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I would also like to know. (Apparently we don't "all know" - though I'm not sure I'm going to like the answer.)

This has been my experience with adult students too.

Nguyen, Legal Beagle, jotur and currawong,

You missed my point entirely. Apparently I was too subtle. I thought I was using a sledge hammer backed up by a freight train. If you go back and read the entire thread, I think you may be enlightened. If you read the thread and still think I am the problem, I suggest that you read it again. Brownie points to the first one that figures it out.

Elissa

“The way you wrote sounds as if teachers had to earn your respect in the first place.”

No I never said or suggested that. Although I didn’t say it exactly, I was saying that I did not respect bad teachers.

“I would go so far to say that it is a rare thing indeed for a student who has commenced with an attitude of disrespect to change that attitude at any fundamental level.”

Wow. I would go so far as to say that teachers who don’t expect or strive to make a difference for students who are in need of some attitude improvement probably rarely will.

Biff

Dear Biff,

I had indeed read the whole thread.

So, you were interpreting the comments? It might have been easier, had you not said "I agree" each time? Or, if you had sighed at the end of your post? Something else that said "Boy, are these extreme statements IMHO"?

Or am I still wrong.

Don't need the brownie points, tho. Too fat as it is

Cathy

jotur,

Congratulations. I am curious. You were offended by my culture comment but not the culture comment I seemed to be agreeing with?

Biff

Biff - I sent you a pm.

I have been known to have some disagreements here at PW :), but haven't had a lot of time since the first of the year. I didn't read the original of the culture quote quite as strongly as you did (I read it more as the culture of the particular family, and while I don't see any way to know that that was the case, I didn't see it as a reference to a larger group), altho there was some eyebrow lifting on my part at a couple of posts.

There was also some good information and ideas here, too. But I'm trying to pick my battles these days

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Cathy

"Peace and love, peace and love." -- Ringo Starr, philosopher, trend setter, all around bitchin' dude

Still too subtle, I'm afraid, so I guess I don't get the brownie points. But I certainly read Elissa's post as meaning the culture of the individual family. I really don't know what you thought she meant.

I have no idea how anyone could take me as referring to anything beyond the culture of raising kids to not be polite. And I have no idea *what* possible other reference there could be, so I'm fascinated to hear what I had in mind.

The OP clearly took a caring approach to her student from the start and was surprised by the determination of the student to resist instruction/suggestion, and so, being a good teacher, took any number of contingencies into account, but still the same response. On discussing the situation with the parent it turned out there there were contributing factors from the family (a culture of praising even the most basic achievement as exceptional) and that this was an ongoing pattern in the child (resisting being shown how to do anything she couldn't already do well, and not responding well to positive adult influence in this educational part of her life).

The family could have made a huge difference in this situation by educating their child as to what a one-on-one lesson is about, how to behave, what is and is not acceptable, what to expect from the time spent at the piano, and so on.

Of course teachers can make an enormous difference, but pretending that students aren't rude won't help the teacher to do so, and pretending that any problem in the lesson is due to the teacher's lack of commitment, focus or talent will also do nothing to further the student's progress. Beyond this, it's optimistic in the extreme to think that teachers can save humanity. Sometimes their influence really does reach this kind of life-changing proportion, but really good teachers often just deliver really good teaching, not redemption, rehabilitation and restoration wrapped into one.

Addressing behavioural issues is sometimes about making sure kids feel accepted and safe, valued and welcomed, and sometimes it's about doing all of the above while also saying "That's just not OK". This is one of those times.

Biff, if you had read the entirety of the posts (not just mine) that look at the unacceptable nature of this student's behaviour you would have seen all kinds of positive observations and/or suggestions. I may very well be your kind of gal, but I have no idea what kind of a person you are at all - I'm awaiting an update on the culture to which I was referring before being able to reach a conclusion on that front.

Biff, my sincere apologies for missing your sarcasm entirely. I'm obviously not the only one, so I don't feel tooooo stupid.

The problem, of course, is that there are a number of folks hanging around here who would write things just like that and mean them.

"I've never dropped a student before, but think perhaps we are just not the right fit. I would love some input on what you would do or have done in this type of situation."

Funny thing, I just recently read Robert Louis Stevenson's classic study of the monstrous, muderous, and evil personality of Mr. Hyde, which overpowers the good and wonderful Dr. Jekyl's, though the agency of a powerful and exotic drug, unknown to science.

I kept waiting through the thread, to see when the Dr. Jekyl aspect of this music student was going to show up... and I'm still waiting. To boil it down, I see a frightened and clueless kid who needs to be taken in hand, and a frightened and clueless teacher who doesn't know how to make it happen.... probably, with frightened and clueless parents to back it up. "A Child's Garden of Pathology."

So, depressingly but accurately, I think the OP answered her own question in the very first post, throwing out a slight red herring about "I've never dropped a student before," which I guess either means nothing, or else it means that the teacher is apologizing for her own inexperience.

And the winner is: (1) Shove it off on someone else, (2) watch a few episodes of "Judge Judy," or, (3) try to see the frightened kid who is "speaking" through her behavior and begging to be shown that someone cares enough to set limits, stick with her, and show her how to do something besides fail again.

These people can grow up to be horrors--- wait til this one gets hit with a good surge of estrogen; you'll see her in the supermarket with the same roadshow one of these days, plus a kid in the shopping cart and one or two toddling behind.

It well could be that the teacher is right, and that it's too late already; the momentum may already be too great. Or, it could be that that the moment is just exactly ripe. If we're going to be reading the classics, a good one for teachers is Frances Gray Patton's "Good Morning, Miss Dove."

Maybe I'm all wrong... Mae West used to say, "Never marry a man to reform him--- that's what reform schools are for."

Jeff Clef,

I love your post! It's so clear to me that you love your reading time as much as you love your piano. I just delight in the references you make to something that literature. I treasure your reminders and it all comes back - just to hear the "Good Morning, Miss Dove" mentioned create the impact of what you are advising with just a quiet mention of a book (or it's movie) to us.

I'm usually wondering what books you are reading this week! I'm a big reader too, several books going at once, but you make use of what you have read in the most clever of ways and apply them to human predicaments and human ailings.

You've got me wondering what else Mae West said!

Betty

Here is a suggestion from a "mean old lady" who does not have the energy to waste figuring out WHY someone is misbehaving, and just wants it to STOP.

I would, very nicely, explain to her at the beginning of the next lesson, the behavior I REQUIRE and the behavior I FORBID (don't let her sit at the piano. Make her sit somewhere else and give you her full attention while you go over this). Tell her that this is how she must behave if she wants to stay in my studio.

See, cause I'm old and tired I don't really care WHY someone is misbehaving. It costs me no less energy to deal with misbehavior just because there is some 'deep seated reason' for it.

I would tell her that I am paying her the compliment of having high standards for behavior during lessons as well as playing the piano. It is up to her to decide whether she wants to stay, and behave appropriately if the decision is "yes."

ONLY when she has agreed to the standards of behavior, and accepts that she will have to leave immediately if she doesn't meet them, does the lesson start. Make her reiterate each requirement.

If and when she acts inappropriately (***at the first sigh or whatever***) stop the lesson immediately and boot her butt out the door and tell her if it happens again it will be the last time she steps in your studio. AND MEAN IT. If that does not shock sense into her you are better off refusing to keep her.

My guess is that a lot of this is an act she's putting on because she feels embarrassed or awkward.

Prodigal Pianist!

A teacher with a "hickory stick" and not afraid to use it?

Yes, the bottom line is our tolerance. There is nothing wrong with setting standards in our piano studios.

"Because I'm old and tired" would work for me because it's true chronologically, but inside, I'm as spirited and ready as I ever was to teach a lesson. But, the rocking chair does call my name from time to time.

If no other reason can be found - and I came up with a lot of possibilities for the cause myself - "Because I said so!" and "What part of 'No!' do you not understand?" are complete messages. If we were to say it emphatically when we were feeling that way, what would be the result? Teachers don't wait long enough for the students response if it's not immediately said. Teachers keep talking, I think.

Say it, stop talking, and let the message drop on the student's and the parent's conscience where it belongs. No lesson until the behavior problem is acknowledged, discussed, an agreement made, or release from lessons occurs.

Time and energy become shorter and shorter as we age in this profession. We should preserve ourselves for the best situations in teaching we can create. Music and our homes and studios are our sanctuaries in which live and work - our domains.

Do we want to be part of the problem or part of the solution?

We just have to "mean" what we say!

Betty

Same here Biff. My apology!

There are obviously, as Legal Beagle states, some of these going on around here. Though my brain can definitely use a light bulb or two during these busy quarter ends, you get the idea why once in awhile we react to these kind of comments a bit strong.

Not to defend my carelessness but even if one goes through the whole thread during lunch and breaks in our busy day, he/she would probably still miss the hidden sarcasm.

I’m glad I spoke up and sound stupid now, than keep quiet and think you’re the bad guy.

Shake hands?

I don't see any problem with you or Irenev dropping a student for whatever reason but ...



... but this is just ridiculous.

No problem. But ...



... but what the heck is that? Your standards are yours, they have nothing to do with her, and are not a compliment. That is just moralistic blackmail.

ISBN 9780884118794

It was actually scary to see how long this book has been out of print, though used book sellers carry it at somewhere around twenty times the price of the paperback edition I used to have. The library might be a better bet; it is not the kind of volume thieves or book-banners go after.

As I thought over it, I remembered the scene in which a suitor lost his temper with Miss Dove because she was so stubborn and exasperating. She told him, severely, "If you wish my attention, you must employ a civil tone."

He had just offered to marry her. Not to mention that it would have taken a very large load of trouble off her shoulders. It seems to me the movie was actually quite good; much less of a hack job than novels typically suffer. Jennifer Jones, right? And a virgin right through to the closing credits; something else you don't much see in films these days. Yet, in the hospital after a risky surgery, she spoke to Chuck Connors, a (straight, single) policeman, about another (trampy) former student of hers (also single--- now), who had been her practical nurse: "She was a competent and caring nurse," said Miss Dove. She thought for a moment, and added, "She was genteel."

(Yes, he did marry her. What is a checkered past compared to Miss Dove's given word on the subject.)

Judge Judy does not turn such an elegant phrase, though I guess she gets the job done when she barks out, to litigants who try to argue or talk over her, "I'm SPEAKING. That means, when I talk, you don't talk."

You know, I think it's too soon for this young piano teacher to give up. How could she hold up her head, knowing that she'd been overmatched by a twelve-year-old girl in just two weeks? Some people, you just have to handle them as if they just fell out of the sky. We are talking about a half-hour once a week, right--- is that so unbearable? Well, raise your rates till it is bearable. Teach the parents a lesson while you're at it.

You're not licked till you're licked.

Thanks for your kind words, Betty. Since you ask, I'm reading a book about owls, with one about grizzly bears waiting its turn. Recently, an excellent biography of Rachmaninoff (poker parties and speedboat rides--- could you believe it--- during the summer breaks at his country home), a fair one (not really a biography; one of those "Cambridge Companion To" books) on Debussy; a bit heavy on the stomach. "The Anza Expedition and the Settling of California," interesting, astonishing, and very well-written.

Waiting their turn: Charles Rosen, "The Romantic Generation," and C.P.E. Bach, "Essay on the True Art," both started and set aside as worthwhile but too heavy going for the time, and a bunch of those B&N reprint editions of classics whose copyrights have expired. I thought I'd give Gogol's "Dead Souls" a try; it's supposed to be a comedy, and I have a few by Twain and Dumas. These last are worthwhile but surprisingly readable; they were their day's equivalent of the mini-series.

As for what Mae West had to say, it's worth a Google. Very smart, that one. It's true she became a caricature of herself toward the end of her very long life, but I haven't read that she complained about it. That alone is food for thought.

Betty, Jeffclef, Prodigal, I am once again so grateful for all this wonderful input and advice. Betty, thanks for all the contributions to this great thread. Jeff, I love your post, but let me just say that I am not a young, new, inexperienced teacher. I've taught privately (thus, get to pick and choose my own students) for 10 years, took a break and returned last year to a situation where students are "assigned." I have the right to refuse students, but for numerous reasons, I do not want to give up on any student, however, I've had many challenges. About 80% of my students are under 7 and are all, but one, transfer students (some of them already having gone through 3 teachers!). I have "the next American Idol", adults who just want a crash course in piano. It's been a wildly challenging and wonderful experience for me, accompanied with much angst, reading, and posting. lol. I want to post an update under a new thread so I will be sure that all the wonderful teachers/students who posted their invaluable responses will know there is an update to this. Jeff, the Dr. Jeckyl side slightly emerged at this last lesson. Prodigal, I just am laughing in agreement with everything you've said. I am getting way too old for this nonsense. Student comes in for second lesson, decides she knows it all, plays while I talk, insists on just playing two songs, interrupts, sighs, throws herself on the piano in annoyance and outright refuses to follow anything I ask her to do (a simple request such as starting on the last measure and working out a mistake together). It was exhausting and stressful. I am not a psychiatrist, although I'd be making a ton more money per hour if I'd gone that direction. I am a piano teacher. I've never been stern or tough, but I am learning quickly that the nice, friendly teacher approach may not necessarily work for all students. In this case, I intend to follow Prodigal's advice, as well as that of a few others on this thread the instant the Dr. Hyde behavior emerges.

... but what the heck is that? Your standards are yours, they have nothing to do with her, and are not a compliment. That is just moralistic blackmail. [/quote]

No, it's not.

Too many kids these days are used to getting away with murder (sometimes literally) because "they can't help it" or "they don't know any better" or some other "poor thing we can't expect as much from them". And that's crap.

This kid does not need anyone to feel sorry for her or make excuses for her because of some thing in her background or personality. It's an insult to her intelligence and capability.

Believing someone is capable of meeting high standards has always been taken as a compliment in my experience.

Kids aren't dumb. They know when people let them get away with less than their best...or even less than their 'average'! They don't respect people who let them slide. And, deep down, they know the people don't think very highly of them.

My "standards" are nothing more than a baseline for acceptable polite behavior for a child who is having lessons with an adult teacher. They have *everything* to do with her and if she does not know that now and is allowed to keep acting this way, she is in for a rude awakening at some point in her life.

I am not a piano teacher but I have been a substitute teacher many times in band and chorus classes, so I do know about discipline. And kids who will test boundaries.