go for it. That's probably unrealistic.

I can see that you also suggested the Roland HP-302 and HP-305. I just searched online and found them quite decent. Of course I really need to go to a store to see if I like the sound and the touch. However, I guess these models are closer to the $3000 range. If I go for this range, I definitely need to compare these with the Kawai CA-63. I believe the only Kawai dealer in my region intentionally not to carry the CA-63 so that they can continue to sell the CA-51 at a deep margin. Sigh!

That is nonsense. Yamaha and Roland sounds are very different, so I would definitely also try one of the new SN Roland DPs like the HP-302 or HP-307.

These are the big three: Yamaha, Roland and KAWAI. If you are on a budget, add CASIO to that. You should then at least try these brands in your price range (of course the most current releases) before you decide to buy.

The Yamaha YDP160 has key action that is comparable to the CE200. Yes the CE200 claims wooden keys but I don't think the material matters so much as the design of the key action. The sound inside the YDP160 arguably is better. The YDP costs about $500 less then the CE200. I think Kawai and Yamaha have very roughly related sound and keys. The Roland is different and you may or may not like it better but Roland may be over budgt unless you can use a stage piano, the RD700GX s by far the best of the lot.

For youpurpose, a second practice piano for the kids the Yamaha would do fine. You just have to bring the headphones with you to the store and play it for 30 minutes or so. do NOT compare on-line specs.

ChrisA, while I'm sure the YDP-160 is a perfectly good digital piano, I disagree that the keyboard action is comparable to the CE200.

Regardless of the material used for each key, the mechanism and movement of the KAWAI action is far closer to that of an acoustic grand than anything currently available from Yamaha - with the obvious exception of the GranTouch and AvantGrand.

Cheers,
James
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