I work in a music store and a new student came in for the first lesson. Student is 12 and seemed really excited about getting her first book, which always causes my heart strings to pull. I am using the PA Primer since she had no music background at all. I noticed her demeanor and attitude was a bit surprising during the first 1/2 hour lesson. She seemed annoyed when I would try to present the exciting new concepts, didn't follow my directions (for ex. pointing out black key patterns, keyboard geography, finger shape, arm relaxation, etc.). The second lesson left me frustrated and fatigued. She tried to control the lesson (I'm sure you know what I mean) and kept insisting on playing the one song she knew "by ear". If she played a rhythm incorrectly and I tried to show her how to correct it, she would not cooperate. She would sigh every time I asked her to do something, lay across the keys in annoyance, play while I tried to talk, and basically was very uncooperative. I finally asked her very calmly and sincerely: "------ do you want to take piano lessons?" She then complained it was so hard. It seems to me that she is only interested in playing songs she is familiar with, albeit incorrectly, and is resistant to learning. I've never dropped a student before, but think perhaps we are just not the right fit. I would love some input on what you would do or have done in this type of situation.

I would definitely have a talk with the student and the parent together. So that you are all on the same page. One cannot work miracles if a student doesn't want to do what is correct. I would explain I want music to be fun and exciting but there is a responsibility on the part of the student and parent that involves cooperation and discipline and if that is not something that they think is possible maybe you aren't quite the right fit. Or you have the option to tell them would you rather just pay me to listen to your daughter play and not worry about teaching her since she doesn't seem to want to learn or cooperate? Then you will probably have to be very patient and innovative if they choose to continue.

Hi Roxy, thanks for the quick answer. I like both of your possible solutions. Would you discuss this before the next lesson in person or call the Mom prior to the next lesson? I think the student might be quite embarrassed if I wait until the lesson and discuss this with the mom in front of her. You know how pre-teens are.

She sounds insecure and wants to hear the WOW - you did great learning that piece all on your own....

I would say the above. Not that you played well, but that you did a wonderful job exploring and actually figuring out the notes of the piece or some such thing of praise.

Then DROP THAT PIECE!

And you control the lesson. You are the teacher.

Let's see what we can learn today - this week. I have something exciting for you to do. Then make sure what you show her IS exciting!

I often use for adults and teenagers something as simple as learning the C triad arpeggio. First as blocked chords (5 minutes) up the keyboard. Then as broken chords (a few times through). Then with pedal with appropriate explanation. Voila, something that sounds important and can be worked on during the week with your instructions how to make it better.

I then add F G in the following lessons.

None of this needs books, reading etc - just fun at the piano while also learning.

Once you win over her confidence, I'll bet that she will settle in and do well.

It is a difficult age for some and they at times need praise and coddling (sp)

Good luck!

In a similar situation, I talked with the mom and expressed concerns. And later, I found it necessary to confront the student again, asking her if she even realized what she was doing. (Contradicting or negating everything I said.) It did help.

However, I also believe something similar to what lilylady said - That this girl needed praise and success. The way I gave it to her was by giving her lighter, easier lessons for awhile, spending a lot of the lesson on mastery, and making a big deal out of the successes.

For the first couple months, I dreaded her lessons. But it's been five months now, and she's doing really well.

I'm all for flexible lessons, but I can't tolerate rudeness or non-compliance, which is what I was dealing with, and what I think you're dealing with. Praise by itself isn't enough. I need to set limits, and reach an understanding about acceptable behavior.

Thanks Lollipop & Lilylady. I didn't go into detail, but I was very complimentary on the first piece. I was quite surprised that she'd learned it, since it was well into the Primer. Then she continued to want to return to that piece, talking over me, being absolutely the rudest student I've ever encountered. Then we came to Ode to Joy, and she said she knew that. Turns out those two pieces were the only ones she wanted to play since they were familiar to her and could she could play by them by ear. The rhythm was incorrect and I continued to go over the measures in various ways until she played it correctly, at which point I was hugely complimentary. It's difficult to imagine that there is anything she will be receptive to. I will speak to the mom if the next lesson goes the same way.

I'm not a piano teacher but I have been a high school teacher and have trained people in the lab where I work. It sounds to me like she's a perfectionist with a cripplingly high anxiety level, so afraid of failure that she's resistent to even attempting to learn anything new. I have no idea how you, as her piano teacher, can address that. It's probably affecting just about every aspect of her life.

I've had students just like this, and it's a personality thing. They are as rude in every learning situation, but it really comes to the fore when it's a one-on-one scenario, like a piano lesson; in classroom situations quite often they can think/behave in a somewhat dismissive manner without the teacher necessarily being completely aware of the extent to which the child believes the teacher has nothing of value to contribute.

ON THE OTHER HAND: these kids are often super bright and bubbly personalities, almost precocious in their social fluency, and with a great confidence in themselves in a social (not intellectual/academic) setting. This generally means they love doing things with other people, and do not thrive in pursuits as solitary as learning the piano.....

So, maybe some duet work (the student and yourself) might be a way of making the learning more social (where the child has greatest ease) and less academic (where they feel stressed/disinterested). And obviously the rote learning approach is the one that will most interest your student - so it could be worth discussing with the parents to what extent they want the lessons to instill a love of music and to what extent they want the lessons to instill an ability to read music.....

But I have certainly felt your pain myself....and you have my empathy!!

I think it's about the student expecting to touch the keyboard and have great sounds and rhythms come out from her creativity and that it's a disappointment for her to find out how much thinking and planning and knowing goes into the mix of playing the keyboard using the music score. The teacher talking and the music page giving instruction is not what she was expecting to do.

Try teaching in a way that produces short tunes and sound that is fulfilling - something that relates to ears coming awake and the spirit moving. Yes, I know we start with instruction of "how to's and we seek accuracy and repetition to drill responses into our student's heads.

I think she needs to touch, feel, respond to learn. That does not necessarily mean teach her to play by ear. But, if she is a "creator" by nature, being in the "follower's" seat is probably like putting a strait jacket on her.

She needs to feel the jolt of excitement. I really believe that the first books used have to create excitement in what they allow the student to do in their early days of instruction. I use precharts written in their simplest form of piano locations (yes a position) and fingering and holding notes for longer duration as marked with hyphens (-) to show increased length. All of the notes are written to flow along in TA (quarter notes - steady beat) with ti-ti's through whole notes being the note values.

My set of beginning music includes: Happy Birthday, Bingo, The Wheels on the Bus, Do Your Ears Hang Low, Morning Has Broken, Aura Lee, Found a Peanut, long etc. By the time we have had 10 lessons, all the basics have been covered that you are concerned about teaching.

The only thing I do to start a student is to label their finger numbers and hands RH/LH 1 2 3 4 5, and do the groups of 2 and 3 black notes to label keyboard letter names and then some finding across the keyboard of all A's in octaves through G's. 8 A's, 8 B's, 8 C's, and then 7 of D, E, F, G. That is enough to get started on the pre-chart reading. From here everything you would teach by concept through elementary level is going to be "seen/heard/felt" while playing from pre-charts. Gradually we introduce the printed music page to demonstrate what we have accomplished in this song.

So the feel, the sound, the experience come first and then we transfer it to the printed page. Whole songs based on childhood music and folk music are enjoyed, along with the lyrics telling a story which helps me teach phrasing, articulation of syllables, vowels and consonants weight (accents) on the keyboard. Imagination and adventure take over with the kids on songs like this as a start and I feel that it is a very good, natural entry to starting the conversation about what we have to know to make music. So many things are already known to our students, we just have to introduce the idea and they can run with it. I call my method "Piano Power" because that's exactly the result it gets. It empowers the student to play the piano from the beginning. Very little in the way of explanation is needed and they are easily launched because of their innate "GO!" power they already possess.

I hate it when the challenges and obstacles that students are feeling are the first things we see from them. First of all, it's reflective of their real emotional state at the present moment, but also because their obstacles cause us to be concerned about our teaching abilities with them. I hate it when their get up and go got up and went! It feels like a big disconnect. And, it can be prevented.

Betty

I have been thinking about this and would like to give a student perspective, given that at 12 she is no longer a small child. Since she already came in playing, it means that she taught herself and formed an impression of what learning to play means. She has no idea that a different kind of reality can exist. What she came into, roughly, is similar to when we hear music, we learn to sing it and we have the whole thing. that is how most untrained people sing. It is direct and instant. For real music making we get into the subtleties of touch, how to approach in instrument (with piano - orienting along the keyboard's patterns, touch) or approach to music (meter, timing, rhythm). She does not hear that she is off in her timing, and so your demands seem unreasonable and a waste of time. She thinks that learning to play means learning the next piece and the next. For her to accept what you are doing, it first has to make sense for her. She has to enter your reality more. That is a huge shift in perspective.

Secondly there is the issue of failure and difficulty. If she happens to be bright and precocious or gifted, then struggling to achieve things will be foreign to her. The piano pedagog Martha Beth wrote about this. Even without that, there is a reality that you know about as a teacher who worked through the stages of piano learning long ago, that she doesn't know about. This reality is that in the beginning we are relatively incapable. That is what learning is about - becoming capable. We do small steps, and after a year we are suddenly capable of what we couldn't do before, and have no idea how that happened. Weaknesses are not scary for you, but they are scary for a self-aware student - age 12 is the age of self-awareness where you see the big picture. The best thing to do is to block it out, no hear someone's critique, or their directions in these "useless" things. Does she know that you are building skills for her? In addition to probably not knowing what piano playing is about (first paragraph)?

The small child is in the moment. You give him an activity, and "cool!" - he does it out of curiosity. Then the next activity and the next. You are building his skills without him even being aware of it. The older person may wonder what it is all about and where it fits in. So they resist. If they came to play music instantly, then your focus on timing and other matters is irrelevant to what they think it's about.

Fascinating discussion. It does sound like this girl has some emotional difficulties, and it could be that piano lessons will be a forum in which she can become more comfortable with herself and others-- or not. But I think we're missing something here. The girl is RUDE. I don't care what else is going on, nobody has the right to abuse another person like this. If she's 12 she's old enough to know better. You, as the teacher, absolutely do not need to put up with her "talking over" you or other inappropriate behavior. "Laying across the keys in annoyance" is totally beyond the pale! Would you put up with this if you were teaching her in school? If you were her mom? I'm sure you wouldn't. And neither would her future college teachers or employers. Or friends, or lovers. She's going to have some major problems if she continues like this.

(It may be that she is already identified with some special-ed type diagnosis and there is already some plan in place for dealing with her antisocial behavior. If you talk to the mom, you may be told something like that. Or the mom may be clueless and letting the daughter walk all over her. Don't know till you start a conversation.)

I'm not saying you can instantly stop her from doing these things, but why not try to establish some ground rules? "Here's how it is. When you talk, I listen. When I talk, you listen." Period. Stating your expectations to both the student and the parent is perfectly reasonable. You can TRY, anyway.

My heart goes out to you. I've had some lulus in my time, but I don't think they were ever quite at this level.

Elene

Yes, Elene, I thought of special needs also, because of the rudeness, but that is not known in the moment.

A girl at age 12 can still be clinging to childhood, or could be advancing physically to look the age of 22 via her attire and cosmetics, we don't know.

There are so many clues that students give us, it's wise to keep an alert eye open to where she/he exists in her/his world at this time.

I think we can get quite weary when students present their resistance to us before we see any other traits.

Ushering students into productivity is quite the art and it gives us opportunity to increase our teaching skills with each new success. However, until it is deemed that progress is being made, we certainly hold the outcome in our hands in trying to reach our students and make something good of their launching into music.

Irenev and others are right to bring it into discussion and look for feedback, ideas, and understanding. We all learn by sharing and responding.

One of the things that used to annoy me was that parents would provide sugary snacks in the car on the way to lessons and that alone created things that could blow your mind during one short half hour. If I think this is happening, I now jump on asking the parent about the child's last hour or two before lessons. My waterloo one year was that a well meaning parent filled the carpool she was driving from church to recital with a quick tour of the local donut show to "hold them" until lunch after the recital. Six kids on sugar high all at once. This is where I started being concerned about snacks before lessons or recitals. Learning the hard way, of course.

Lots of things can contribute to the problems or successes of any length of time we are with our students.

Again giving the kid the benefit of the doubt for a moment, she could possibly have some weird behavior due to a food allergy or some other biochemical issue-- including hormonal changes at that age. The sugar issue Betty mentioned is a good example, and can be a pretty big deal for kids, acting like a stimulant drug. I remember that when my daughter and her friends were in 5th grade, for a while they would eat a spoonful of sugar specifically for the high. At least they weren't doing anything worse-- and at least they did recognize that sugar had effects they didn't necessarily want on a regular basis!

If she tries to act appropriately but can't, then it's a symptom. But this doesn't sound like what's going on here. Just thought I'd mention it, just in case.

Elene

I decided to ask my husband, who teaches special ed and spent many years as a private woodwind teacher and band director, what he'd do. I was able to e-mail him while he was at lunch, and here's his reply:

"Hmm!
Don't let her sit at the piano.
Seat her as the audience and present the new lesson as to an audience, kind of like cross or self talk. She is just observing. Play and model. she can then play her piece get some positive feedback then leave. Limit her access. She will get what she wants out of it or quit. Eventually increase access."

Not something I would have thought of.

Elene

This sounds like a learning difference to me. Could be that she has trouble processing spoken instructions - which might explain why she is talking over you = perhaps to drown you out because she won't get what you say anyway? I would talk to the mother and see if there's any kind of special assessment or special ed already going on in school. If not, I think she needs it. She is not trying to be difficult. She may not even know what "rude" means when you tell her that she is being "rude". A lot of children with seemingly difficult personalities have learning difficulties and have unfortunately over the years learned to make up for them through seemingly anti/un-social behaviour.

I like the idea of setting very strict guidelines, spelled-out, written down if that seems to help.

An excellent book on the subject is Dr. Greenspan's book "The Challenging Child" - I recommend it to all of my parents, whether their children are "difficult" or not. It certainly opened my mind.

Another resource is Rick Lavoie's "How difficult can this be?" where he takes parents and educators through exercises which make them experience what a child with a learning difference is going through each day. It affects not only their learning but also eventually their personality because of the daily frustration from knowing that they try but still don't get it. One of the parents was in tears when she wasn't able to accomplish a seemingly easy task because part of the information was missing. The videos in this series are very very expensive but your public library should have a copy of this video.

Hope you can make it work!

This time round I'm asking that my previous post be given consideration, especially since this has moved to speculation on the psychological and emotional problems. It may be something much simpler.

This sugar/hyperactivity link has yet to be proven scientifically. At least 12 peer reviewed studies have disproved it. Even though it's anathema to internet fora, I've posted a citation from a reputable source.

MedNet article

KZ

I don't think the idea was to suggest a link between sugar and hyperactivity but a link between sugar and a temporary sugar-high.

Very interesting article. I'm with Betty, though, that I have seen students arrive all sugared up for lessons and they bounce off the walls and exhibit weird behavior as in the subject line of this thread. These same students arrive to lessons without sugary snacks after school (upon my request) and they are much calmer and able to focus. Parents have substituted water for sugary drinks in these cases. Perhaps it's the water and not the sugar that's affecting them, I don't know.

Funnily enough, children/adolescents from cultures who have a deep respect for teachers never exhibit the behaviours listed in the OP. It's a cultural issue for sure: she has been raised to be rude. She genuinely doesn't think you have anything of significance to offer her, and that's because she has no respect for teachers as much as anything else - otherwise it would have taken longer for this rudeness to manifest (like at least two/three weeks).

Much as it is tempting to save the world, save yourself. This kind of rudeness on an ongoing basis is utterly demoralising, and life is hard enough.

Wow, you are spot on with that conclusion! I finally decided to call the mom and chat with her about the lesson experiences. I prefaced it by telling the mom that I was very touched by her excitement to get her first piano book, but the lessons turned out to be the opposite experience. I went into detail about the body language, sighing, refusal to play anything or try anything presented other than the two songs she knew how to play. Mom said this was her pattern in life in everything she attempts to do, including school. Everything is too hard, and she gives up easily. Without going into detail, we both agreed to give her another month. I said that I felt she had potential and in combination with her love for music, she was about halfway there to success but that the other half required discipline, practice and commitment to learn new things. I then told the mom I felt she probably had very high expectations of herself and expected immediate success and felt angry and frustrated when success didn't happen quickly. Her mom was in full agreement. Thank you for your input and wish me luck!

I would put a lot of effort in trying to connect with the kid. Nothing fake, just take a real interest. Maybe ask her what she likes and doesn't like outside of the piano world. Find something that you have in common with her and talk about it. And ask her about how her day went.

When she does something well, let her know it. Don't exaggerate, just praise when you can. And explain to her that learning piano takes time and that you had a lot of trouble when you started (whether you did or not).

Most teachers know their material, even most of the bad ones. The best teachers motivate kids who would otherwise not be motivated.

Is she has a real learning disability, then see if you can figure it out and help her.

I never had a deep respect for teachers. I always had a deep respect for the good ones.

Biff

The young lady now sounds like she is making a career out of self-sabotaging. If this is her "modus operandi" I wonder if anyone at school or other activities has noticed her attitude and behavior and thought of intervention and counseling for her.

Life isn't going to be much pleasure if she continues to alienate people like Irenev who simply wants to connect with the girl and give her some quality musical experiences in her piano lessons.

I've always said "You can't teach someone who is will not give you permission to do your job." I've been a big believer with a track record of going forth with difficult students because I thought they especially needed this musical experience in their lives for one reason or another. Mostly to give them support in things that apply how we learn and work through piano lessons in addition to the music experience itself. The discipline, the motivation, the goals and priorities, the responsibility of all the things you need to consider. I think piano lessons are powerful in that aspect of creating thinking and planning skills. Then there is confidence and self esteem that can we gained from piano successes. So, I'd stick in there with difficult situations hoping to make a different in someone's life. Over and over for long years - usually very worth while if people are cooperating with you. But, next to needing a miracle to happen when they were caught up with their acting out or being a disruptive challenge.

Today, at my age and experience, I would think a long time before electing to take on such difficult situations. I think they can tire me out, stress me out, pull my string, and in general give no redeeming qualities to the piano lesson. I have become self protective out of necessity. And, today's kids have so much more energy than I have to give at this point.

When it's about behavior and attitudes I think we are entitled to cut the strings when we have no other choice.

Much more than giving everyone the benefit of the doubt, I believe that synergy and recopricity between people is a better wave length than saving people from themselves.

If we ache for peace and sanctuary in our piano studios, then we have to be somewhat discerning about what we allow to happen in our environment. Good things would be in our best interests!

Re-read the interesting article. It's not talking about sugar causing ADD or ADHD. Sugar has no measurable effect on behavior of children whether in the short or the long term. I'll say it clearly: The sugar high is a myth.

don't listen to me but how about:

"There is elegant research demonstrating that sugar is not at all related to inattention or hyperactivity," says Mina Dulcan, MD, head of child and adolescent psychiatry at Children's Memorial Hospital in Chicago."

"The biggest myth of all is that food has any connection to behavior," says Steven Pliszka, MD, professor of psychiatry, University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio.

" In 1995 the Journal of the American Medical Association published a review of 23 comparatively rigorous studies conducted between 1982 and 1994. These were your classic controlled double-blind affairs: two groups of kids, one fed a bunch of sugar, the other given a placebo (i.e., artificial sweetener), everyone kept sufficiently in the dark as to who'd gotten what, etc.

The results? No discernible relationship between sugar ingested and how the kids acted. It didn't matter how old they were, how much sugar they got, what their diets were like otherwise — nothing. The JAMA authors stopped shy of drawing any definitive conclusions, but if there were a legitimate sugar-high effect out there, you'd like to see it turn up in the lab every so often."

The med-net article goes into more about proximal effects that mask as causative effects.

I teach computer programming to high school students (not my day job), and I see a similar problem in some of our students. Are students not used to the fact that some things in life will be hard? We usually spend some time at the beginning of the year letting them know that some of the projects we work on will be difficult, and they may not be successful with everything right away. But we also reassure them that everyone goes through that struggle at some point in their studies, and talk about some of the difficulties the instructors have experienced. We also give them some strategies and ideas for how to work through those difficult times. Don't know if this can apply to teaching piano. Good luck with your student. I hope you can help her succeed.

MaryBee, interesting point: here in Australia there is currently a debate about school's counselling children who miss out on being elected school captain or getting the lead role in the musical and so forth. The situation seems to be that kids have no experience of failure and disappointment, and they are therefore poorly equipped to cope. Contributing to this are the parents who do their children's homework (wanting to shield them from the consequences of not getting their work done, or not getting it done as well as other children [and their parents]).

Maybe it's especially confronting to be in a one-on-one situation where you really have nowhere to hide - it's clear whether you can or cannot do the task.

?

Kr AYZEE,

How do you account for the fact that teachers notice in the behaviour of their students some ancy tendencies, lack of focus, etc. and learn upon inquiry that they have been fed cookies or sweet treats. Then they ask the parent to feed their child an apple, or carrot and water next time, and the problem is resolved?

Betty, as always, you have some very good insights. Sometimes the biggest lesson you can teach a child is that some teachers will refuse to teach you and it doesn't feel great to be the rejected student. This can be enough to change their attitude towards learning for their next opportunity.

My daughter, who was labeled "gifted," went through a long period of being unwilling to work at anything that required continuing effort, because she was used to everything coming easily to her. She thought that if she didn't get it immediately, she never would. I've seen that with other "smart" kids as well. However, we understood that this was what was happening to her, and kept talking her through it. She never resorted to nasty behavior when she was frustrated, fortunately (and we wouldn't have put up with it if she had). Eventually-- definitely by mid-school-- she learned that practicing a skill over a period of time was worthwhile, and that even people with a lot of ability have to do it.

Elene

Do you think that the labelling of children as 'gifted' is a contributing factor? They don't want to show evidence that maybe they aren't (gifted)? It was a new thing for me about 5 years or so, students starting with their parents announcing "they are so intelligent".... Up til then the parents would have never dreamed of saying so in front of the child! And these were the very children who were terrified of making a mistake.... Now I'm just free-associating on some ideas raised in this thread... but I have found it a curious and interesting development.

I have worked one-on-one with kids around that age who were lost in the school system, which is the other reason why I gave the suggestion that I give, which seems to have been ignored. There are lots of reasons for apathy, confusion, not knowing how to work toward things or with someone. Be that as it may, if a student like this can see relevance to the process, that there is a process with results at the other end, and can become involved in this, there can be a turnaround. When I have tutored kids with a problem in a particular subject area, we have invariably ended up talking about the teaching and learning process. They have gone through the motions for years, following this or that activity they were told to do half heartedly, without ever understanding what was going on (some of it doesn't make sense anyway) or being personally engaged.

You don't have to address the whole school system. But you can address these particular issues. The girl came in thinking that she knew how to learn to play the piano and that she was doing well, and neither is true. While a teacher can see this, she probably can't. Her attitude problem may remain - that will depend on her.