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#1410525 - 04/04/10 06:27 AM
Playing what the composer intended
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Full Member
Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 166
Loc: Vancouver, BC
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I have often hear the suggestion that you should play what the composer intended. While I have asked myself many times about the composer's intention when analyzing a piece, I find it debatable, or even objectionable the connotation that it is the "golden rule" for what shall be played.
To me, the score and the composer's intention is only a guideline to my own interpretation and my own musical experience. It is an important question to ask, but it's only a means to and end, not the end goal itself. This is of course only my personal opinion, what's your take on it?
PS: I'm cross posting this in the teacher's forum, I would love to hear what the piano teachers have to say
Edited by zxcjason (04/04/10 06:28 AM)
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#1410528 - 04/04/10 06:47 AM
Re: Playing what the composer intended
[Re: zxcjason]
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1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 1301
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I agree with you - there is no golden rule as to the approach that is the best method in interpretation. Very frequently, I disagree with a composer, and also very frequently I disagree with a player's interpretation.
The term is used frequently, because there are those performers who are looking for what the composer intended, and are interested in trying to attain that. I think the term is most useful for those pianists trying to learn a piece who wish to interpret it differently. It's more impressive when someone understands (to the best of their ability and available knowledge) the composer's intentions, is able to perform them, and then chooses to re-interpratate it: at least they are able to handle the original.
Like composers - we have more respect for a composer who has learned, say, counterpoint and is able to write it flawlessly - but then chooses to go past counterpoint. At least they can't be accused of ignoring counterpoint because they cannot understand it.
So, I agree with you - there's many different ways to interpret a piece. I have my preferences, but they aren't necesarrily correct. I only demand historical interpratation if the pianist is actively claiming to do so.
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#1410535 - 04/04/10 07:18 AM
Re: Playing what the composer intended
[Re: Mattardo]
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1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 1709
Loc: Sydney
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I agree - imagine how boring it would be if everyone played a particular piece the same way, or even a similar way.
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#1410555 - 04/04/10 08:31 AM
Re: Playing what the composer intended
[Re: custard apple]
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3000 Post Club Member
Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 3765
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But don't you find it interesting that there are so many different interpretations particularly because so many of us have DIFFERENT ideas of what the composers wanted?
I'll admit it has been a big problem for me, sticking to the score, I would have a great idea that I want to do and then go off the score without realizing until someone tells me... and then I feel bad..
But I think a great deal of enlightment comes from purely analyzing a score. Not just harmonically - structurally too and thematically. (thematically.. is that a word..)
_________________________
'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'
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#1410557 - 04/04/10 08:40 AM
Re: Playing what the composer intended
[Re: Pogorelich.]
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2000 Post Club Member
Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
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The real problems are not so much about what the composer intended, but when people ban things based on nothing that has anything to do with the composer's intentions. Eg. If you follow the style of rubato that Mozart and Chopin described very specifically. That particular intention of the composer is usually 'banned' for being too old-fashioned- and never mind how the composer felt about it. It's deeply hypocritical. The "composer's intentions" are widely used as an excuse to promote lazy, thoughtless adherence to written instructions, and to imply that anything that falls outside of those instructions is against the intentions. Contradicting the score outright is a separate matter (one that I'm frequently all for) but the former is the big problem today.
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#1410563 - 04/04/10 08:54 AM
Re: Playing what the composer intended
[Re: Mattardo]
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2000 Post Club Member
Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
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Yeah, that's exactly the sort of thing. Even professional critics frequently have a go at performers for this type of thing- generally writing a lot of absolute drivel about how the performer is more interested in displaying themself than in playing what the composer asked for etc. I'm not a big fan of defining "correct" approaches if that means banning anything that falls outside of it, regardless of success. However, it infuriates me more than anything when those who combine ignorance with arrogance have a single idea of correctness that is not even accurate. If that's what someone wants to judge on, they could at least get their facts right. I think this is single biggest reason why modern performance is usually so limited in scope. Things are banned left right and centre, based on totally false premises- then made to look profound by the ban being attributed to the composer (instead of one small-minded idiot's personal taste).
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#1410602 - 04/04/10 10:42 AM
Re: Playing what the composer intended
[Re: Nyiregyhazi]
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5000 Post Club Member
Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 5782
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
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For starters, I must say I don't understand anyone who states that they disagree with a composer. On what basis? Who are you to disagree? Do you not think that the composer knew what he was doing? Are you a more knowledgeable musician, than say, Beethoven? What compositional expertise do you possess that allows you to disagree with Bach, Beethoven, whomever? I've come to really dislike the word, interpretation, altogether. It is a far too loosely used word. I, for one, want to hear what the composer wrote, not what Joe Blow wrote. Why more performers don't simply include their own names in the programme is something I've often wondered about when listening to a performance (i.e. Sonata in f minor, Op. 2 No. 1...Beethoven/Joe). Granted any performance will have it's own personal fingerprint and you could make the case for including the performer's name with ANY performance, but I'm talking about performers who take such liberties as to have basically "re-written" the piece. There are some very famous pianists quite guilty of such practices (and, amazingly, they're lauded as brilliant, insightful performers, simply because they've done something different...whether, or not, what they've done has anything to do with what's actually on the page). I've often thought of this comparison...the leaders of two countries with diametrically opposed ideology come to the table with the intent of finding a mutual peace between their countries. Since neither speak the other's language there is an interpreter. Leader A says, "We realise that we have long been opposed to each other's way of thinking about many things, but realise that finding a way to meet on common ground, with the end result being a mutual accord, is the only way for both of us to continue to mutually exist and interact...blah blah blah." The interpreter takes all this in and then turns to leader B and says, "Well, I know WHAT he said, but what he really MEANT was, "We see you here, but know you're a lying scumbag with a hidden agenda and would love nothing better than to nuke you off the face of the map." Now, what happens? Of course, ensuing chaos. Interpretation, is not about what YOU THINK the composer is saying, but WHAT the composer actually DID say. Did I just hear Beethoven, or was that Joe Blow? I thought Beethoven wrote it this way? Maybe he didn't. After all, Joe is deemed the genius/expert so he must be right. "Interpretation" will, of course, continue to be something that's never truly defined, simply, because opinion exists. There are no two musicians who play a work the same way, thus leaving any score open to a multitude of thought. However, everything necessary for a successful performance of any work is included right there on the page in front of you. A composer had an idea and felt it strong enough to share with the rest of the world, so he/she developed that idea and penned it...with (in many cases, but not all) directions as to how to realise his ideas. I've heard maybe two pianists in my lifetime who have followed a score almost to the tee, and, in both cases those performances were the most exciting performances of a work that I've heard from anyone. Why? Because, the composer actually KNEW what he was doing when he wrote the work, and, all the poetry, dialogue, drama, tenderness, etc., etc., are included in his/her work already. It's simply our job to realise (as opposed to interpret) it.
_________________________
"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy
"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."
♪ ≠ $
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#1410621 - 04/04/10 11:07 AM
Re: Playing what the composer intended
[Re: Andromaque]
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5000 Post Club Member
Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 5782
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
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who are those two pianists? One was Ingrid Fliter, with the first movement of Beethoven's Op. 31 No. 3 and the other was Perahia, with Beethoven's Op. 14 No. 2.
_________________________
"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy
"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."
♪ ≠ $
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#1410625 - 04/04/10 11:11 AM
Re: Playing what the composer intended
[Re: stores]
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2000 Post Club Member
Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
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Performers do include their names in the programme. They don't list is under each piece because why would they need to? Anyone who doesn't understand that they are hearing the performer's take on each work performed doesn't understand performance. They should programme a MIDI file that obeys every instruction and see how they enjoy the "composer's" interpretation. Beethoven is known to have changed tempos left right and centre- and he knew full well that he did so. A straight performance does not represent his attitude to music in the slightest.
"I've heard maybe two pianists in my lifetime who have followed a score almost to the tee, and, in both cases those performances were the most exciting performances of a work that I've heard from anyone. Why? Because, the composer actually KNEW what he was doing when he wrote the work, and, all the poetry, dialogue, drama, tenderness, etc., etc., are included in his/her work already. It's simply our job to realise (as opposed to interpret) it."
Sorry, but that is rationally verifiable as a false premise. This is easily falsifiable, because if you got a strict MIDI rendition that followed every instruction, it would have been obvious that is was not "all" included in the score at all. The performers put it there. Just because they did not do so in an immediately obvious way that arouses your distate does not mean that the work played itself. Unless a person take MIDI as their ideal performance, it logically follows that it is a particular amount of interpretation beyond the score that the person likes. Now who are you (or indeed anyone) to personally define what the correct amount of interpretation is, and deem that no more is permissable? You believe that you can personally divine precisely what must be added to the cold MIDI rendition and you know exactly where to stop before the composer would be offended? Or is the MIDI file indeed your dream performance? There's a major contradition between ideal and reality- unless MIDI is the most impressive performer for you. I rather doubt it. Assuming it isn't, there is a major discrepancy between what you preach as your basis for enjoyment and the reality of what you enjoy. As soon as you look at reality instead of ideal, it's clear that you are talking of something completely subjective.
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#1410627 - 04/04/10 11:19 AM
Re: Playing what the composer intended
[Re: Nyiregyhazi]
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5000 Post Club Member
Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 5782
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
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MIDI shmidi. I'm talking about rendering what's on the page, and if realised, as written, then nothing else need be added. It's a fairly simple concept that easily understandable and requires that no more words be put in one's mouth. There is no false premise. Simply the idea that one REALISES rather than interprets.
_________________________
"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy
"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."
♪ ≠ $
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#1410630 - 04/04/10 11:24 AM
Re: Playing what the composer intended
[Re: stores]
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2000 Post Club Member
Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
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MIDI shmidi. I'm talking about rendering what's on the page, and if realised, as written, then nothing else need be added. It's a fairly simple concept that easily understandable and requires that no more words be put in one's mouth. There is no false premise. Simply the idea that one REALISES rather than interprets. Indeed, hence the MIDI example. Programme in a MIDI rendition that obeys every instruction on the page and you see what happens when you ACTUALLY add nothing beyond what it says (not when you pretend to add nothing). Hence the verifiable fact that (unless this example of only doing what a score says is pleasing to you) you require a performer to employ a quantity of interpretation. Otherwise there is no music. Sorry, but your argument collapses when you stop to consider what happens if you succeed in doing nothing beyond what it says.
Edited by Nyiregyhazi (04/04/10 11:29 AM)
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#1410631 - 04/04/10 11:28 AM
Re: Playing what the composer intended
[Re: Nyiregyhazi]
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5000 Post Club Member
Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 5782
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
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Nevermind. You're obviously bent on taking things another direction and I'm not "klutzish" enough to sit and argue with you for days on end.
_________________________
"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy
"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."
♪ ≠ $
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#1410633 - 04/04/10 11:31 AM
Re: Playing what the composer intended
[Re: stores]
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2000 Post Club Member
Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
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No, I was pointing out a logical flaw in the direction you took it in. Apologies if giving a verifiable example of what happens when you actually realise ideals (which you preached as your foundations for judgement) is inconvenient to you...
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#1410639 - 04/04/10 11:52 AM
Re: Playing what the composer intended
[Re: stores]
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2000 Post Club Member
Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 2139
Loc: Rockford, IL
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But I think a great deal of enlightment comes from purely analyzing a score. Not just harmonically - structurally too and thematically. (thematically.. is that a word..)
Angelina : Yes, thematically is a word.  A story: I am not always a very careful music reader. I like to dive in and play. I've been working on Scriabin's Prelude Op.11 No.9. The other day, someone pointed out to me that in the concluding chord, a broken chord, the first note played (lowest of low E) is held for three beats only, while the rest of the notes are held three more. I looked. Yup. There is was in black and white. I said, "Why would he do that?" My friend said, "It doesn't matter. He wrote it that way. We have to play it that way." I said, "But what was he thinking? That doesn't make any sense!" I had to fiddle around with touch a lot to get something that seemed to fit the flow of the piece. And even played as quietly and tenderly as the score indicates, ending the piece that way seems thin and unsatisfying. The rest of the piece is so richly resonant. Was he trying to make a structural/technical echo in the denouement to the climax of the piece (that dramatic single middle C sharp)? Is it right? Now, for reference, I'm trying to find performances where it's played as written. Guess what? stores : Sometimes you learn things by wrecking them. As long as we don't wreck the original score!!! (Music librarians and publishers, unite! Keep paper copies! (I'm quite serious in saying this, though some degree of humor is intended. Digital archiving and property rights issues are worrisome, thorny issues...)) Personally, I have no problem with someone exploring a reading in a creative way. After all, it's a performance. No performance is permanent. Even the recorded ones last from the time it starts to the time it finishes. I'd prefer it if the artist would set up the performance with some sort of warning if he/she is going to really challenge tradition. But I regard each performance as a gift. It's the thought that counts and is to be appreciated. Thoughtless/careless gifts are disappointing.
_________________________
1940 Lester Spinet 1933 Schiller Console 1903 Haddorff Upright Pianos follow me home in reverse chronological order. OT, old news, still relevant: http://youtu.be/I4KIkOzw4XM
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#1410642 - 04/04/10 12:05 PM
Re: Playing what the composer intended
[Re: zxcjason]
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Full Member
Registered: 11/05/08
Posts: 61
Loc: Switzerland
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... To me, the score and the composer's intention is only a guideline to my own interpretation and my own musical experience... Rubinstein's insistence on absolute fidelity to the printed note surprised Hofmann, since he had heard his teacher take liberties himself in his concerts. When he asked Rubinstein to reconcile this paradox, Rubinstein answered, as many teachers have through the ages, "When you are as old as I am, you may do as I do." Then Rubinstein added, "If you can.""Individual interpretation" shouldn't be a substitute for inability to play "as written".
_________________________
All bad poetry springs from genuine feeling. Oscar Wilde
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#1410643 - 04/04/10 12:07 PM
Re: Playing what the composer intended
[Re: Cinnamonbear]
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 12483
Loc: Iowa City, IA
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I think the world is big enough for all kinds of people. I think it's important to have artists for whom the composers' intentions and indications in the score are of paramount importance. I also think it's important to have artists who see it as their duty to bring new and different ideas to the stage, even when it's not necessarily what the composer wanted or indicated. And stores, are you familiar with Nicholson Baker? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_FoldHe also founded the American Newspaper Repository, now housed at Duke University, for the preservation of our country's newspapers in good old-fashioned tangible paper format!
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt) www.pianoped.comwww.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed
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#1410650 - 04/04/10 12:32 PM
Re: Playing what the composer intended
[Re: Kreisler]
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Full Member
Registered: 09/29/07
Posts: 266
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Chopin's nocturne in Eb minor is no longer Chopin's nocturne in Eb minor when the score is not followed, it is an imitation and should no longer be called by it's name, but "variation on ____" or "paraphrase on ____". It is the same for any piece of music. It loses it's value and purpose when a performer deviates too far from the score.
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#1410652 - 04/04/10 12:45 PM
Re: Playing what the composer intended
[Re: lisztonian]
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2000 Post Club Member
Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
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Who determines what is too far though? Would playing a Mazurka with four whole beats in some bars nullify the fact it was by Chopin? How about when Chopin did that himself? No longer Chopin? But if you play the score literally and with strict metre. That is supposed to represent Chopin better than what he did? The problem is that oversimplified thinking about what is actually a very complex issue often means that people are being pushed further away from the composer's style, supposedly in the name of what the composer wanted. To follow every marking is not necessarily to capture something that even resembles the mood that the composer wanted.
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#1410653 - 04/04/10 12:48 PM
Re: Playing what the composer intended
[Re: lisztonian]
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4000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 4620
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
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Hehehe, lisztonian.
Didn't Ravel say something about not "interpreting" his music, but just playing what's on the page and the interpretation will come?
You see, even if everyone follows exactly what's on the page, people's range of dynamics will be different, people's length/drama of ritardandos will vary, and of course the way they shape phrases will be different.
If a scholarly version of the score (example: urtext) says one thing, I wouldn't do it differently. But I'm not really gonna point fingers at anyone who does differently. Like, my favorite performance of L'isle Joyeuse is Horowitz's, and he changes the rhythm of the ending! Lol!
Isn't Chopin actually quite ambiguous? Didn't Chopin often at lessons with students playing his music mark something out in this score and tell the student to play it differently? And then that student published that piece with the change?
Edited by Orange Soda King (04/04/10 12:51 PM)
_________________________
Discontinuing the streaming practice for now, unless a few members PM me and still want me to do it.
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#1410654 - 04/04/10 12:49 PM
Re: Playing what the composer intended
[Re: stores]
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1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 1301
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For starters, I must say I don't understand anyone who states that they disagree with a composer. On what basis? Who are you to disagree? Do you not think that the composer knew what he was doing? Are you a more knowledgeable musician, than say, Beethoven? What compositional expertise do you possess that allows you to disagree with Bach, Beethoven, whomever? I've come to really dislike the word, interpretation, altogether. It is a far too loosely used word. I, for one, want to hear what the composer wrote, not what Joe Blow wrote. Why more performers don't simply include their own names in the programme is something I've often wondered about when listening to a performance (i.e. Sonata in f minor, Op. 2 No. 1...Beethoven/Joe). Granted any performance will have it's own personal fingerprint and you could make the case for including the performer's name with ANY performance, but I'm talking about performers who take such liberties as to have basically "re-written" the piece. There are some very famous pianists quite guilty of such practices (and, amazingly, they're lauded as brilliant, insightful performers, simply because they've done something different...whether, or not, what they've done has anything to do with what's actually on the page). I've often thought of this comparison...the leaders of two countries with diametrically opposed ideology come to the table with the intent of finding a mutual peace between their countries. Since neither speak the other's language there is an interpreter. Leader A says, "We realise that we have long been opposed to each other's way of thinking about many things, but realise that finding a way to meet on common ground, with the end result being a mutual accord, is the only way for both of us to continue to mutually exist and interact...blah blah blah." The interpreter takes all this in and then turns to leader B and says, "Well, I know WHAT he said, but what he really MEANT was, "We see you here, but know you're a lying scumbag with a hidden agenda and would love nothing better than to nuke you off the face of the map." Now, what happens? Of course, ensuing chaos. Interpretation, is not about what YOU THINK the composer is saying, but WHAT the composer actually DID say. Did I just hear Beethoven, or was that Joe Blow? I thought Beethoven wrote it this way? Maybe he didn't. After all, Joe is deemed the genius/expert so he must be right. "Interpretation" will, of course, continue to be something that's never truly defined, simply, because opinion exists. There are no two musicians who play a work the same way, thus leaving any score open to a multitude of thought. However, everything necessary for a successful performance of any work is included right there on the page in front of you. A composer had an idea and felt it strong enough to share with the rest of the world, so he/she developed that idea and penned it...with (in many cases, but not all) directions as to how to realise his ideas. I've heard maybe two pianists in my lifetime who have followed a score almost to the tee, and, in both cases those performances were the most exciting performances of a work that I've heard from anyone. Why? Because, the composer actually KNEW what he was doing when he wrote the work, and, all the poetry, dialogue, drama, tenderness, etc., etc., are included in his/her work already. It's simply our job to realise (as opposed to interpret) it. It's very simple, Stores - not everyone is a composer's personal mouthpiece to the world and feels some quasi-spiritual committment to bringing the composer's ideas exactly as written to the world. We're individuals and, as such, will act like individuals. You are laboring under some mistaken impression that it's the holy, spiritual duty of all pianists to faithfully realize a composer's built-in ideas and emotions. While I agree with you that a composer should not be ignored and I personlly try to respect a composer's wishes, not everyone feels the same way. And there's nothing wrong with that. There's no law that says 'Thou shalt play it as Chopin intended or else'. If there is, it's only your own personal credo and you're applying it to everyone else around you. Sometimes, I couldn't give a damn about what Haydn wanted and I'll play it my way. Sometimes I do give a damn. Big deal. Like I said in an earlier post, it should only be a problem when a performer is NOT listening to a composer's wishes, BUT he is claiming to do so. Most composers can't stand how their predecessors did things, which is how music is advanced - new compositions, new ideas, new methods.
Edited by Mattardo (04/04/10 12:51 PM)
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#1410656 - 04/04/10 12:50 PM
Re: Playing what the composer intended
[Re: Nyiregyhazi]
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5000 Post Club Member
Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 5782
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
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No, I was pointing out a logical flaw in the direction you took it in. Apologies if giving a verifiable example of what happens when you actually realise ideals (which you preached as your foundations for judgement) is inconvenient to you... No apologies needed, since, you pointed out no flaw, thus I don't find it inconvenient, but thanks.
_________________________
"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy
"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."
♪ ≠ $
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#1410664 - 04/04/10 01:03 PM
Re: Playing what the composer intended
[Re: zxcjason]
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Full Member
Registered: 04/04/10
Posts: 64
Loc: Illinois, USA.
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To me, the score and the composer's intention is only a guideline to my own interpretation and my own musical experience. I partially agree with you and some of the other posts—that music is more than just what is on the page, a simplification of sorts. I think that a great work of music takes on an identity of its own, removed from the composer. It is this identity that then speaks to people in different ways. Similar to Plato's theory of all things existing on a higher, conceptual plane—works of genius transcend what is on the page. That being said, there is a limit to over-exaggerated rubatos and dynamics. One should never make alterations just for the sake of doing something different. Do what sounds and feels right to you, considering the score itself, other recordings and how the notes feel on your own hands. You are not the composer. It's ridiculous and fruitless to try to exactly emulate the composer. Classical music is not about 'god'-like worship of composers—it's about music. Now pop music on the other hand...
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#1410668 - 04/04/10 01:05 PM
Re: Playing what the composer intended
[Re: stores]
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2000 Post Club Member
Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 2464
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If you are not even willing to acknowedlge the simple fact that a well-programmed MIDI files constitutes precisely what you described (that where all instructions are obeyed, without any deviations beyond those instructions), clearly you are too lost in a preconceived viewpoint to objectively assess the holes in the argument you made. I am deliberately dealing in objectively verifiable fact rather than opinion, but if you are not prepared to rethink anything, I realise there is no point.
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#1410671 - 04/04/10 01:09 PM
Re: Playing what the composer intended
[Re: stores]
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3000 Post Club Member
Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 3765
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It is important to follow what the composer inteded. Because then, you'll find all sorts of things.
For classical, it's a must to follow the score. To what Beethoven wrote, it's not needed to add more. Baroque I am really not great wit, but I know there was a huge deal of improvisations and whatnot. But then you get composers like Grieg, who said he doesn't care how you play his music, a long as you have ideas. And then you have Debussy who was absolutely insistant on his markings (and didn't give a crap about wrong notes much). And late romantics, where you should of course stick to the score but if you have nothing to say and nothing to offer and you are restricted to the score doing everything literally, you will sound like utter s**t. I'm sorry. But in music you have to have a heart, and everybody's heart is different therefore you will get different interpretations.
My policy is, follow the score but do not be restricted by it. Come on people, you need balls in this business. Not to make things different for the sake of them being different, but find reasons, find out what the composer wanted - something other people have somehow missed. Granted the more things you find a composer intended and had in mind, the more foundation you will have to insert the humanity, emotion and heart of it all.
Edited by AngelinaPogorelich (04/04/10 01:25 PM)
_________________________
'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'
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#1410754 - 04/04/10 03:50 PM
Re: Playing what the composer intended
[Re: Pogorelich.]
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Full Member
Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 166
Loc: Vancouver, BC
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Both "composer's intention" and "interpretation" are sometimes abused as a lame excuse for laziness, ignorance and arrogance, which is ultimately what I find objectionable. But I regard each performance as a gift. It's the thought that counts and is to be appreciated. Thoughtless/careless gifts are disappointing. Definitely, and I think the thoughtlessness can come from both camps. But in music you have to have a heart, and everybody's heart is different therefore you will get different interpretations.
Well said, Angelina. If I have a golden rule for interpretation, "honestly following my heart" will be it (and of course not using it as an excuse for thoughtlessness) But I think a great deal of enlightment comes from purely analyzing a score. Not just harmonically - structurally too and thematically. (thematically.. is that a word..)
Cannot agree more. It is always a real joy when things start to make sense and come together from the score, just like in CinnanmonBear's story. You are laboring under some mistaken impression that it's the holy, spiritual duty of all pianists to faithfully realize a composer's built-in ideas and emotions. While I agree with you that a composer should not be ignored and I personlly try to respect a composer's wishes, not everyone feels the same way. And there's nothing wrong with that. There's no law that says 'Thou shalt play it as Chopin intended or else'. If there is, it's only your own personal credo and you're applying it to everyone else around you.
Well said!
Edited by zxcjason (04/04/10 03:51 PM)
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#1410756 - 04/04/10 03:55 PM
Re: Playing what the composer intended
[Re: lisztonian]
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Full Member
Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 166
Loc: Vancouver, BC
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Chopin's nocturne in Eb minor is no longer Chopin's nocturne in Eb minor when the score is not followed, it is an imitation and should no longer be called by it's name, but "variation on ____" or "paraphrase on ____". It is the same for any piece of music. It loses it's value and purpose when a performer deviates too far from the score. It is interesting that Chopin got brought up. In many passages in Chopin's pieces, I actaully feel that he intend for some improvisational freedom (which unfortunately I can't quite do for now). On the other hand, I agree with Angelina for Beethoven, nothing really needs to be added.
Edited by zxcjason (04/04/10 03:56 PM)
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#1410759 - 04/04/10 04:02 PM
Re: Playing what the composer intended
[Re: zxcjason]
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 14775
Loc: New York
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Chopin's nocturne in Eb minor is no longer Chopin's nocturne in Eb minor when the score is not followed..... It is interesting that Chopin got brought up.... In this case it's more than interesting. I think it would be impossible to be playing Chopin at all if we were playing a nocturne in Eb minor.  BTW......good thread! What annoys me is when I add ornaments to an older piece and someone will inevitably say "oh, that's not in the score...tsk, tsk". Well, some performance practices were understood to be done, even if not specified by the composer. They usually relied on the good common sense of their fellow performers...... When I play the Eb major nocturne, I sometimes alter some of the figures, without any guilt. My teacher approved in concept, if not in the particulars. 
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"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)
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