I work in a music store and a new student came in for the first lesson. Student is 12 and seemed really excited about getting her first book, which always causes my heart strings to pull. I am using the PA Primer since she had no music background at all. I noticed her demeanor and attitude was a bit surprising during the first 1/2 hour lesson. She seemed annoyed when I would try to present the exciting new concepts, didn't follow my directions (for ex. pointing out black key patterns, keyboard geography, finger shape, arm relaxation, etc.). The second lesson left me frustrated and fatigued. She tried to control the lesson (I'm sure you know what I mean) and kept insisting on playing the one song she knew "by ear". If she played a rhythm incorrectly and I tried to show her how to correct it, she would not cooperate. She would sigh every time I asked her to do something, lay across the keys in annoyance, play while I tried to talk, and basically was very uncooperative. I finally asked her very calmly and sincerely: "------ do you want to take piano lessons?" She then complained it was so hard. It seems to me that she is only interested in playing songs she is familiar with, albeit incorrectly, and is resistant to learning. I've never dropped a student before, but think perhaps we are just not the right fit. I would love some input on what you would do or have done in this type of situation.

I would definitely have a talk with the student and the parent together. So that you are all on the same page. One cannot work miracles if a student doesn't want to do what is correct. I would explain I want music to be fun and exciting but there is a responsibility on the part of the student and parent that involves cooperation and discipline and if that is not something that they think is possible maybe you aren't quite the right fit. Or you have the option to tell them would you rather just pay me to listen to your daughter play and not worry about teaching her since she doesn't seem to want to learn or cooperate? Then you will probably have to be very patient and innovative if they choose to continue.

Hi Roxy, thanks for the quick answer. I like both of your possible solutions. Would you discuss this before the next lesson in person or call the Mom prior to the next lesson? I think the student might be quite embarrassed if I wait until the lesson and discuss this with the mom in front of her. You know how pre-teens are.

She sounds insecure and wants to hear the WOW - you did great learning that piece all on your own....

I would say the above. Not that you played well, but that you did a wonderful job exploring and actually figuring out the notes of the piece or some such thing of praise.

Then DROP THAT PIECE!

And you control the lesson. You are the teacher.

Let's see what we can learn today - this week. I have something exciting for you to do. Then make sure what you show her IS exciting!

I often use for adults and teenagers something as simple as learning the C triad arpeggio. First as blocked chords (5 minutes) up the keyboard. Then as broken chords (a few times through). Then with pedal with appropriate explanation. Voila, something that sounds important and can be worked on during the week with your instructions how to make it better.

I then add F G in the following lessons.

None of this needs books, reading etc - just fun at the piano while also learning.

Once you win over her confidence, I'll bet that she will settle in and do well.

It is a difficult age for some and they at times need praise and coddling (sp)

Good luck!

In a similar situation, I talked with the mom and expressed concerns. And later, I found it necessary to confront the student again, asking her if she even realized what she was doing. (Contradicting or negating everything I said.) It did help.

However, I also believe something similar to what lilylady said - That this girl needed praise and success. The way I gave it to her was by giving her lighter, easier lessons for awhile, spending a lot of the lesson on mastery, and making a big deal out of the successes.

For the first couple months, I dreaded her lessons. But it's been five months now, and she's doing really well.

I'm all for flexible lessons, but I can't tolerate rudeness or non-compliance, which is what I was dealing with, and what I think you're dealing with. Praise by itself isn't enough. I need to set limits, and reach an understanding about acceptable behavior.

Thanks Lollipop & Lilylady. I didn't go into detail, but I was very complimentary on the first piece. I was quite surprised that she'd learned it, since it was well into the Primer. Then she continued to want to return to that piece, talking over me, being absolutely the rudest student I've ever encountered. Then we came to Ode to Joy, and she said she knew that. Turns out those two pieces were the only ones she wanted to play since they were familiar to her and could she could play by them by ear. The rhythm was incorrect and I continued to go over the measures in various ways until she played it correctly, at which point I was hugely complimentary. It's difficult to imagine that there is anything she will be receptive to. I will speak to the mom if the next lesson goes the same way.

I'm not a piano teacher but I have been a high school teacher and have trained people in the lab where I work. It sounds to me like she's a perfectionist with a cripplingly high anxiety level, so afraid of failure that she's resistent to even attempting to learn anything new. I have no idea how you, as her piano teacher, can address that. It's probably affecting just about every aspect of her life.

I've had students just like this, and it's a personality thing. They are as rude in every learning situation, but it really comes to the fore when it's a one-on-one scenario, like a piano lesson; in classroom situations quite often they can think/behave in a somewhat dismissive manner without the teacher necessarily being completely aware of the extent to which the child believes the teacher has nothing of value to contribute.

ON THE OTHER HAND: these kids are often super bright and bubbly personalities, almost precocious in their social fluency, and with a great confidence in themselves in a social (not intellectual/academic) setting. This generally means they love doing things with other people, and do not thrive in pursuits as solitary as learning the piano.....

So, maybe some duet work (the student and yourself) might be a way of making the learning more social (where the child has greatest ease) and less academic (where they feel stressed/disinterested). And obviously the rote learning approach is the one that will most interest your student - so it could be worth discussing with the parents to what extent they want the lessons to instill a love of music and to what extent they want the lessons to instill an ability to read music.....

But I have certainly felt your pain myself....and you have my empathy!!

I think it's about the student expecting to touch the keyboard and have great sounds and rhythms come out from her creativity and that it's a disappointment for her to find out how much thinking and planning and knowing goes into the mix of playing the keyboard using the music score. The teacher talking and the music page giving instruction is not what she was expecting to do.

Try teaching in a way that produces short tunes and sound that is fulfilling - something that relates to ears coming awake and the spirit moving. Yes, I know we start with instruction of "how to's and we seek accuracy and repetition to drill responses into our student's heads.

I think she needs to touch, feel, respond to learn. That does not necessarily mean teach her to play by ear. But, if she is a "creator" by nature, being in the "follower's" seat is probably like putting a strait jacket on her.

She needs to feel the jolt of excitement. I really believe that the first books used have to create excitement in what they allow the student to do in their early days of instruction. I use precharts written in their simplest form of piano locations (yes a position) and fingering and holding notes for longer duration as marked with hyphens (-) to show increased length. All of the notes are written to flow along in TA (quarter notes - steady beat) with ti-ti's through whole notes being the note values.

My set of beginning music includes: Happy Birthday, Bingo, The Wheels on the Bus, Do Your Ears Hang Low, Morning Has Broken, Aura Lee, Found a Peanut, long etc. By the time we have had 10 lessons, all the basics have been covered that you are concerned about teaching.

The only thing I do to start a student is to label their finger numbers and hands RH/LH 1 2 3 4 5, and do the groups of 2 and 3 black notes to label keyboard letter names and then some finding across the keyboard of all A's in octaves through G's. 8 A's, 8 B's, 8 C's, and then 7 of D, E, F, G. That is enough to get started on the pre-chart reading. From here everything you would teach by concept through elementary level is going to be "seen/heard/felt" while playing from pre-charts. Gradually we introduce the printed music page to demonstrate what we have accomplished in this song.

So the feel, the sound, the experience come first and then we transfer it to the printed page. Whole songs based on childhood music and folk music are enjoyed, along with the lyrics telling a story which helps me teach phrasing, articulation of syllables, vowels and consonants weight (accents) on the keyboard. Imagination and adventure take over with the kids on songs like this as a start and I feel that it is a very good, natural entry to starting the conversation about what we have to know to make music. So many things are already known to our students, we just have to introduce the idea and they can run with it. I call my method "Piano Power" because that's exactly the result it gets. It empowers the student to play the piano from the beginning. Very little in the way of explanation is needed and they are easily launched because of their innate "GO!" power they already possess.

I hate it when the challenges and obstacles that students are feeling are the first things we see from them. First of all, it's reflective of their real emotional state at the present moment, but also because their obstacles cause us to be concerned about our teaching abilities with them. I hate it when their get up and go got up and went! It feels like a big disconnect. And, it can be prevented.

Betty

I have been thinking about this and would like to give a student perspective, given that at 12 she is no longer a small child. Since she already came in playing, it means that she taught herself and formed an impression of what learning to play means. She has no idea that a different kind of reality can exist. What she came into, roughly, is similar to when we hear music, we learn to sing it and we have the whole thing. that is how most untrained people sing. It is direct and instant. For real music making we get into the subtleties of touch, how to approach in instrument (with piano - orienting along the keyboard's patterns, touch) or approach to music (meter, timing, rhythm). She does not hear that she is off in her timing, and so your demands seem unreasonable and a waste of time. She thinks that learning to play means learning the next piece and the next. For her to accept what you are doing, it first has to make sense for her. She has to enter your reality more. That is a huge shift in perspective.

Secondly there is the issue of failure and difficulty. If she happens to be bright and precocious or gifted, then struggling to achieve things will be foreign to her. The piano pedagog Martha Beth wrote about this. Even without that, there is a reality that you know about as a teacher who worked through the stages of piano learning long ago, that she doesn't know about. This reality is that in the beginning we are relatively incapable. That is what learning is about - becoming capable. We do small steps, and after a year we are suddenly capable of what we couldn't do before, and have no idea how that happened. Weaknesses are not scary for you, but they are scary for a self-aware student - age 12 is the age of self-awareness where you see the big picture. The best thing to do is to block it out, no hear someone's critique, or their directions in these "useless" things. Does she know that you are building skills for her? In addition to probably not knowing what piano playing is about (first paragraph)?

The small child is in the moment. You give him an activity, and "cool!" - he does it out of curiosity. Then the next activity and the next. You are building his skills without him even being aware of it. The older person may wonder what it is all about and where it fits in. So they resist. If they came to play music instantly, then your focus on timing and other matters is irrelevant to what they think it's about.

Fascinating discussion. It does sound like this girl has some emotional difficulties, and it could be that piano lessons will be a forum in which she can become more comfortable with herself and others-- or not. But I think we're missing something here. The girl is RUDE. I don't care what else is going on, nobody has the right to abuse another person like this. If she's 12 she's old enough to know better. You, as the teacher, absolutely do not need to put up with her "talking over" you or other inappropriate behavior. "Laying across the keys in annoyance" is totally beyond the pale! Would you put up with this if you were teaching her in school? If you were her mom? I'm sure you wouldn't. And neither would her future college teachers or employers. Or friends, or lovers. She's going to have some major problems if she continues like this.

(It may be that she is already identified with some special-ed type diagnosis and there is already some plan in place for dealing with her antisocial behavior. If you talk to the mom, you may be told something like that. Or the mom may be clueless and letting the daughter walk all over her. Don't know till you start a conversation.)

I'm not saying you can instantly stop her from doing these things, but why not try to establish some ground rules? "Here's how it is. When you talk, I listen. When I talk, you listen." Period. Stating your expectations to both the student and the parent is perfectly reasonable. You can TRY, anyway.

My heart goes out to you. I've had some lulus in my time, but I don't think they were ever quite at this level.

Elene

Yes, Elene, I thought of special needs also, because of the rudeness, but that is not known in the moment.

A girl at age 12 can still be clinging to childhood, or could be advancing physically to look the age of 22 via her attire and cosmetics, we don't know.

There are so many clues that students give us, it's wise to keep an alert eye open to where she/he exists in her/his world at this time.

I think we can get quite weary when students present their resistance to us before we see any other traits.

Ushering students into productivity is quite the art and it gives us opportunity to increase our teaching skills with each new success. However, until it is deemed that progress is being made, we certainly hold the outcome in our hands in trying to reach our students and make something good of their launching into music.

Irenev and others are right to bring it into discussion and look for feedback, ideas, and understanding. We all learn by sharing and responding.

One of the things that used to annoy me was that parents would provide sugary snacks in the car on the way to lessons and that alone created things that could blow your mind during one short half hour. If I think this is happening, I now jump on asking the parent about the child's last hour or two before lessons. My waterloo one year was that a well meaning parent filled the carpool she was driving from church to recital with a quick tour of the local donut show to "hold them" until lunch after the recital. Six kids on sugar high all at once. This is where I started being concerned about snacks before lessons or recitals. Learning the hard way, of course.

Lots of things can contribute to the problems or successes of any length of time we are with our students.

Again giving the kid the benefit of the doubt for a moment, she could possibly have some weird behavior due to a food allergy or some other biochemical issue-- including hormonal changes at that age. The sugar issue Betty mentioned is a good example, and can be a pretty big deal for kids, acting like a stimulant drug. I remember that when my daughter and her friends were in 5th grade, for a while they would eat a spoonful of sugar specifically for the high. At least they weren't doing anything worse-- and at least they did recognize that sugar had effects they didn't necessarily want on a regular basis!

If she tries to act appropriately but can't, then it's a symptom. But this doesn't sound like what's going on here. Just thought I'd mention it, just in case.

Elene

I decided to ask my husband, who teaches special ed and spent many years as a private woodwind teacher and band director, what he'd do. I was able to e-mail him while he was at lunch, and here's his reply:

"Hmm!
Don't let her sit at the piano.
Seat her as the audience and present the new lesson as to an audience, kind of like cross or self talk. She is just observing. Play and model. she can then play her piece get some positive feedback then leave. Limit her access. She will get what she wants out of it or quit. Eventually increase access."

Not something I would have thought of.

Elene

This sounds like a learning difference to me. Could be that she has trouble processing spoken instructions - which might explain why she is talking over you = perhaps to drown you out because she won't get what you say anyway? I would talk to the mother and see if there's any kind of special assessment or special ed already going on in school. If not, I think she needs it. She is not trying to be difficult. She may not even know what "rude" means when you tell her that she is being "rude". A lot of children with seemingly difficult personalities have learning difficulties and have unfortunately over the years learned to make up for them through seemingly anti/un-social behaviour.

I like the idea of setting very strict guidelines, spelled-out, written down if that seems to help.

An excellent book on the subject is Dr. Greenspan's book "The Challenging Child" - I recommend it to all of my parents, whether their children are "difficult" or not. It certainly opened my mind.

Another resource is Rick Lavoie's "How difficult can this be?" where he takes parents and educators through exercises which make them experience what a child with a learning difference is going through each day. It affects not only their learning but also eventually their personality because of the daily frustration from knowing that they try but still don't get it. One of the parents was in tears when she wasn't able to accomplish a seemingly easy task because part of the information was missing. The videos in this series are very very expensive but your public library should have a copy of this video.

Hope you can make it work!

This time round I'm asking that my previous post be given consideration, especially since this has moved to speculation on the psychological and emotional problems. It may be something much simpler.

This sugar/hyperactivity link has yet to be proven scientifically. At least 12 peer reviewed studies have disproved it. Even though it's anathema to internet fora, I've posted a citation from a reputable source.

MedNet article

KZ

I don't think the idea was to suggest a link between sugar and hyperactivity but a link between sugar and a temporary sugar-high.

Very interesting article. I'm with Betty, though, that I have seen students arrive all sugared up for lessons and they bounce off the walls and exhibit weird behavior as in the subject line of this thread. These same students arrive to lessons without sugary snacks after school (upon my request) and they are much calmer and able to focus. Parents have substituted water for sugary drinks in these cases. Perhaps it's the water and not the sugar that's affecting them, I don't know.

Funnily enough, children/adolescents from cultures who have a deep respect for teachers never exhibit the behaviours listed in the OP. It's a cultural issue for sure: she has been raised to be rude. She genuinely doesn't think you have anything of significance to offer her, and that's because she has no respect for teachers as much as anything else - otherwise it would have taken longer for this rudeness to manifest (like at least two/three weeks).

Much as it is tempting to save the world, save yourself. This kind of rudeness on an ongoing basis is utterly demoralising, and life is hard enough.

Wow, you are spot on with that conclusion! I finally decided to call the mom and chat with her about the lesson experiences. I prefaced it by telling the mom that I was very touched by her excitement to get her first piano book, but the lessons turned out to be the opposite experience. I went into detail about the body language, sighing, refusal to play anything or try anything presented other than the two songs she knew how to play. Mom said this was her pattern in life in everything she attempts to do, including school. Everything is too hard, and she gives up easily. Without going into detail, we both agreed to give her another month. I said that I felt she had potential and in combination with her love for music, she was about halfway there to success but that the other half required discipline, practice and commitment to learn new things. I then told the mom I felt she probably had very high expectations of herself and expected immediate success and felt angry and frustrated when success didn't happen quickly. Her mom was in full agreement. Thank you for your input and wish me luck!

I would put a lot of effort in trying to connect with the kid. Nothing fake, just take a real interest. Maybe ask her what she likes and doesn't like outside of the piano world. Find something that you have in common with her and talk about it. And ask her about how her day went.

When she does something well, let her know it. Don't exaggerate, just praise when you can. And explain to her that learning piano takes time and that you had a lot of trouble when you started (whether you did or not).

Most teachers know their material, even most of the bad ones. The best teachers motivate kids who would otherwise not be motivated.

Is she has a real learning disability, then see if you can figure it out and help her.

I never had a deep respect for teachers. I always had a deep respect for the good ones.

Biff

The young lady now sounds like she is making a career out of self-sabotaging. If this is her "modus operandi" I wonder if anyone at school or other activities has noticed her attitude and behavior and thought of intervention and counseling for her.

Life isn't going to be much pleasure if she continues to alienate people like Irenev who simply wants to connect with the girl and give her some quality musical experiences in her piano lessons.

I've always said "You can't teach someone who is will not give you permission to do your job." I've been a big believer with a track record of going forth with difficult students because I thought they especially needed this musical experience in their lives for one reason or another. Mostly to give them support in things that apply how we learn and work through piano lessons in addition to the music experience itself. The discipline, the motivation, the goals and priorities, the responsibility of all the things you need to consider. I think piano lessons are powerful in that aspect of creating thinking and planning skills. Then there is confidence and self esteem that can we gained from piano successes. So, I'd stick in there with difficult situations hoping to make a different in someone's life. Over and over for long years - usually very worth while if people are cooperating with you. But, next to needing a miracle to happen when they were caught up with their acting out or being a disruptive challenge.

Today, at my age and experience, I would think a long time before electing to take on such difficult situations. I think they can tire me out, stress me out, pull my string, and in general give no redeeming qualities to the piano lesson. I have become self protective out of necessity. And, today's kids have so much more energy than I have to give at this point.

When it's about behavior and attitudes I think we are entitled to cut the strings when we have no other choice.

Much more than giving everyone the benefit of the doubt, I believe that synergy and recopricity between people is a better wave length than saving people from themselves.

If we ache for peace and sanctuary in our piano studios, then we have to be somewhat discerning about what we allow to happen in our environment. Good things would be in our best interests!

Re-read the interesting article. It's not talking about sugar causing ADD or ADHD. Sugar has no measurable effect on behavior of children whether in the short or the long term. I'll say it clearly: The sugar high is a myth.

don't listen to me but how about:

"There is elegant research demonstrating that sugar is not at all related to inattention or hyperactivity," says Mina Dulcan, MD, head of child and adolescent psychiatry at Children's Memorial Hospital in Chicago."

"The biggest myth of all is that food has any connection to behavior," says Steven Pliszka, MD, professor of psychiatry, University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio.

" In 1995 the Journal of the American Medical Association published a review of 23 comparatively rigorous studies conducted between 1982 and 1994. These were your classic controlled double-blind affairs: two groups of kids, one fed a bunch of sugar, the other given a placebo (i.e., artificial sweetener), everyone kept sufficiently in the dark as to who'd gotten what, etc.

The results? No discernible relationship between sugar ingested and how the kids acted. It didn't matter how old they were, how much sugar they got, what their diets were like otherwise — nothing. The JAMA authors stopped shy of drawing any definitive conclusions, but if there were a legitimate sugar-high effect out there, you'd like to see it turn up in the lab every so often."

The med-net article goes into more about proximal effects that mask as causative effects.

I teach computer programming to high school students (not my day job), and I see a similar problem in some of our students. Are students not used to the fact that some things in life will be hard? We usually spend some time at the beginning of the year letting them know that some of the projects we work on will be difficult, and they may not be successful with everything right away. But we also reassure them that everyone goes through that struggle at some point in their studies, and talk about some of the difficulties the instructors have experienced. We also give them some strategies and ideas for how to work through those difficult times. Don't know if this can apply to teaching piano. Good luck with your student. I hope you can help her succeed.

MaryBee, interesting point: here in Australia there is currently a debate about school's counselling children who miss out on being elected school captain or getting the lead role in the musical and so forth. The situation seems to be that kids have no experience of failure and disappointment, and they are therefore poorly equipped to cope. Contributing to this are the parents who do their children's homework (wanting to shield them from the consequences of not getting their work done, or not getting it done as well as other children [and their parents]).

Maybe it's especially confronting to be in a one-on-one situation where you really have nowhere to hide - it's clear whether you can or cannot do the task.

?

Kr AYZEE,

How do you account for the fact that teachers notice in the behaviour of their students some ancy tendencies, lack of focus, etc. and learn upon inquiry that they have been fed cookies or sweet treats. Then they ask the parent to feed their child an apple, or carrot and water next time, and the problem is resolved?

Betty, as always, you have some very good insights. Sometimes the biggest lesson you can teach a child is that some teachers will refuse to teach you and it doesn't feel great to be the rejected student. This can be enough to change their attitude towards learning for their next opportunity.

My daughter, who was labeled "gifted," went through a long period of being unwilling to work at anything that required continuing effort, because she was used to everything coming easily to her. She thought that if she didn't get it immediately, she never would. I've seen that with other "smart" kids as well. However, we understood that this was what was happening to her, and kept talking her through it. She never resorted to nasty behavior when she was frustrated, fortunately (and we wouldn't have put up with it if she had). Eventually-- definitely by mid-school-- she learned that practicing a skill over a period of time was worthwhile, and that even people with a lot of ability have to do it.

Elene

Do you think that the labelling of children as 'gifted' is a contributing factor? They don't want to show evidence that maybe they aren't (gifted)? It was a new thing for me about 5 years or so, students starting with their parents announcing "they are so intelligent".... Up til then the parents would have never dreamed of saying so in front of the child! And these were the very children who were terrified of making a mistake.... Now I'm just free-associating on some ideas raised in this thread... but I have found it a curious and interesting development.

I have worked one-on-one with kids around that age who were lost in the school system, which is the other reason why I gave the suggestion that I give, which seems to have been ignored. There are lots of reasons for apathy, confusion, not knowing how to work toward things or with someone. Be that as it may, if a student like this can see relevance to the process, that there is a process with results at the other end, and can become involved in this, there can be a turnaround. When I have tutored kids with a problem in a particular subject area, we have invariably ended up talking about the teaching and learning process. They have gone through the motions for years, following this or that activity they were told to do half heartedly, without ever understanding what was going on (some of it doesn't make sense anyway) or being personally engaged.

You don't have to address the whole school system. But you can address these particular issues. The girl came in thinking that she knew how to learn to play the piano and that she was doing well, and neither is true. While a teacher can see this, she probably can't. Her attitude problem may remain - that will depend on her.

On giftedness: The first teacher to address the problem side of it was Martha Beth Lewis on her site. She states that things come easy to the gifted child, so that this child will not have experienced failure. Ordinarily children will fail the first time round, struggle, and have the experience of first not being able to do something, and gradually being able to do it. The gifted child hasn't had that experience. Piano is about coordination and things that are not in control in the same way so this student will fail the first time round - but it will seem like permanent failure since s(he) doesn't know the process.

This is her article:
M. B. Lewis "Teaching Exceptionally Bright Children"

I teach adult readers (3rd grade level) and I realized for them and for myself (a slightly obsessive compulsive perfectionist) in relearning piano, "normalizing" mistakes/errors helps greatly, especially after the introduction phase. Most people expect to make mistakes at the beginning, but not after they've practiced. My piano teacher has really worked with me to alleviate the fear of errors with small comments like, "Everyone has problems with rhythm there" or "Hey, that's better. Let's play that measure together." Playing with her helps A LOT.

These two points are particularly excellent and pertinent issues, and I reckon that you've hit the nail on the head, keystring.

But in addition to this she is not a well-behaved 12 year old, who feels entitled to sigh heavily when asked to do any particular task or who behaves in a variety of other rude ways through the lesson.

The question is: is it worth persevering with such a student? Maybe piano lessons can be the foundation upon which she builds a whole new perspective of herself, and of her ability to learn and gain new skills.

So then what it comes down to is how interested the teacher is in this particular teaching opportunity. At some times in my life I would have enthusiastically taken it on; at others I would have run a mile. It's important for teachers to be realistic about how much rudeness they can endure in the context of their teaching week, and whether a student like this is going to drain all their enthusiasm for teaching or be a catalyst for new approaches to teaching. I've seen teachers lose faith in themselves when working with students like this, and that makes me very sad indeed (obviously in such a case the student doesn't really end up benefitting too much either).

But this is only true (that the child will not have experienced failure) if the child is truly exceptional both academically, physically, socially and in the myriad other opportunities for success and failure that we all face as we learn and grow. Does every mathematically gifted child really play baseball with equal brilliance? Does every soccer-star 8 year-old really have a grasp on high-school physics? Does every piano prodigy really have exceptional hand-writing, and have a happy social life appropriate for a 9-year-old?

And not every gifted child takes disappointment as a permanent failure: many gifted children are marked by their resilience to failure when other children immediately give up, and this is part of what creates their 'giftedness'. Now, I can't find quotes to back me up just now, but I've certainly seen (first hand) gifted children without this propensity to stalemate at the first problem they encounter. In fact, problem solving (not being put off by an apparent or actual setback) is a major component of demonstrating that you are actually gifted.

What we can say, however, is that some students (no matter how fabulous they are announced as being) fear failure. And that is something real and needs to be dealt with irrespective of whether the student (child or adult) has any other 'talent' or 'gift' hidden or in plain view. Because fear of failure, fear of making a mistake, can prevent you from all your greatest accomplishments.

I would be very upfront with a student like this. I would first ask her what she hopes to achieve with her keyboard skills - the most likely answer being: "I want to play songs I like". I would then ask her if she wants to just play them, or whether she wants to play them well. Basically, however the conversation goes, as an experienced communicator with far more self-awareness, I know it shouldn't be too difficult to lead the conversation exactly where I want it to be - namely, that I am on her side in all of this - I am simply trying to help her become a better player, and ultimately, it is going to be her that benefits from this.

I would then go on to explain that if she really wants to fight me at every stage of the process, it will only be her that loses out - after all, I can already play the piano.

Fairly often I find myself explaining the process of learning a musical instrument in terms that students of today can relate to - the most obvious of which is video-gaming. I liken each piece to a 'level' and point out how there is much more to be gained by learning a piece of music than there is by beating an end of level boss, as the replay value of music is generally much higher than a level in a video game. Lots of practice is of course essential for success in both! However, gaming achievements are nothing to shout about, since most of their friends will be just as good - if they really want to impress their mates, they should try playing a piece of cool music to them, after all, I bet hardly any of them can play a musical instrument, can they?

I also find the analogy of hand-writing to be something they can relate to, especially in terms of how long it takes to learn to do it well. When I ask them to consider how many hours.. years, in fact.. they have put into learning to write or draw so far, the penny starts to drop. Again, I will point out that this is something that practically everyone can do, and how learning to play a musical instrument is far more specialised than this!

KrAYZEE, your take on the literature on the effects of sugar is right on the mark. I feel compelled to weigh in here because (small world) one of my colleagues and good buddies here at UK is Richard Milich, who is one of the clinical child psychologists who has done a lot of the major studies looking at the effects of sugar on behavior in both hyperactive and normal children. He concurs completely with your reading of the literature.

Candywoman, I'll take a stab at answering your question about how to explain away anecdotal reports of bad behavior following sugar ingestion and good behavior after intervening with carrots and water. However, to really do justice to your question would require a lengthy digression on the role of the experimental method in demonstrating causality and the superiority of double-blind studies over anecdotal reports. But that would probably bore everybody here. I'll try to hit the highlights instead. The empirical laboratory studies on this issue randomly assign children (and adults, where included) to experimental conditions, and they are either given substances containing sugar or placebo, but the children do not know which substance they have received, nor do the experimenters running the session or their parents. This allows a pure test of the effects of sugar on behavior untainted by experimenter, parental, or self-expectancies.

As for why the anecdotal reports are so convincing, it is because children and parents are well aware of the beliefs about sugar's effects, so they are primed to see worse behavior when kids have eaten sugar and better behavior if sugar is withheld. It is also the case that heavy sugar consumption is often correlated with situations like birthday parties or celebrations or the like, and it is those situations that is causing the out of control behavior, not the sugar. With respect to your specific example about parents withholding sugar and substituting carrots, there are likely a lot of other uncontrolled variables affecting the situation (parents' nonverbal behavior toward the children, positive and negative verbal reinforcement, etc.). It has been documented since the 1930s (read the literature on the Hawthorne Effect and, relatedly, placebo effects) that merely introducing any change will bring about improvement, simply because the people involved are aware that an intervention is being introduced.

Dang it, I ended up writing a book anyway.

Thanks, however, if I may just comment that the student voluntarily wanted to take lessons, as opposed to students who HAVE to take certain required classes. Some may absolutely find computers intriguing (or music class) while others may absolutely hate it from the get go. It seems that this student only wants to do things her way or no way and the mom has tried various sports, etc. to get her interested, but she has a self-defeating attitude. I can handle that, but not outright rudeness. I will definitely speak to her and try to draw out the interest and ability and focus on that to hopefully get us back on track.

Sugar?
No, this is a plain case of a rude and spoiled child.

Refuse to teach her, and let someone else put up with her tantrums.

Ben, that is really excellent advice. I am going to use most of it if you don't mind. I am also going to let her know that in my quest to help her learn to play piano, I will not tolerate the behaviors I've endured over the last couple of lessons.

I am overwhelmed by these posts! Thank you to everyone, it's beyond my wildest expectations to get all this advice. The Mom also told me that she felt that she may be part of the issue, since the family built up the student's ideas of her ability (ability to play by ear) and so she probably came to lessons thinking she knew so much, had so much ability and was thus resistant to being taught. Please know that I was very kind, and positive and praised her ability, while trying to move through the songs and present new concepts. She just did not want to listen or follow any instructinos at all.

This has been an interesting thread, and there have been a few insights that I never would have considered, so thanks for those!

I totally agree that sugar is not often the culprit, but often the excuse. However, I DO believe that caffeine causes problems in many. I have an ADHD nephew whose mother (my sister) filled his baby bottles with Pepsi, because he preferred it, then couldn't understand why he never slept. Became a huge cycle; he's 20 now and still out of control.

But I digress.

As I stated early on, I would not tolerate rudeness. If this child does not understand that her behavior is rude or inappropriate, then you will be doing her a favor explaining this to her. No need to be nasty (not that I think you would.) Just explain that her behaviors make you feel like she isn't interested in what you are teaching, and doesn't respect you. (She can't argue with how you feel.) You have no desire to cause her life to be so unpleasant, so if she is unhappy here, you are willing to talk with her mother about alternatives. She should just let you know what she wants to do, politely.

On the other hand, if she is acting this way because she is afraid of it being too hard for her, then you would like to reassure her that you believe she is intelligent and talented and capable. You are excited to be able to teach her how to do these things well. Any time she thinks you are going too fast for her, you'd be happy to back off - just let you know.

Remind her that a large part of teaching is necessarily negative. If she were doing everything right, she wouldn't need you. So your focus is going to be on the things that aren't yet perfect, but she shouldn't be discouraged by this. I love some of the illustrations others have given - like learning to write. (I've used learning to read with my students. Reminding them that it took them a couple years to progress from phonics to fluency.) I have also "flattered" a few students about their intelligence, saying, "This is complicated, but you are pretty bright, so I think you'll be okay." Stating belief in someone is a remarkable motivator.

With my student who has a tendency to talk over me, and negate what I say, I've resorted now to simply stating firmly, "Stop!" She immediately stops, smiles sheepishly, and says, "sorry." Sometimes I ask her to repeat to me what I just said, to be sure she processed it.

I do give her a turn to talk now and then, too.

Yes - definitely - to the second part. Manners are manners.

Of course, you are more than welcome



I suspected this might have been the case - I would also wager she has experienced very little criticism in any other area of her life.

Why don't you just play for her? For a few weeks, play things, and have her sing. Show her what the music she knows is all about. Show her on the score what is going on, when she sings show her on the score what is going on. Find a way to have her tinkle along beside you, if possible.

Play classical music too. Play and play, and talk a lot, about the music, for as long as it takes, until you find the opening, the way to begin lessons. She'll calm down, she'll open up.

And even if she doesn't, she'll have a remarkable experience.

Is she in a hurry? Are her parents in a hurry? Are you in a hurry?

I think she's just terrified.

Thanks Lollipop, I will definitely use your suggestions--excellent statements without putting her on the defensive.

None of us are in a hurry, but you know there's always a modicum of pressure whether it's said or not, to show progress, especially in these economic times, when money for lessons isn't top priority with many families. I like your suggestion to play for her, although I am sure there will be tons of sighing about that, b/c she really wants to be center stage.

Elene,
thanks for your posts and going above and beyond in including hubbie in this exciting discussion. I love his suggestion. Right now, I have to close the lid while I talk to prevent her playing over me and laying over the piano keys in annoyance. lol

Goodness, putting Pepsi in a baby's bottle is child abuse! Not only caffeine, but high-fructose corn syrup and God knows what else. However, sometimes ADHD people use caffeine to self-medicate because, like with Ritalin, it has a calming rather than stimulating effect on them.

The point keystring brought up, about the "gifted" child not having experienced failure, is valid and is part of what I observed with my daughter and some of her friends and my students. Of course, as the child grows, he or she has plenty of opportunities to fail, since nobody is good at everything, but their unrealistic expectations about needing to be perfect can be a real problem.

And yet, I repeat, rudeness is still something you don't need to tolerate.

A colleague of mine, Beth Gineris, has been writing a blog that is aimed at parents but has good material for just about everybody. I thought the teachers here, in particular, might find it useful. Here is the latest post:

http://instinctivehealthmedicine.com/2010/04/07/inoculation-for-bullying

Thanks to everybody for doing what Beth says here, raising the level of the whole group! I am so glad to know you!

Elene

Keystring, I really value your input from another perspective. However, I would love to hear your suggestions (or did I miss that?) on how to approach a student with the perspective/attitude you suggest.

Irenev, I had some ideas in my post of April 6, about the 10th one from the beginning. I might be completely off, and this may simply be a spoiled kid. But those were my first thoughts.

I agree with Lollipop:

“I can't tolerate rudeness or non-compliance”

I think intolerance is exactly what is called for. I would use my dominating stature and years of experience to let this child know who’s the boss. I didn’t get into teaching to put up with non-compliant twelve year olds.


And I agree with Elene:

“The girl is RUDE. I don't care what else is going on, nobody has the right to abuse another person like this.”

Right on sister. As an adult, I am not prepared to put up with a child not following my direction.


And Elissa Milne, I think you called it best:

“It's a cultural issue for sure: she has been raised to be rude.”

I think we all know exactly which culture you’re talking about and I completely agree with your assessment. You’re my kind of gal.

“But in addition to this she is not a well-behaved 12 year old, who feels entitled to sigh heavily when asked to do any particular task or who behaves in a variety of other rude ways through the lesson.”

I can’t stand that. When a child sighs heavily, I just wish they were never born. What do they want from us teachers?

“I've seen teachers lose faith in themselves when working with students like this”

Me too. Rude twelve year old children can radically alter my perception of myself.


And I’m also with ROB.

“Refuse to teach her”

This isn’t a child in need of help. This is a monster.


WOULD SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME WHAT YOU EXPECT FROM TEACHERS?

Biff

Candywoman,

Why did those parents observe a difference in their children's behaviors when they hadn't actually been given sugar? I don't know and either do you nor do you know what causes what Ms Patnude observes. And that's my point--that word •cause•. Coincidence is NOT cause. Anecdotal evidence is not proof of cause. If it was, in my house there would be proof that people with blue eyes are gifted at math while brown eyed people, not so much.

Before we say something is true we verify it scientifically. That means quantifiable, verifiable, repeatable results. No test like this has proven the link between sugar and a change of behavior in children.

I cited an academic article and quoted the Journal of the American Medical Association. A responsible teacher of kids will do their own reading and draw their own conclusions.


"You can't use reason to move a man from a point of view when he didn't use reason to get to that point"--Will Rogers



KZ

Using reason/being reasonable as a teacher involves common sense and experience in addition to reading reliable information.
I find this whole sugar discussion interesting. If you google "sugar's affect on the brain", several articles come up, with peer-reviewed sources listed. Students have come in to my studio for lessons after eating sugar and are unable to focus.
These same kids come to lessons after eating non-sugary snacks after school and their focusing improves. I've seen it time and time again. Anecdotal? Perhaps. I have no medical or science background, this is my experience and observation.
Regarding the rude behavior of the student described by the OP:
Who knows what has caused this, but it's our choice whether or not we as teachers will put up with it.

I think, that in this situation, I would look to the parent, and consider the way this poor child is being brought up.

When I first took lessons, in the early 60s, an excess of sugar, and fizzy drinks were rare events in my household.

BUT....... if my mother had been made aware that I was acting in piano lessons, at even 7 years old, the way this 12 year old is acting, I would have found it painful to sit down for several hours.

Teaching.

Do you have children, or teach? If you say “yes” to either or both, God bless those children.

Trolling? I never notify our mods and don’t ever intend to but I’d appreciate it if someone would.

I agree with you, Nguyen. And I particularly want to know what BiffBaxter means by this little gem...

+1 to Nguyen and Leagal Beagle -


Cathy

Thanks, Elene, for the link to instinctive health medicine!

Biff, you mentioned the notion of respect for teachers in your first post/persona. The way you wrote sounds as if teachers had to earn your respect in the first place.

If students start with respect as the default position, and it is the teacher's to lose, lessons get off to a tremendous start and tend to not look back - assuming the teacher maintains that respect.

When a student enters a learning situation with no respect for the teacher and the first lessons (up to six months or more) are marked with the student disputing the instruction of the teacher and not respecting the guidance given, the lessons are compromised from the start.

In fact, I would go so far to say that it is a rare thing indeed for a student who has commenced with an attitude of disrespect (as compared to distrust, which is a completely different issue) to change that attitude at any fundamental level. The superficial behaviours may modify to be more appropriate from moment to moment, but the underlying disrespect for the teacher as a teacher is not permanently impacted on by any evidence or relational change.

Interestingly, adult students tend to bring an exceptional level of respect into their lessons, and when this is combined with adequate practice (which is hard for some adults to manage simply from a family/work perspective) these students fly ahead. On the other hand, some children and adolescents use the lesson as a testing ground for what is acceptable behaviour or for a power struggle with the parent, and the teacher is on an irretrievably losing wicket when this is the case.

I would also like to know. (Apparently we don't "all know" - though I'm not sure I'm going to like the answer.)

This has been my experience with adult students too.

Nguyen, Legal Beagle, jotur and currawong,

You missed my point entirely. Apparently I was too subtle. I thought I was using a sledge hammer backed up by a freight train. If you go back and read the entire thread, I think you may be enlightened. If you read the thread and still think I am the problem, I suggest that you read it again. Brownie points to the first one that figures it out.

Elissa

“The way you wrote sounds as if teachers had to earn your respect in the first place.”

No I never said or suggested that. Although I didn’t say it exactly, I was saying that I did not respect bad teachers.

“I would go so far to say that it is a rare thing indeed for a student who has commenced with an attitude of disrespect to change that attitude at any fundamental level.”

Wow. I would go so far as to say that teachers who don’t expect or strive to make a difference for students who are in need of some attitude improvement probably rarely will.

Biff

Dear Biff,

I had indeed read the whole thread.

So, you were interpreting the comments? It might have been easier, had you not said "I agree" each time? Or, if you had sighed at the end of your post? Something else that said "Boy, are these extreme statements IMHO"?

Or am I still wrong.

Don't need the brownie points, tho. Too fat as it is

Cathy

jotur,

Congratulations. I am curious. You were offended by my culture comment but not the culture comment I seemed to be agreeing with?

Biff

Biff - I sent you a pm.

I have been known to have some disagreements here at PW :), but haven't had a lot of time since the first of the year. I didn't read the original of the culture quote quite as strongly as you did (I read it more as the culture of the particular family, and while I don't see any way to know that that was the case, I didn't see it as a reference to a larger group), altho there was some eyebrow lifting on my part at a couple of posts.

There was also some good information and ideas here, too. But I'm trying to pick my battles these days

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Cathy

"Peace and love, peace and love." -- Ringo Starr, philosopher, trend setter, all around bitchin' dude

Still too subtle, I'm afraid, so I guess I don't get the brownie points. But I certainly read Elissa's post as meaning the culture of the individual family. I really don't know what you thought she meant.

I have no idea how anyone could take me as referring to anything beyond the culture of raising kids to not be polite. And I have no idea *what* possible other reference there could be, so I'm fascinated to hear what I had in mind.

The OP clearly took a caring approach to her student from the start and was surprised by the determination of the student to resist instruction/suggestion, and so, being a good teacher, took any number of contingencies into account, but still the same response. On discussing the situation with the parent it turned out there there were contributing factors from the family (a culture of praising even the most basic achievement as exceptional) and that this was an ongoing pattern in the child (resisting being shown how to do anything she couldn't already do well, and not responding well to positive adult influence in this educational part of her life).

The family could have made a huge difference in this situation by educating their child as to what a one-on-one lesson is about, how to behave, what is and is not acceptable, what to expect from the time spent at the piano, and so on.

Of course teachers can make an enormous difference, but pretending that students aren't rude won't help the teacher to do so, and pretending that any problem in the lesson is due to the teacher's lack of commitment, focus or talent will also do nothing to further the student's progress. Beyond this, it's optimistic in the extreme to think that teachers can save humanity. Sometimes their influence really does reach this kind of life-changing proportion, but really good teachers often just deliver really good teaching, not redemption, rehabilitation and restoration wrapped into one.

Addressing behavioural issues is sometimes about making sure kids feel accepted and safe, valued and welcomed, and sometimes it's about doing all of the above while also saying "That's just not OK". This is one of those times.

Biff, if you had read the entirety of the posts (not just mine) that look at the unacceptable nature of this student's behaviour you would have seen all kinds of positive observations and/or suggestions. I may very well be your kind of gal, but I have no idea what kind of a person you are at all - I'm awaiting an update on the culture to which I was referring before being able to reach a conclusion on that front.

Biff, my sincere apologies for missing your sarcasm entirely. I'm obviously not the only one, so I don't feel tooooo stupid.

The problem, of course, is that there are a number of folks hanging around here who would write things just like that and mean them.

"I've never dropped a student before, but think perhaps we are just not the right fit. I would love some input on what you would do or have done in this type of situation."

Funny thing, I just recently read Robert Louis Stevenson's classic study of the monstrous, muderous, and evil personality of Mr. Hyde, which overpowers the good and wonderful Dr. Jekyl's, though the agency of a powerful and exotic drug, unknown to science.

I kept waiting through the thread, to see when the Dr. Jekyl aspect of this music student was going to show up... and I'm still waiting. To boil it down, I see a frightened and clueless kid who needs to be taken in hand, and a frightened and clueless teacher who doesn't know how to make it happen.... probably, with frightened and clueless parents to back it up. "A Child's Garden of Pathology."

So, depressingly but accurately, I think the OP answered her own question in the very first post, throwing out a slight red herring about "I've never dropped a student before," which I guess either means nothing, or else it means that the teacher is apologizing for her own inexperience.

And the winner is: (1) Shove it off on someone else, (2) watch a few episodes of "Judge Judy," or, (3) try to see the frightened kid who is "speaking" through her behavior and begging to be shown that someone cares enough to set limits, stick with her, and show her how to do something besides fail again.

These people can grow up to be horrors--- wait til this one gets hit with a good surge of estrogen; you'll see her in the supermarket with the same roadshow one of these days, plus a kid in the shopping cart and one or two toddling behind.

It well could be that the teacher is right, and that it's too late already; the momentum may already be too great. Or, it could be that that the moment is just exactly ripe. If we're going to be reading the classics, a good one for teachers is Frances Gray Patton's "Good Morning, Miss Dove."

Maybe I'm all wrong... Mae West used to say, "Never marry a man to reform him--- that's what reform schools are for."

Jeff Clef,

I love your post! It's so clear to me that you love your reading time as much as you love your piano. I just delight in the references you make to something that literature. I treasure your reminders and it all comes back - just to hear the "Good Morning, Miss Dove" mentioned create the impact of what you are advising with just a quiet mention of a book (or it's movie) to us.

I'm usually wondering what books you are reading this week! I'm a big reader too, several books going at once, but you make use of what you have read in the most clever of ways and apply them to human predicaments and human ailings.

You've got me wondering what else Mae West said!

Betty

Here is a suggestion from a "mean old lady" who does not have the energy to waste figuring out WHY someone is misbehaving, and just wants it to STOP.

I would, very nicely, explain to her at the beginning of the next lesson, the behavior I REQUIRE and the behavior I FORBID (don't let her sit at the piano. Make her sit somewhere else and give you her full attention while you go over this). Tell her that this is how she must behave if she wants to stay in my studio.

See, cause I'm old and tired I don't really care WHY someone is misbehaving. It costs me no less energy to deal with misbehavior just because there is some 'deep seated reason' for it.

I would tell her that I am paying her the compliment of having high standards for behavior during lessons as well as playing the piano. It is up to her to decide whether she wants to stay, and behave appropriately if the decision is "yes."

ONLY when she has agreed to the standards of behavior, and accepts that she will have to leave immediately if she doesn't meet them, does the lesson start. Make her reiterate each requirement.

If and when she acts inappropriately (***at the first sigh or whatever***) stop the lesson immediately and boot her butt out the door and tell her if it happens again it will be the last time she steps in your studio. AND MEAN IT. If that does not shock sense into her you are better off refusing to keep her.

My guess is that a lot of this is an act she's putting on because she feels embarrassed or awkward.

Prodigal Pianist!

A teacher with a "hickory stick" and not afraid to use it?

Yes, the bottom line is our tolerance. There is nothing wrong with setting standards in our piano studios.

"Because I'm old and tired" would work for me because it's true chronologically, but inside, I'm as spirited and ready as I ever was to teach a lesson. But, the rocking chair does call my name from time to time.

If no other reason can be found - and I came up with a lot of possibilities for the cause myself - "Because I said so!" and "What part of 'No!' do you not understand?" are complete messages. If we were to say it emphatically when we were feeling that way, what would be the result? Teachers don't wait long enough for the students response if it's not immediately said. Teachers keep talking, I think.

Say it, stop talking, and let the message drop on the student's and the parent's conscience where it belongs. No lesson until the behavior problem is acknowledged, discussed, an agreement made, or release from lessons occurs.

Time and energy become shorter and shorter as we age in this profession. We should preserve ourselves for the best situations in teaching we can create. Music and our homes and studios are our sanctuaries in which live and work - our domains.

Do we want to be part of the problem or part of the solution?

We just have to "mean" what we say!

Betty

Same here Biff. My apology!

There are obviously, as Legal Beagle states, some of these going on around here. Though my brain can definitely use a light bulb or two during these busy quarter ends, you get the idea why once in awhile we react to these kind of comments a bit strong.

Not to defend my carelessness but even if one goes through the whole thread during lunch and breaks in our busy day, he/she would probably still miss the hidden sarcasm.

I’m glad I spoke up and sound stupid now, than keep quiet and think you’re the bad guy.

Shake hands?

I don't see any problem with you or Irenev dropping a student for whatever reason but ...



... but this is just ridiculous.

No problem. But ...



... but what the heck is that? Your standards are yours, they have nothing to do with her, and are not a compliment. That is just moralistic blackmail.

ISBN 9780884118794

It was actually scary to see how long this book has been out of print, though used book sellers carry it at somewhere around twenty times the price of the paperback edition I used to have. The library might be a better bet; it is not the kind of volume thieves or book-banners go after.

As I thought over it, I remembered the scene in which a suitor lost his temper with Miss Dove because she was so stubborn and exasperating. She told him, severely, "If you wish my attention, you must employ a civil tone."

He had just offered to marry her. Not to mention that it would have taken a very large load of trouble off her shoulders. It seems to me the movie was actually quite good; much less of a hack job than novels typically suffer. Jennifer Jones, right? And a virgin right through to the closing credits; something else you don't much see in films these days. Yet, in the hospital after a risky surgery, she spoke to Chuck Connors, a (straight, single) policeman, about another (trampy) former student of hers (also single--- now), who had been her practical nurse: "She was a competent and caring nurse," said Miss Dove. She thought for a moment, and added, "She was genteel."

(Yes, he did marry her. What is a checkered past compared to Miss Dove's given word on the subject.)

Judge Judy does not turn such an elegant phrase, though I guess she gets the job done when she barks out, to litigants who try to argue or talk over her, "I'm SPEAKING. That means, when I talk, you don't talk."

You know, I think it's too soon for this young piano teacher to give up. How could she hold up her head, knowing that she'd been overmatched by a twelve-year-old girl in just two weeks? Some people, you just have to handle them as if they just fell out of the sky. We are talking about a half-hour once a week, right--- is that so unbearable? Well, raise your rates till it is bearable. Teach the parents a lesson while you're at it.

You're not licked till you're licked.

Thanks for your kind words, Betty. Since you ask, I'm reading a book about owls, with one about grizzly bears waiting its turn. Recently, an excellent biography of Rachmaninoff (poker parties and speedboat rides--- could you believe it--- during the summer breaks at his country home), a fair one (not really a biography; one of those "Cambridge Companion To" books) on Debussy; a bit heavy on the stomach. "The Anza Expedition and the Settling of California," interesting, astonishing, and very well-written.

Waiting their turn: Charles Rosen, "The Romantic Generation," and C.P.E. Bach, "Essay on the True Art," both started and set aside as worthwhile but too heavy going for the time, and a bunch of those B&N reprint editions of classics whose copyrights have expired. I thought I'd give Gogol's "Dead Souls" a try; it's supposed to be a comedy, and I have a few by Twain and Dumas. These last are worthwhile but surprisingly readable; they were their day's equivalent of the mini-series.

As for what Mae West had to say, it's worth a Google. Very smart, that one. It's true she became a caricature of herself toward the end of her very long life, but I haven't read that she complained about it. That alone is food for thought.

Betty, Jeffclef, Prodigal, I am once again so grateful for all this wonderful input and advice. Betty, thanks for all the contributions to this great thread. Jeff, I love your post, but let me just say that I am not a young, new, inexperienced teacher. I've taught privately (thus, get to pick and choose my own students) for 10 years, took a break and returned last year to a situation where students are "assigned." I have the right to refuse students, but for numerous reasons, I do not want to give up on any student, however, I've had many challenges. About 80% of my students are under 7 and are all, but one, transfer students (some of them already having gone through 3 teachers!). I have "the next American Idol", adults who just want a crash course in piano. It's been a wildly challenging and wonderful experience for me, accompanied with much angst, reading, and posting. lol. I want to post an update under a new thread so I will be sure that all the wonderful teachers/students who posted their invaluable responses will know there is an update to this. Jeff, the Dr. Jeckyl side slightly emerged at this last lesson. Prodigal, I just am laughing in agreement with everything you've said. I am getting way too old for this nonsense. Student comes in for second lesson, decides she knows it all, plays while I talk, insists on just playing two songs, interrupts, sighs, throws herself on the piano in annoyance and outright refuses to follow anything I ask her to do (a simple request such as starting on the last measure and working out a mistake together). It was exhausting and stressful. I am not a psychiatrist, although I'd be making a ton more money per hour if I'd gone that direction. I am a piano teacher. I've never been stern or tough, but I am learning quickly that the nice, friendly teacher approach may not necessarily work for all students. In this case, I intend to follow Prodigal's advice, as well as that of a few others on this thread the instant the Dr. Hyde behavior emerges.

... but what the heck is that? Your standards are yours, they have nothing to do with her, and are not a compliment. That is just moralistic blackmail. [/quote]

No, it's not.

Too many kids these days are used to getting away with murder (sometimes literally) because "they can't help it" or "they don't know any better" or some other "poor thing we can't expect as much from them". And that's crap.

This kid does not need anyone to feel sorry for her or make excuses for her because of some thing in her background or personality. It's an insult to her intelligence and capability.

Believing someone is capable of meeting high standards has always been taken as a compliment in my experience.

Kids aren't dumb. They know when people let them get away with less than their best...or even less than their 'average'! They don't respect people who let them slide. And, deep down, they know the people don't think very highly of them.

My "standards" are nothing more than a baseline for acceptable polite behavior for a child who is having lessons with an adult teacher. They have *everything* to do with her and if she does not know that now and is allowed to keep acting this way, she is in for a rude awakening at some point in her life.

I am not a piano teacher but I have been a substitute teacher many times in band and chorus classes, so I do know about discipline. And kids who will test boundaries.

Jeff Clef,

I can not keep up with your reading list as it's beyond impressive! I can't imagine the size of your 'tote' bay to carry all those books. I imagine wall to wall book shelves in your home. Quite a variety of reading you are doing too! I also imagine that your interest in the music you play goes like this too - unlimited variety.

I have a picture of 3 of my eventually 5 little kids (this was years ago) and we were coming out of the library (ages about 2,3,4) and the kids were each carrying books in their arms and holding them down with their chins. Right there in Santa Clara Library come to think of it! We had a regular week day during which we took in story time and picked up more books. The joy of it!

The world is your oyster when you have the book habit!

Irene,

Your topic has attracted much attention and lots of ideas - yours to choose from. I think your young lady is in dire need of an "awakening" as to how she is perceived by others. Difficult situation for sure. I'm glad you might have found something in my postings. You certainly have held my interest in this problem student situation.

Not to scare you or make another problem for you, but I think you ought to consider if there might be some manic-depressive stuff going on with her and that she might be taking medications for it. I began to think perhaps she is capable of being volatile, explosive and perhaps a danger to herself or others? Scary thought. I apologize if this is too far out for you or for anyone else reading my comments, but I'm of the thought that if something comes to mind, we need to entertain the thought. It definitely came to my mind as I was reading the latest responses, sorry to say.

I'm glad you gave your background to us here for us to appreciate as it helps us respond better to you I think.

Betty

Betty, how do you get "volatile, explosive, and perhaps a danger to herself or others" from this 12-year old's inattention, lack of cooperativeness, and sighing?

I think your speculation here is not only incorrect but irresponsible.

Do you not realize, Monica, that this young girl is beyond inattentive, uncooperative, and sighing?

The teacher, Irene, said the last lesson was stressful and exhausting in her last post. Piano teachers have a lot of patience and self discipline to wait it out with students. I believe Irene means what she says about the girl and I don't think Irene gives up easily or brings problems to the forum because she can't handle them.

This child seems to be disturbed and reactive in a negative way to Irene who is simply being there in the position she has been asked to fill. I think the child is abusive.

Do you categorize the problems Irene has told us about as "normal" or "average" behavior in any environment? Maybe the one-on-one private lesson is more revealing as to the student's issues because we see it all in piano teaching, very up close and personal.

I think Irene might think about her own sanity and safety in dealing with 12 years old with such radical problems. This age group is capable of bullying, murder and suicide according to the news media. So I'll risk censor and being incorrect and irresponsible by voicing my concern to Irene.

Do you have something to offer Irene from a psychologist viewpoint? I'd be interested in hearing it.

Betty Patnude

You have a fresh-sounding voice, Irenev--- I hope you can excuse me for thinking that you sound young. It is all in how we look at life, isn't it... but thank you for explaining your perspective more. I'm sure that you will make the decision that's best. No one is in a better position to know than you, with a seat on the fifty-yard line. And no, I wouldn't tolerate the behavior.

Well, good luck.

No, I don't realize that this girl is beyond inattentive, uncooperative, and sighing. I've re-read irenev's descriptions several times, and the behaviors she describes all, imo, fall under the category of inattention, lack of cooperation, and a heavy dose of pre-teen snottiness. I do not see anything at all indicative to me that warrants the label "abusive" or bipolar disorder (which is the currently accepted term for manic-depression) or suggests that she is at *any* risk of harming herself or others.

Diagnostic labels stigmatize and can have serious consequences. Accurate diagnoses can be reached only through careful observation and evaluation by a trained professional, which is not me--and it is not you. I do not think anybody should be tossing diagnoses around as a result of what they've read in an internet forum.

+1
I don't know where you got that the girl had a psychiatric condition and taking medications either, Betty. She behaves like a typical rude 12 year old. I still remember my poor grade 8 Orchestra student teacher. Some obnoxious kids in my class were continually rude to her and she got marked down on her evaluation because she yelled at us.

It may be useful to have the parent sit in on a lesson, and see if there is then a change of behaviour.

If the child misbehaves, and the parent does not back you up, then I would respectfully suggest they look for an alternative teacher.

Seems most has been said already.

What you need to know is WHAT she wants to learn and what she wants to do for that. Then see if you can help her with that. Just ask her about it.

It is not necessarily your job to teach her to behave but you could see that as a challenge for yourself.

My other impressions are
1. She is testing you by being rude.
2. She maybe just has a friend that can play piano and wants that too now. She needs to be able to play a showpiece urgently, not next year.

Oh my. This thread seems to be fading.

I would recommend electroshock therapy. Take it from me. It works wonders.

Oh, for the twelve year old I mean.

Santa Clara Valley Medical Center is a world leader in electroshock therapy
(no kidding). I noticed Betty referencing Santa Clara. Missed opportunity?

Biff

Biff, you funny witster, you!!!

Oh, and while you're visiting, do you remember what culture I was referring to? I was waiting politely for that update so that I'd know what on earth I was talking about. Thanks.

I actually have to update the last lesson on a new thread, in the event most of those who posted on this one do not check back, like us, Biff!

Elissa,

I hadn't been back to this thread until lately.

You said:

“It's a cultural issue for sure: she has been raised to be rude."

You did not say that the child lacked culture. You said it was a cultural issue.
It sounded loaded to me.

But I probably took it that way because shortly after I was born my parents sat
down at the kitchen table and decided that they would raise me to be rude.

They discussed my capabilities and decided that they had two choices. One was
that I could be rude and the other was that I could be a very bitter person.
They chose rude and then carefully cultivated that quality in me.

Biff

And thank goodness they did! I can't imagine the the bitter version of you would be quite so entertaining.

Biff, I'm still way in the dark - I genuinely have no idea what you could be referring to, so.... Although maybe you use the term 'cultural' in a different way than I do? Well, obviously, but I'm not sure what you mean by it, or that you understand what I mean by it.

A parenting *decision* to raise rude children doesn't always work out so well, either, in my experience, whereas many kinds of parenting can certainly hinder children developing social skills. When a child is raised where rudeness to others is tolerated the child then has none of the normal control mechanisms which we associated with maturity.

Now no one pretend that it's not really hard to raise emotionally mature children, but at the very least children should be taught how to behave in a civil manner.

When parents don't create the conditions under which children can develop manners and maturity they are, by default, raising rude children.

In any case, you were clearly thinking of something else, goodness knows what.

My take on what Biff Baxter was saying was that "children/adolescents from cultures who have a deep respect for teachers" implies that there are cultures that do not have deep respect for teachers. Instead of saying that rudeness is bred from lack of culture, the statement implies that it's the culture that breeds children who have no respect for teachers.

So I take it that Biff was poking fun, saying that his parents decided to raise a rude child because he "belongs to a culture that likes rudeness" - kind of an exaggeration to the extreme of a "culture that do not have deep respect for teachers".

At least that's how I thought of it as a joke and I laughed.

You can be perfectly polite and not come from a culture which has a reverence for education!

It is probably my lack of education that prevented me from knowing that.

Biff

Platitudinal bloviations?