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#1411071 - 04/04/10 11:29 PM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N2 vs. similar priced Yamaha upright? [Re: FogVilleLad]
Dave Ferris Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 1675
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
.
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2005 NY Steinway D, Nord Piano 2

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#1411162 - 04/05/10 03:38 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N2 vs. similar priced Yamaha upright? [Re: Dave Ferris]
Volusiano Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/10
Posts: 770
To some people, pure acoustic sound is everything, and I totally respect that. But to many others, sound is only part of the equation and many other things are very important, too. Otherwise, the OP would have not bothered with his question here, and instead would have just gone straight to the (acoustic) Piano forum and asked for suggestion on which acoustic piano to buy.

So the heart of the DP vs AP debate is not about sound alone. It's about why, even at the expense of having not as good the sound, it's still an attractive option to people to make them want to consider the DP. And on top of that, a newer emerging question is when is the DP going to become "good enough" to be a viable alternative to the AP? And more specifically here, to the upright AP.

So with these questions in mind, I'd have to say that Yamaha has finally delivered a viable alternative in the N2 as a serious contender to acoustic uprights in its price range. It trumps the acoustic upright on almost everything, except maybe for sound. It's simple as that.

So the only question is what is more important to the OP? Sound and sound only? Or everything else (with pretty decent sound, mind you, just not the ultimate sound)?

And if people say "Oh, the N2 is way overpriced and expensive for what it can deliver as a DP". I'd say "Really? And $15K acoustic uprights are not expensive, too?" As least we know future DPs can only go down in price and only get better. Can the same be said about upright AP? Last I heard, people were worried about acoustic price increases coming up in the year.

And if people want to wait for a better/cheaper DP, more power to them and wait. Wait 3 to 5 years. Then wait 3 to 5 more years if you want. At least they have that option. Just don't use that as an excuse to buy an acoustic today. Buy an acoustic today because you want to buy an acoustic. Not because you're afraid that technology will always get better and cheaper and you don't want to be cheated by technology. How are you ever going to be cheated by something that you never plan to wait around to reap its benefits in the first place? You'd only be cheating yourself for using that excuse.

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#1411165 - 04/05/10 03:43 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N2 vs. similar priced Yamaha upright? [Re: Dave Ferris]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris
Quote:
When playing a DP we're always playing a recording of a piano. When listened to thru studio-quality 'phones - or perhaps a great sound system - that can be an enjoyable experience; but it's not the same thing as playing the actual piano. For ChrisH, this is an unsurmountable barrier.

This issue, IMO, is not resolvable. If people don't like something which isn't completely genuine, there's nothing which can be done about it.



Yeah, that's how I feel about it too.
...
There's something connected to the essence of music making, at least for what I do, when an Acoustic piano is involved. You throw the electronics into the mix and it just changes everything.

BTW, one of the nicest pianos I played a few years back was an upright. It was either a Bechstein Concert 8 or 10. In any case, it was unlike any upright I'd ever played before. 3hearts Of course with what you'd pay for it, you could probably get close to a new C7 on a great deal. Steinway makes a great but expensive upright too.


+1

Those who say that they would prefer for an acoustic-piano like playing experience a digital to any upright have probably not played a really nice upright from Grotrian, Seiler, Steingraeber, etc.


Edited by theJourney (04/05/10 03:44 AM)

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#1411195 - 04/05/10 04:56 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N2 vs. similar priced Yamaha upright? [Re: theJourney]
Chris H. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 2837
Loc: UK.
Volusiano, you are completely missing the point in every way.

On resale value: Of course that won't stop people buying technology, I never said that. I was just pointing out that changes in technology render old tech obsolete in no time at all. This means that anything older than a few years becomes worthless. In contrast the acoustic piano has not changed all that much. A 30 or 40 year old acoustic (upright or grand) will still fetch good money as long as it has been looked after and will continue to play perfectly well for years to come. Don't take my word for it, just take a look on ebay.

The grand like action seems to me to be nothing more than a gimmick. What's it for? You are playing a digital piano so why do you need the action of an acoustic piano? The piano action is a complicated thing with many moving parts. It's built the way it is because you need to be able to strike real strings with real hammers. It's not perfect on either a grand or an upright, it's just necessary. You could argue that the action of a regular DP is far superior because you can do away with all those parts.

The point about action is that it is used to control the sound. When I play any acoustic piano I will use the action to make it sing, roar, weep, sparkle etc. I can repond to the sound with subtle changes in touch. That's what music is all about, not repeating notes as fast as possible. The only time I really think about action is if it stops me doing what I want with the sound or if there is somethng wrong with it. This only happens on old pieces of junk which are as likely to be grands as uprights.
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#1411197 - 04/05/10 05:02 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N2 vs. similar priced Yamaha upright? [Re: Chris H.]
Chris H. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 2837
Loc: UK.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and here is mine on the original question:

It all depends on what you want to do with your piano.

If you have neigbours who would be disturbed by your piano playing then buy the N2.
If you spend most of your practice time playing silently through the night then buy the N2.
If you intend to record everything you play then buy the N2.
If you are a sucker for the latest tech and want to impress your mates with space age looks then buy the N2.

Of course you can do all this with a much cheaper DP.

If on the other hand you simply want to enjoy making music at the piano then buy a YUS3 (which I assume is around the same price as the N2).
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#1411201 - 04/05/10 05:21 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N2 vs. similar priced Yamaha upright? [Re: Chris H.]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Or...do all of the above and buy a YUS 3SG hybrid silent piano...which is a about a 1000 euros more expensive than the N2.
However, when you consider that you are getting an entire top of the line acoustic piano in addition to the digital functions for only 1000 euros then you realize what an incredibly good value it is in comparison to the very overpriced N2.

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#1411204 - 04/05/10 05:33 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N2 vs. similar priced Yamaha upright? [Re: theJourney]
Gerry Armstrong Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/31/08
Posts: 214
Loc: Cumbernauld, Scotland
Or you could do what I've done - I have an acoustic upright piano AND a digital piano.

I've never understood why so many people think it's an either or question. I'm happy to put up with the issues that come with both so I can have the advantages of both.
_________________________
Gerry Armstrong

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#1411205 - 04/05/10 05:41 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N2 vs. similar priced Yamaha upright? [Re: Gerry Armstrong]
Chris H. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 2837
Loc: UK.
Originally Posted By: Gerry Armstrong
Or you could do what I've done - I have an acoustic upright piano AND a digital piano.


Same here.
_________________________
Pianist and piano teacher.

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#1411207 - 04/05/10 05:44 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N2 vs. similar priced Yamaha upright? [Re: FogVilleLad]
EssBrace Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2328
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Yes I agree but why would someone with this mind set want to contribute to this particular forum? I mean if your starting position is that DPs are not a worthy means of expressing yourself musically it is just mischief to be on here stimulating artificial debate because there is nothing that will ever persuade him.

Steve
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1411211 - 04/05/10 05:54 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N2 vs. similar priced Yamaha upright? [Re: EssBrace]
Chris H. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 2837
Loc: UK.
EssBrace, I assume you are talking about me?

If this forum is all about the virtues of DP's then what's the point in the original question?

Someone asked:

'Yamaha AvantGrand N2 vs. similar priced Yamaha upright?'

For me the answer is very clear, I would choose the upright anytime. That doesn't mean I have anything against DP's. I own a DP and it has been extremely useful over the years. IMO Yamaha should focus on making great DP's and great acoustics rather than trying to merge the two.
_________________________
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#1411212 - 04/05/10 05:54 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N2 vs. similar priced Yamaha upright? [Re: EssBrace]
Karnevil Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/17/06
Posts: 154
Hi, OK, it seems like this thread develloped into a rather heated argument..

I forget to mention in the original post that this piano would be used for practicing, so a realistic keyboard action is crucial. Also, I play a lot of jazz, using harmonically dense/complex chords etc., and playing on a typical stage piano like CP300, RD700GX is just very unsatifying for me. I just can't connect with the instrument I'm playing. So far, digitals have disappointed me, but I was hoping that the N2 would actually be a viable alternative. My biggest problem, is that I usually will get impressed by the "next big thing", than after a while and playing the digital instrument some, all the flaws and lack of real connection and subtle details (compared to a acoustic piano) becomes more and more annoying.

I see here that there are two very seperate and different views of the N2. I will try to find one, and try it out myself. Thanks for the advices. Yeah, maybe I should ask the question in the AP forum too.. smile Thanks




Edited by Karnevil (04/05/10 06:06 AM)

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#1411213 - 04/05/10 05:57 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N2 vs. similar priced Yamaha upright? [Re: EssBrace]
John_B Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/17/10
Posts: 621
Loc: Bristol, UK
With all due respect to Karnevil, this thread is really a nonsense.

If the OP had wanted a balanced view he/she would have asked the question in the Piano forum [Edit] or Pianists forum. As it is he/she asked in the Digital forum and got the answer he/she wanted.


Edited by John_B (04/05/10 06:39 AM)

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#1411214 - 04/05/10 06:03 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N2 vs. similar priced Yamaha upright? [Re: Karnevil]
EssBrace Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2328
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Well in terms of technical tone generation the Yamaha CP1 family is better than AG, as is Roland Supernatural sound engine found in several of their more expensive models. But in terms of the playing experience (note - NOT through headphones), the AG must be some way ahead due to its tactile response system that aims to recreate the physical cabinet and soundboard resonance of an acoustic piano.

Steve
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1411215 - 04/05/10 06:08 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N2 vs. similar priced Yamaha upright? [Re: Chris H.]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: Chris H.
Originally Posted By: Gerry Armstrong
Or you could do what I've done - I have an acoustic upright piano AND a digital piano.


Same here.


Me too.

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#1411219 - 04/05/10 06:20 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N2 vs. similar priced Yamaha upright? [Re: Volusiano]
John_B Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/17/10
Posts: 621
Loc: Bristol, UK
Originally Posted By: Volusiano
Originally Posted By: John_B
For the price of an N2 you can probably get something like a Yamaha YUS5 or a Kawai K8 (at least in the UK).

The N2 retails for $15K while the YUS5 retails for $19.7K and its silent version (which is more apple to apple comparison to the N2) retails for $24.4K. The Kawai K8 retails for $18.2K as compared to the N2 retail of $15K.

So it's hardly comparable pricing and any of those 3 uprights cost a lot more than the N2.


I know you are a militant AvantGrand proponent but please give me some credit for not dreaming up prices off the top of my head.

In the UK N2 prices are not displayed on websites but in a local store it is priced at £8,000 (inc VAT, our sales tax) which, at the current exchange rate, is roughly equivalent to $12,000.

The YUS5 is advertised by a well known online/physical Yamaha supplier at £8,200.

The Kawai K8 is advertised on a different well known piano supplier's website as £9,200 "Phone for our price" - which implies the final price might well be nearer £8,000.

(The Kawai K6 is advertised on the same website as £7,400 (2 pedal version) "Phone for our price")

I note that the prices you use for the Yamaha and Kawai the same as manufacturer's suggested retail prices in Piano Buyer. Not what a buyer can actually expect to pay.

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#1411220 - 04/05/10 06:25 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N2 vs. similar priced Yamaha upright? [Re: Chris H.]
Volusiano Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/10
Posts: 770
Originally Posted By: Chris H.
Volusiano, you are completely missing the point in every way.

On resale value: Of course that won't stop people buying technology, I never said that. I was just pointing out that changes in technology render old tech obsolete in no time at all. This means that anything older than a few years becomes worthless. In contrast the acoustic piano has not changed all that much. A 30 or 40 year old acoustic (upright or grand) will still fetch good money as long as it has been looked after and will continue to play perfectly well for years to come. Don't take my word for it, just take a look on ebay.

Chris, I totally get your point, and I think you totally didn't get MY point. I'm saying that although your point might have been valid for the last few hundred years, it won't be valid anymore very quickly because something else has finally arrived that's going to make the acoustic piano obsolete very quickly.

I have a very expensive Minolta SLR film camera that is worthless today because digital SLRs with very high resolution have finally arrived in the market and made my camera worthless. When digital cameras just came out, they only had the cheaper point-and-shoot varieties with built-in lenses that was no competition to the full-size professional SLR cameras. But as soon as the digital SLRs came out with sufficient resolution to enable full-size photographs to be printed that look just as good as the film camera, and on top of that, enabled full use of interchangeable SLR professional lenses, it marked the death of film based SLR cameras almost overnight because finally, a viable alternative has arrived. The digital SLR camera killing the film SLR camera is a perfect analogy to make here. And I would say the (still analog) keyboard action is equivalent to the still analog SLR lenses. Once it came out, do you see anybody buying film SLR cameras on eBay anymore? Wait another 3 to 5 years and maybe you'll see the same demise of the acoustic upright happening, if not already.

Originally Posted By: Chris H.
The grand like action seems to me to be nothing more than a gimmick. What's it for? You are playing a digital piano so why do you need the action of an acoustic piano? The piano action is a complicated thing with many moving parts. It's built the way it is because you need to be able to strike real strings with real hammers. It's not perfect on either a grand or an upright, it's just necessary. You could argue that the action of a regular DP is far superior because you can do away with all those parts.

First of all, it's a total off-the-point distraction to ask why you need the action of an acoustic when you're playing a digital. You only do this because you can no longer argue that the N2 action is not the same (and inferior as implied) to the acoustic. So all of a sudden, you want to make the tradition acoustic action look bad to distract from not being able to say that the N2 action is inferior. It's as if, had the DP sound somehow can be 100% the same as an acoustic and nobody can tell the difference from a blind test, you might have posed the same question about the sound just to distract from the argument/comparison. All of a sudden, I might hear you say "You can argue that the sound of a regular DP is far superior..." by just replacing the word "action" with the word "sound" from your last sentence above.

Having said that, there is actually a new camp of thought thinking along the same line, that digital action doesn't need to mimic acoustic action and digital sound doesn't need to mimic acoustic sound. But that's not the discussion we're having here. The real discussion here is whether the state of the best DP right now is a close enough copy of the upright AP or not? So superiority is judged by how close the copy can be made in sound and action along with other important attributes.

As for calling the acoustic action complicated and not ideal and made only as a necessary design based on the acoustic layout of how it is needed to be made strike the strings, etc. I won't argue with you on that. The only comment I will make is that it's like a standard that's once already established, people are trained on it and you can't make people unlearn what they learned, no matter how efficient a new design can be. Such an example is the Qwerty keyboard. You don't see any computer manufacturers deviate from this on their new PCs or laptops, do you? So it is what it is, an established standard that's going to be hard to change. Otherwise, if you want to argue about the action, why not stop there and not argue about the keyboard layout and what else have you as well?

Originally Posted By: Chris H.
The point about action is that it is used to control the sound. When I play any acoustic piano I will use the action to make it sing, roar, weep, sparkle etc. I can repond to the sound with subtle changes in touch.

And the point I want to make about the action on the N2 is that you can use it to control the sound just the same way you do on an acoustic. You can still make it sing and roar and weep and sparkle all you want just the same and you won't feel any difference as if you played a grand acoustic Yamaha piano. Why can't you? It's the exact same action that Yamaha uses for their acoustic grand pianos.

Originally Posted By: Chris H.
That's what music is all about, not repeating notes as fast as possible.

Who said that music only is about repeating notes as fast as possible? Not me. You asked me what the difference is that made the grand action superior to the upright action and I just simply answered your question. If you don't care for this difference, then that's your opinion. Obviously many others think differently, enough for manufacturers to go to a lot of trouble to design the double escapement feature into the modern grand action. Enough for ALL manufacturers to follow suit and make it a standard on the grand piano. Enough to make a few manufacturers of very high end uprights to go to great lengths to mimic this escapement functionality into their products, despite it being not an easy and natural thing to do on an upright because they get no help from gravity to do it. Enough to make most piano teachers to want their students to upgrade from uprights to grand pianos.

Double escapement is not the only difference, albeit the main one. The grand action also tends to have longer keys, which enables better pivot positioning of the keys for better nuances in control as well.

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#1411223 - 04/05/10 06:39 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N2 vs. similar priced Yamaha upright? [Re: John_B]
Volusiano Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/10
Posts: 770
Originally Posted By: John_B
Originally Posted By: Volusiano
Originally Posted By: John_B
For the price of an N2 you can probably get something like a Yamaha YUS5 or a Kawai K8 (at least in the UK).

The N2 retails for $15K while the YUS5 retails for $19.7K and its silent version (which is more apple to apple comparison to the N2) retails for $24.4K. The Kawai K8 retails for $18.2K as compared to the N2 retail of $15K.

So it's hardly comparable pricing and any of those 3 uprights cost a lot more than the N2.


I know you are a militant AvantGrand proponent but please give me some credit for not dreaming up prices off the top of my head.

In the UK N2 prices are not displayed on websites but in a local store it is priced at £8,000 (inc VAT, our sales tax) which, at the current exchange rate, is roughly equivalent to $12,000.

The YUS5 is advertised by a well known online/physical Yamaha supplier at £8,200.

The Kawai K8 is advertised on a different well known piano supplier's website as £9,200 "Phone for our price" - which implies the final price might well be nearer £8,000.

(The Kawai K6 is advertised on the same website as £7,400 (2 pedal version) "Phone for our price")

I note that the prices you use for the Yamaha and Kawai the same as manufacturer's suggested retail prices in Piano Buyer. Not what a buyer can actually expect to pay.

John B, I never said you dreamed up the prices in your heads. But the only way to fairly compare prices is to talk list price vs list price (and yes, I got them from the Fine book). You can talk about advertised street prices but it's still not as meaningful because street prices change from locale to locale, let alone continent to continent.

If you insist on using street prices, the only thing I can say is that it looks like there's more discount off the retail prices on the acoustics you mentioned than on the N2. I wonder what that means? Maybe it means that the N2 is in higher demand than those acoustics in your locale, and perhaps that's why it's not discounted as heavily? Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm just trying to prove the point that there are so many factors that affect street prices that you can't take them at face values. The only street pricing that matters to the OP is the local pricing where the OP resides.

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#1411225 - 04/05/10 06:54 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N2 vs. similar priced Yamaha upright? [Re: Chris H.]
Melodialworks Music Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 1309
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Chris H.

Someone asked:

'Yamaha AvantGrand N2 vs. similar priced Yamaha upright?'

For me the answer is very clear, I would choose the upright anytime.


For me the answer is very clear. I would choose the DP anytime (and every time).
_________________________
Melodialworks Music
Yamaha C3X
Yamaha CP300 + Omnisphere
Yamaha NU1 + Production Grand

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#1411229 - 04/05/10 07:10 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N2 vs. similar priced Yamaha upright? [Re: Volusiano]
John_B Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/17/10
Posts: 621
Loc: Bristol, UK
Originally Posted By: Volusiano
... I'm just trying to prove the point that there are so many factors that affect street prices that you can't take them at face values. The only street pricing that matters to the OP is the local pricing where the OP resides.


It seems to me that you automatically discount or ignore anything that doesn't fit with your constantly repeated thesis that the AvantGrand is the be all and end all.

It isn't.

For some it might be the right answer. For others it won't.

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#1411231 - 04/05/10 07:19 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N2 vs. similar priced Yamaha upright? [Re: Volusiano]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: Volusiano
Chris, I totally get your point, and I think you totally didn't get MY point. I'm saying that although your point might have been valid for the last few hundred years, it won't be valid anymore very quickly because something else has finally arrived that's going to make the acoustic piano obsolete very quickly.

Chris and the rest of us have the luxury to be able to point to facts about the past and the present while you are pointing to your personal beliefs about the future.

Perhaps your beliefs are correct, but there is no overwhelmingly convincing evidence for any of us to join your religion.
Originally Posted By: Volusiano

I have a very expensive Minolta SLR film camera that is worthless today because digital SLRs with very high resolution have finally arrived in the market and made my camera worthless. When digital cameras just came out, they only had the cheaper point-and-shoot varieties with built-in lenses that was no competition to the full-size professional SLR cameras. But as soon as the digital SLRs came out with sufficient resolution to enable full-size photographs to be printed that look just as good as the film camera, and on top of that, enabled full used of interchangeable SLR professional lenses, it marked the death of film based SLR cameras almost overnight because finally, a viable alternative has arrived. The digital SLR camera killing the film SLR camera is a perfect analogy to make here. Once it came out, do you see anybody buying film SLR cameras on eBay anymore? Wait another 3 to 5 years and maybe you'll see the same demise of the acoustic upright happening, if not already.

SLR cameras may or may not be a useful case to compare to pianos. As you know, there are still shortcomings of digital when compared to film. Personally, I miss my Kodachrome 25. My SLR can still use it, but I can't get it. Acoustic pianos do not suffer from being dependent on complex products and processing infrastructure as film SLR cameras.

It is already true that the "result" of what an acoustic piano and a digital piano can produce on a recording can almost be equally convincing. However, the "user experience" of the player is and will remain very different. Also, the use of a digital piano in live performances is very different. As long as pianos are played by people for the inherent joy of playing and for performing, the acoustic will remain in demand.
Originally Posted By: Volusiano

And the point I want to make about the action on the N2 is that you can use it to control the sound just the same way you do on an acoustic. You can still make it sing and roar and week and sparkle all you want just the same and you won't feel a difference as if you played a grand acoustic Yamaha piano. Why can't you? It's the exact same action that Yamaha uses for their acoustic grand pianos.

The problem with your logic is highlighted.
There is more to a piano than the action.
By definition, the acoustic allows infinite gradations.
By definition, the discrete, sample based recordings played back on the AvantGrand speakers do not.

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#1411234 - 04/05/10 07:27 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N2 vs. similar priced Yamaha upright? [Re: John_B]
Volusiano Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/10
Posts: 770
Originally Posted By: John_B
Originally Posted By: Volusiano
... I'm just trying to prove the point that there are so many factors that affect street prices that you can't take them at face values. The only street pricing that matters to the OP is the local pricing where the OP resides.


It seems to me that you automatically discount or ignore anything that doesn't fit with your constantly repeated thesis that the AvantGrand is the be all and end all.

It isn't.

No sure why you said that because I only argue with what I don't agree with point by point. Your point specifically is on pricing and that's what I take issue with.

I never argue for the N2 on the merit of its sound compared to the acoustic sound. While I may have my own opinion that the N2 sound is good enough, I also said that I totally respect others' opinion if they prefer the acoustic sound and they prefer to place heavy weight on the sound. So how does that make me "automatically discount and ignore anything that doesn't fit ...."? And please show me anywhere on this thread where I said that the Avant-Grand is the be all and end all.

Originally Posted By: John_B
For some it might be the right answer. For others it won't.

You got no argument from me there. I'm not set out here to convince anybody to buy an Avant-Grand. We're all adults here and everybody knows what they want.

If this had been a generic DP vs AP debate with any DP thrown in the picture, I wouldn't have bothered chiming in because I'm fully aware of the basic DP's shortcomings in terms of both sound and action compared to APs. But the Avant-Grand is almost a different breed of DP, so when a thread like this, which is specific to the Avant-Grand, is started and opinions are expressed that I don't agree with as an owner of an N3, I just want to make my opinions known, too, even if it's in contention against other people's opinion and may rub them the wrong way. This is because I'm not just a random player who might have tried the AG a couple of two, three times from before. I've used the N3 for over 7 months now and I've known its capability and experienced what it has to offer fully well every single day.

So at the end of the day, everything is laid out and everybody's opinion is on the table, and the OP or any other readers can read and agree or disagree with anything anybody said here. I don't care to convince anybody to accept my answers. I just care to express my opinions just as you expressed yours. Sorry if we don't see eye to eye, but that's what debates are all about.

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#1411242 - 04/05/10 07:50 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N2 vs. similar priced Yamaha upright? [Re: Volusiano]
John_B Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/17/10
Posts: 621
Loc: Bristol, UK
Originally Posted By: Volusiano
I'm not set out here to convince anybody to buy an Avant-Grand.


Well, you've fooled me then!

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#1411263 - 04/05/10 08:35 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N2 vs. similar priced Yamaha upright? [Re: John_B]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: Volusiano
I'm not set out here to convince anybody to buy an Avant-Grand.



Mission accomplished.

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#1411298 - 04/05/10 09:48 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N2 vs. similar priced Yamaha upright? [Re: Volusiano]
snazzyplayer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 983
Loc: Earth
Originally Posted By: Volusiano


You got no argument from me there. I'm not set out here to convince anybody to buy an Avant-Grand. We're all adults here and everybody knows what they want.


Well, you must be careful, Volusiano, because it's quite obvious some people are very easily fooled, and would get the impression you were trying to influence them to buy an Avant Grand.

Having said that, I do share your enthusiasm for the exceptional N2/N3 and firmly believe they easily out-perform ANY upright piano, and rival many of the high end grand pianos.

Having an acoustic grand of fairly good name, and being able to compare the N3 with it, suffice to say, I'd choose the N3 for it's spectacular sound, and, of course, it's ease of maintenance (no tuning) and also it's ability to be recorded much easier.

We wouldn't want to fool anyone into buying something superior...they are even those here who rate instruments with a graphic illustration, rather than actually play them for themselves...either a sign of great inexperience, or perhaps, more likely, a lack of self-confidence in their own judgement and hearing.

There will always be supporters of acoustic uprights, but, their numbers decrease with each advance in the digital piano.

I await the next generation N-series, which is rumored to have some of the CP-series technology, as well as more voices and Audio to USB recording.

It's a great world we live in. Bravo Yamaha.

Snazzy
_________________________
Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)

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#1411303 - 04/05/10 09:54 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N2 vs. similar priced Yamaha upright? [Re: snazzyplayer]
sucroid Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/24/10
Posts: 37
Originally Posted By: snazzyplayer
[quote=Volusiano]

I await the next generation N-series, which is rumored to have some of the CP-series technology, as well as more voices and Audio to USB recording.

It's a great world we live in. Bravo Yamaha.

Snazzy


NAMM 2011? wink

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#1411307 - 04/05/10 10:01 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N2 vs. similar priced Yamaha upright? [Re: sucroid]
snazzyplayer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 983
Loc: Earth
Originally Posted By: polygon



NAMM 2011? wink


Could be very likely. My ONLY gripe with the Avant Grands was they didn't have enough sounds...a string patch would have been nice, as well as pipe organ and some pads.

Of course, having Audio to USB recording would be very cool...I have it on my little PSR-S910 arranger/workstation, and it's on the CP-series, so I expect it's a natural for the AG.

Snazzy
_________________________
Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)

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#1411336 - 04/05/10 11:06 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N2 vs. similar priced Yamaha upright? [Re: snazzyplayer]
Chris H. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 2837
Loc: UK.
Well, let's give it 5 years and see how it goes. My guess is that Yamaha will still be selling far more U series uprights than they will N2's or whatever the next generation will be.
_________________________
Pianist and piano teacher.

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#1411345 - 04/05/10 11:33 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N2 vs. similar priced Yamaha upright? [Re: snazzyplayer]
Melodialworks Music Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 1309
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: snazzyplayer

Of course, having Audio to USB recording would be very cool...I have it on my little PSR-S910 arranger/workstation, and it's on the CP-series, so I expect it's a natural for the AG.


Not on the CP1, at least. I wish it was. A useful feature.
_________________________
Melodialworks Music
Yamaha C3X
Yamaha CP300 + Omnisphere
Yamaha NU1 + Production Grand

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#1411374 - 04/05/10 12:08 PM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N2 vs. similar priced Yamaha upright? [Re: Melodialworks Music]
snazzyplayer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 983
Loc: Earth
Originally Posted By: Melodialworks Music
Originally Posted By: snazzyplayer

Of course, having Audio to USB recording would be very cool...I have it on my little PSR-S910 arranger/workstation, and it's on the CP-series, so I expect it's a natural for the AG.


Not on the CP1, at least. I wish it was. A useful feature.


I believe it is on the CP-5/CP-50, Lawrence...perhaps Dr. Popper can confirm it...or we could look in the on-line manual. blush

It is a very handy feature...I use it all the time on the PSR it records in Wav), plus you can even record vocals or another instrument (on the PSR) through the mic/line in.

Snazzy
_________________________
Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)

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#1411590 - 04/05/10 04:11 PM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N2 vs. similar priced Yamaha upright? [Re: John_B]
nan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/12/04
Posts: 140
Loc: San Francisco
Originally Posted By: John_B
Originally Posted By: Volusiano
I'm not set out here to convince anybody to buy an Avant-Grand.


Well, you've fooled me then!


I can vouch for Volusiano's claim because he and (I think it was) Dewster actually discouraged me from buying an AGN2 on a separate thread. In my case, I've got a CLP 990 with a very good action already, so I can wait a bit for the series to improve. But I must admit I really do want to try out the AG's.

-- so Chris, grand touch action matters a lot to me because I can't afford a grand. I think that's why a lot of us like DP's. The action on the DP I had before my CLP 990 was awful. I love my 990 but am very interested in seeing how it compares to the AG 2.

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