Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards Yamaha AvantGrand N2 vs. similar priced Yamaha upright?

Hi, OK, it seems like this thread develloped into a rather heated argument..

I forget to mention in the original post that this piano would be used for practicing, so a realistic keyboard action is crucial. Also, I play a lot of jazz, using harmonically dense/complex chords etc., and playing on a typical stage piano like CP300, RD700GX is just very unsatifying for me. I just can't connect with the instrument I'm playing. So far, digitals have disappointed me, but I was hoping that the N2 would actually be a viable alternative. My biggest problem, is that I usually will get impressed by the "next big thing", than after a while and playing the digital instrument some, all the flaws and lack of real connection and subtle details (compared to a acoustic piano) becomes more and more annoying.

I see here that there are two very seperate and different views of the N2. I will try to find one, and try it out myself. Thanks for the advices. Yeah, maybe I should ask the question in the AP forum too.. Thanks

With all due respect to Karnevil, this thread is really a nonsense.

If the OP had wanted a balanced view he/she would have asked the question in the Piano forum [Edit] or Pianists forum. As it is he/she asked in the Digital forum and got the answer he/she wanted.

Well in terms of technical tone generation the Yamaha CP1 family is better than AG, as is Roland Supernatural sound engine found in several of their more expensive models. But in terms of the playing experience (note - NOT through headphones), the AG must be some way ahead due to its tactile response system that aims to recreate the physical cabinet and soundboard resonance of an acoustic piano.

Steve

Me too.

I know you are a militant AvantGrand proponent but please give me some credit for not dreaming up prices off the top of my head.

In the UK N2 prices are not displayed on websites but in a local store it is priced at £8,000 (inc VAT, our sales tax) which, at the current exchange rate, is roughly equivalent to $12,000.

The YUS5 is advertised by a well known online/physical Yamaha supplier at £8,200.

The Kawai K8 is advertised on a different well known piano supplier's website as £9,200 "Phone for our price" - which implies the final price might well be nearer £8,000.

(The Kawai K6 is advertised on the same website as £7,400 (2 pedal version) "Phone for our price")

I note that the prices you use for the Yamaha and Kawai the same as manufacturer's suggested retail prices in Piano Buyer. Not what a buyer can actually expect to pay.

Chris, I totally get your point, and I think you totally didn't get MY point. I'm saying that although your point might have been valid for the last few hundred years, it won't be valid anymore very quickly because something else has finally arrived that's going to make the acoustic piano obsolete very quickly.

I have a very expensive Minolta SLR film camera that is worthless today because digital SLRs with very high resolution have finally arrived in the market and made my camera worthless. When digital cameras just came out, they only had the cheaper point-and-shoot varieties with built-in lenses that was no competition to the full-size professional SLR cameras. But as soon as the digital SLRs came out with sufficient resolution to enable full-size photographs to be printed that look just as good as the film camera, and on top of that, enabled full use of interchangeable SLR professional lenses, it marked the death of film based SLR cameras almost overnight because finally, a viable alternative has arrived. The digital SLR camera killing the film SLR camera is a perfect analogy to make here. And I would say the (still analog) keyboard action is equivalent to the still analog SLR lenses. Once it came out, do you see anybody buying film SLR cameras on eBay anymore? Wait another 3 to 5 years and maybe you'll see the same demise of the acoustic upright happening, if not already.


First of all, it's a total off-the-point distraction to ask why you need the action of an acoustic when you're playing a digital. You only do this because you can no longer argue that the N2 action is not the same (and inferior as implied) to the acoustic. So all of a sudden, you want to make the tradition acoustic action look bad to distract from not being able to say that the N2 action is inferior. It's as if, had the DP sound somehow can be 100% the same as an acoustic and nobody can tell the difference from a blind test, you might have posed the same question about the sound just to distract from the argument/comparison. All of a sudden, I might hear you say "You can argue that the sound of a regular DP is far superior..." by just replacing the word "action" with the word "sound" from your last sentence above.

Having said that, there is actually a new camp of thought thinking along the same line, that digital action doesn't need to mimic acoustic action and digital sound doesn't need to mimic acoustic sound. But that's not the discussion we're having here. The real discussion here is whether the state of the best DP right now is a close enough copy of the upright AP or not? So superiority is judged by how close the copy can be made in sound and action along with other important attributes.

As for calling the acoustic action complicated and not ideal and made only as a necessary design based on the acoustic layout of how it is needed to be made strike the strings, etc. I won't argue with you on that. The only comment I will make is that it's like a standard that's once already established, people are trained on it and you can't make people unlearn what they learned, no matter how efficient a new design can be. Such an example is the Qwerty keyboard. You don't see any computer manufacturers deviate from this on their new PCs or laptops, do you? So it is what it is, an established standard that's going to be hard to change. Otherwise, if you want to argue about the action, why not stop there and not argue about the keyboard layout and what else have you as well?


And the point I want to make about the action on the N2 is that you can use it to control the sound just the same way you do on an acoustic. You can still make it sing and roar and weep and sparkle all you want just the same and you won't feel any difference as if you played a grand acoustic Yamaha piano. Why can't you? It's the exact same action that Yamaha uses for their acoustic grand pianos.


Who said that music only is about repeating notes as fast as possible? Not me. You asked me what the difference is that made the grand action superior to the upright action and I just simply answered your question. If you don't care for this difference, then that's your opinion. Obviously many others think differently, enough for manufacturers to go to a lot of trouble to design the double escapement feature into the modern grand action. Enough for ALL manufacturers to follow suit and make it a standard on the grand piano. Enough to make a few manufacturers of very high end uprights to go to great lengths to mimic this escapement functionality into their products, despite it being not an easy and natural thing to do on an upright because they get no help from gravity to do it. Enough to make most piano teachers to want their students to upgrade from uprights to grand pianos.

Double escapement is not the only difference, albeit the main one. The grand action also tends to have longer keys, which enables better pivot positioning of the keys for better nuances in control as well.

John B, I never said you dreamed up the prices in your heads. But the only way to fairly compare prices is to talk list price vs list price (and yes, I got them from the Fine book). You can talk about advertised street prices but it's still not as meaningful because street prices change from locale to locale, let alone continent to continent.

If you insist on using street prices, the only thing I can say is that it looks like there's more discount off the retail prices on the acoustics you mentioned than on the N2. I wonder what that means? Maybe it means that the N2 is in higher demand than those acoustics in your locale, and perhaps that's why it's not discounted as heavily? Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm just trying to prove the point that there are so many factors that affect street prices that you can't take them at face values. The only street pricing that matters to the OP is the local pricing where the OP resides.

For me the answer is very clear. I would choose the DP anytime (and every time).

It seems to me that you automatically discount or ignore anything that doesn't fit with your constantly repeated thesis that the AvantGrand is the be all and end all.

It isn't.

For some it might be the right answer. For others it won't.

Chris and the rest of us have the luxury to be able to point to facts about the past and the present while you are pointing to your personal beliefs about the future.

Perhaps your beliefs are correct, but there is no overwhelmingly convincing evidence for any of us to join your religion.

SLR cameras may or may not be a useful case to compare to pianos. As you know, there are still shortcomings of digital when compared to film. Personally, I miss my Kodachrome 25. My SLR can still use it, but I can't get it. Acoustic pianos do not suffer from being dependent on complex products and processing infrastructure as film SLR cameras.

It is already true that the "result" of what an acoustic piano and a digital piano can produce on a recording can almost be equally convincing. However, the "user experience" of the player is and will remain very different. Also, the use of a digital piano in live performances is very different. As long as pianos are played by people for the inherent joy of playing and for performing, the acoustic will remain in demand.

The problem with your logic is highlighted.
There is more to a piano than the action.
By definition, the acoustic allows infinite gradations.
By definition, the discrete, sample based recordings played back on the AvantGrand speakers do not.

No sure why you said that because I only argue with what I don't agree with point by point. Your point specifically is on pricing and that's what I take issue with.

I never argue for the N2 on the merit of its sound compared to the acoustic sound. While I may have my own opinion that the N2 sound is good enough, I also said that I totally respect others' opinion if they prefer the acoustic sound and they prefer to place heavy weight on the sound. So how does that make me "automatically discount and ignore anything that doesn't fit ...."? And please show me anywhere on this thread where I said that the Avant-Grand is the be all and end all.


You got no argument from me there. I'm not set out here to convince anybody to buy an Avant-Grand. We're all adults here and everybody knows what they want.

If this had been a generic DP vs AP debate with any DP thrown in the picture, I wouldn't have bothered chiming in because I'm fully aware of the basic DP's shortcomings in terms of both sound and action compared to APs. But the Avant-Grand is almost a different breed of DP, so when a thread like this, which is specific to the Avant-Grand, is started and opinions are expressed that I don't agree with as an owner of an N3, I just want to make my opinions known, too, even if it's in contention against other people's opinion and may rub them the wrong way. This is because I'm not just a random player who might have tried the AG a couple of two, three times from before. I've used the N3 for over 7 months now and I've known its capability and experienced what it has to offer fully well every single day.

So at the end of the day, everything is laid out and everybody's opinion is on the table, and the OP or any other readers can read and agree or disagree with anything anybody said here. I don't care to convince anybody to accept my answers. I just care to express my opinions just as you expressed yours. Sorry if we don't see eye to eye, but that's what debates are all about.

Well, you've fooled me then!

Mission accomplished.

Well, you must be careful, Volusiano, because it's quite obvious some people are very easily fooled, and would get the impression you were trying to influence them to buy an Avant Grand.

Having said that, I do share your enthusiasm for the exceptional N2/N3 and firmly believe they easily out-perform ANY upright piano, and rival many of the high end grand pianos.

Having an acoustic grand of fairly good name, and being able to compare the N3 with it, suffice to say, I'd choose the N3 for it's spectacular sound, and, of course, it's ease of maintenance (no tuning) and also it's ability to be recorded much easier.

We wouldn't want to fool anyone into buying something superior...they are even those here who rate instruments with a graphic illustration, rather than actually play them for themselves...either a sign of great inexperience, or perhaps, more likely, a lack of self-confidence in their own judgement and hearing.

There will always be supporters of acoustic uprights, but, their numbers decrease with each advance in the digital piano.

I await the next generation N-series, which is rumored to have some of the CP-series technology, as well as more voices and Audio to USB recording.

It's a great world we live in. Bravo Yamaha.

Snazzy

NAMM 2011?

Could be very likely. My ONLY gripe with the Avant Grands was they didn't have enough sounds...a string patch would have been nice, as well as pipe organ and some pads.

Of course, having Audio to USB recording would be very cool...I have it on my little PSR-S910 arranger/workstation, and it's on the CP-series, so I expect it's a natural for the AG.

Snazzy

Well, let's give it 5 years and see how it goes. My guess is that Yamaha will still be selling far more U series uprights than they will N2's or whatever the next generation will be.

Not on the CP1, at least. I wish it was. A useful feature.

I believe it is on the CP-5/CP-50, Lawrence...perhaps Dr. Popper can confirm it...or we could look in the on-line manual.

It is a very handy feature...I use it all the time on the PSR it records in Wav), plus you can even record vocals or another instrument (on the PSR) through the mic/line in.

Snazzy

I can vouch for Volusiano's claim because he and (I think it was) Dewster actually discouraged me from buying an AGN2 on a separate thread. In my case, I've got a CLP 990 with a very good action already, so I can wait a bit for the series to improve. But I must admit I really do want to try out the AG's.

-- so Chris, grand touch action matters a lot to me because I can't afford a grand. I think that's why a lot of us like DP's. The action on the DP I had before my CLP 990 was awful. I love my 990 but am very interested in seeing how it compares to the AG 2.