I didn't mean to extend this thread still longer! (Forgive me.) I look forward to learning more about, and hearing more of, these temperaments. I do hope that eventually something resembling an anthology of these temperaments is possible, whether at a meeting or in a book\journal issue.

..."I didn't mean to extend this thread still longer! (Forgive me.)"...

It was my intention to extend this thread, in any case, make it a very very very long thread, long like the many decades of frustration on tuners part for not being able to tune 12th root of two ET, very long like the age-old attraction for "pure" zero beating untuneable intervals.

..."I look forward to learning more about, and hearing more of, these temperaments. I do hope that eventually something resembling an anthology of these temperaments is possible, whether at a meeting or in a book\journal issue."...

Let's see, Bill Bremmer opened to the idea of an article about Chas on the PTG's Journal, perhaps he can conferm.

In any case, keep in touch and you'll find more and more material, and soon or later a video may be available (only with Isaac though, so I will not look so small!). As for the anthology, more frequently it comes...posthumous, but nowadays we have the web.

Regards, a.c.

I'm eagerly following this thread, it's great to see an update to the theory of tuning that applies well to the modern piano in practice. Good work, Alfredo.

..."see an update to the theory of tuning that applies well to the modern piano in practice."...

This may well be how I should have started this Topic.

It is the story of few small numbers, all wanting to give in to one:+1.

Thanks for sharing. Are you a tuner?

Regards, a.c.

.

Hello ALfredo !

Little time those days, but I'll work on the translation of the basic article...


The recordings are in fact useful to compare the tuning with tempered intervals and the one with "pure" 12ths. Then ecah may choose depending it own inclinaison.


The reaction of some colleagues is the same than mine, till today.

Mr Stopper should give the method to tune it by ear, as your basis are in the neighbors of the same "stretch" to speak as tuners
!.
Then we can decide for a fight in 3 rounds (Ill manage the tickets !)


Yes our colleague is a tuner in Britany, studying tuning, he is lucky more informations availeable today !.


Its getting to quiet and polite there. could we have some action ? !!

For any further conversation with me call on the 08000-45-48-47-77 and note the code (12 Euros the 1 min call)

Hello Isaac,

Let me tell our colleagues how nice it was meeting you in Paris. And right from the rendez-vous point, that peace of work with all those whatches piled up, suggesting the dissonance amongst those still minute hands and people fast moving around, running people witnessing still time, for once the other way around. Any idea why is that station called San Lazare?

It is very generous of you working at the translation of Chas article, I wish I could help and show you what is left of my studies...so much laughing with my sister every time I displayed my maccheroni Francais...

..."The recordings are in fact useful to compare the tuning with tempered intervals and the one with "pure" 12ths. Then ecah may choose depending it own inclinaison."...

About inclination and propensity, once I asked Stopper: if you tune pure 12ths, where do you think the piano will settle? He never answered. More recently he himself wrote in PW that pure 12ths tuning makes the tuning last longer...and I wonder if he was referring to the same concept of mine (for centre strings), i.e. you tune pure 12ths and you end up...gaining Chas. On this, I would again ask Kent Swafford (using Stopper's ETD) to record chromatic 12ths and 15ths right at the end of his own only-pure tuning, and also a week later, and two weeks later...it would be a good chance for evaluating the piano's "inclination", yes?

..."The reaction of some colleagues is the same than mine, till today."...

Do you mean no alchool, no smoke and Japanese food?

..."Mr Stopper should give the method to tune it by ear, as your basis are in the neighbors of the same "stretch" to speak as tuners !"...

Yes, I wonder why he has not provided. After all, he may well know that practical tunings is what tuners need to compare, so having a chance to achieve (aurally) what no ETD can ever gain.

..."Then we can decide for a fight in 3 rounds (Ill manage the tickets !)"...

Mmm...pure 3 again? Can we make it in 4 rounds? The 3rd round a little delta-shorter (there we need suspense), and the fourth little delta-longer (so we can finish in beating surplace).

..."Yes our colleague is a tuner in Britany, studying tuning, he is lucky more informations availeable today !"...

I agree, no more beats negation opens to a more relaxed approach, to the actual chance of enjoying beats...and turning our tuning lever with no fear.

..."Its getting to quiet and polite there. could we have some action ? !!"...

In a while I'll have to post again about Chas unique coherence, something may happen then.

..."For any further conversation with me call on the 08000-45-48-47-77 and note the code (12 Euros the 1 min call)"...

Wow, what did you record in that first minute?

Best regards, Alfredo.

.

Bill, you kindly write (Topic: My Piano in EBVT III):

...“Frankly, quite some time ago I gave up on following your threads. I cannot understand the math and I find your English barely understandable and therefore difficult to read.”...

Please, excuse my straight style, here in Sicily we say: the merciful doctor will turn banality into a bad disease.

For many reasons I'm sorry. I am still available for explaining Chas maths, but your difficulties may derive from lake of interest on your part.

You find my English barely understandable, and it must be true, though I tend to relate your difficulties to your approach more.

...“I am sorry but to this day, I do not know what "CHAS" means.”...

I'm sorry too, your statement tastes like an abstruse game to me.

...”I do get the idea that you tune in ET...”...

Correct.

...”and that you stretch the octaves in a particular way”...

Yes Bill, I stretch the octaves so that the octaves beat rate is progressive too, like RBIs, this opens to beat synergy. Actually, all intervals are stretched for gaining the most resonant and euphonious condition. Are you interested in synergy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synergy

And in Tensegrity?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tensegrity

...”but that is about all I understand.”...

True? I do not know. Say it is true, as a teacher/examiner you could investigate more about tuning (O).

...“The same goes for the Stopper tuning.”...

This is a shame (O), since you have met Stopper, you could/should have gone deeper. And if I were you, I would take the chance to compare my tunings with colleagues, more than customers.

...”Whatever difference there may be between the way you stretch the octaves and the way Herr Stopper does seems to me to be quite small and virtually indistinguishable.”...

The same could be said about small differences in UTs, surely you would not like that, can it be a point? In actual tuning, the sum of many small differences can make a big difference and this, depending on the context, can be very relevant. I'd never teach approximation.

...”Yes, I liked the way Stopper's tuning sounded; it makes the piano sound crisp and clear. From what I have heard of your tunings, I certainly find nothing objectionable. However, when I played two recent examples that were posted, a CHAS tuning and a "standard" tuning, I frankly could not tell the difference.”...

Well, some do, some don't. In any case, you have had more Chas samples by now.

..."Both of you seem to feel that you have found the ultimate solution for tuning the piano.”...

This statement may be misleading. Is maybe that what you assumed? About Stopper's only-pure I'd let him say and, if you can, please make a distinction.

About me, I'm trying to share a new approach to the sound scale. Chas ET model is the end of the commas conflict, in a 12 semi-tonal scale and it opens to microtonal scales. Then, I suggest to always separate theory from tuning practice.

..."You want to prove somehow with math that it is valid and I have no argument with that but I personally cannot understand what the math I have seen tries to portray, so it is lost on me.”...

About music and maths interrelations I don't need to say, it is up to you wanting to understand or not, and you'd find plenty of literature. If I were you, I would not submit to simple fractions.

...”In any case, the difference in the way ET sounds, stretched very little, to moderately, to the most it could be only seems to yield very subtle nuances of difference.”...

Yes, so that you understand, subtle nuances similar to the one Serkin himself refers to.

...”Now, I did arrive at the conclusion about stretch in ET long ago as I have said. Stretching the temperament octave to a compromise between a 4:2 and a 6:3 octave, then causing an equal compromise between double octaves and octave and 5ths seemed to be ideal for me.”...

You should know, ET is not meant to be “ideal” for you only, it is meant to release a geometrical progression, ideal in that it gains “natural” proportions. I linked on this, but were you interested?

...”Many people, technicians and pianists alike expressed voluntarily how beautiful the octaves I tuned sounded.”...

No doubt about this.

...“As I had written to you long ago privately, I seemed to be able to turn the two problems in tuning, inharmonicity and the comma, against each other in a favorable way by using that approach. It reduced the "noise" inherent in tuning. It made the piano sound beautiful and clear.”...

I agree, so much so that I've tried to explain you why that can happen, but you seem to prefer “mindless” tuning, a kind of naivety that I cannot explain. Tuning EB 12ths and 15ths can somehow correct the temperament approximations. Any UT can be corrected by resorting to EB 12ths and 15ths, and Chas, nine months ago, could explain you why.

...”It turns out that this is the way most of the best tuners tune today whether they arrive at those results the way I did or not.”...

Most of the best tuners? Do you mean in USA? Have they written on this? Any name? You mentioned Steve Fairchild as your mentor, and I firmly believe he could profit from equal beating. Anyway, (O) if you want to overtake an “attempt” or “casual” level, you need to gain the maximum degree of consciousness.

...”Most technicians, pianists and music educators still believe firmly in ET as the best and/or only way to tune the piano.”...

When you understand what a natural geometric progression is, you'll also understand the “all the way” route for musicians, composers and technicians through centuries, and why we have been striving for a natural optimum.

...“No matter what is done, piano tuning is ultimately a compromise.”...

What you say is true in practice, due to pianos singularities. But for what concerns theory, today I cannot agree. The first 12th root of two ET was again a compromise, in the sense of “doing the best of a bad job”, since a pure 2:1 ratio was favored. Chas ET is an “Optimum”, and all partial ratios can now contribute proportionally.

Today for me, practical tuning is a trial of truth, the truth returned by beats, beats like rhythm, the same true rhythm that is played in music. Rhythmic synergy is what musicians go for, when playing together, synergy is what we grow up with, and what we can establish with beats when tempering.

...“Stretching ET to the point where the tempering of the 5ths is apparently hidden is one compromise, yes and it does yield its advantages and disadvantages. People can become accustomed to that sound and they can become fixated on that one sound being the one and only acceptable sound.”...

It should not be you talking about fixations. Actually, this is what maths are also meant for, to help you separate a personal fixation from a “fact”, a reality that can be objectively described and eventually shared.

...”Everyone already knows I have found another compromise.”...

Everyone? Don't say. Me? Yes. I think I told you that, like EBVT I, II, III, you may find many other compromises, I think as many as each single individual, should personal preferences be of any value. But again, if we had room for ever different/singular preferences, why promoting EBVT as the best compromise? Sorry, my logic does not help me.

...“I am in the minority, yes. Most people are skeptical about it. Some people reject it outright, some without ever hearing it. That does not hinder me because I have enough people who are interested to continue. Condemning what I do with ridicule and mockery however only invites the same in return. I recall the admonition, "If you can't say something nice, it is better to say nothing at all".”...

Have you stopped wanting to learn? I would not go for “something nice”, but relevant, possibly in scientific terms.

...“Therefore, I am not really interested in debating, analyzing, confirming or refuting which amount of stretch applied to ET is the ultimate solution. I already have my own idea about that but since I don't tune in ET, it is a moot point for me.”...

Bill, I can justify ignorance as a phenomenon, never as a choice.

If you ever really cared, you could find someone able to translate this quasi-English of mine into the most correct English. Then, if you preferred a practical demonstration, we could still try to arrange for that, then saving so many words. BTW, any news about that generous invitation? Any possible date?

Regards, a.c.

CHAS Tuning MP3 (Granpianoman) on a Steinway S (5’ 1”, 155 cm)
http://www.box.net/shared/od0d7506cv

Hello anybody .

Here are new samples :

Just recorded major and minor chords after a tuning on a vertical piano (Hoffmann 124 - 1985)

minor : http://www.box.net/shared/m03a2zgi9e

Major : http://www.box.net/shared/ndift3y4qd

Lately I've been also tuning very old pianos and forte using the same approach. I will post recordings , one of the advantages is a good stability, which is a real luxury on those instruments.

Isaac,

I really like the balance of the CHAS ET. Open, but still together harmonically over the keyboard. I need to learn how to tune ET like this!

Hi all

Here is that Chopin duo recorded on a 1843 "pianino" Pleyel (birdcage action, wood frame).


[url=http://www.box.net/shared/reu6ry9a77][/url]

The place was intended for movies so the acoustic is really dull.

What I noticed is that the justness was easy to catch for the cellist.



Last piece of the concert, and the piano have slighty moved (the bass strings wounded on brass !)

Interesting experience, I was not expecting the piano to stay playable in fact !.



Pianist : Aya akuyama, Cellist: Jerome Huille.

The piano is not really at its best level but that was the only one having the bottom C so the pianist choose it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tensegrity

I like that one indeed !

I have a recording of the Schott Viennese pianoforte 1833, wooden frame of course) that played in an opera, then supported a 100 km moving and was used on the next day without a complete tuning.

The piano is amazingly just.

So there is more than just numbers or a good ability with the tuning hammer .

I'll post the record.

Here are those links :

exerps of Beethoven sonatas piano violin.

The piano is a Scott forte dating 1833 - viennese action, leathered hammers, no iron frame of course.

What is amazing is how well it standed a moving in a little van on 100 km, no time for the tuning before the concert, only a few unisons have been tweaked (I was not there in fact)
It have been tuned twice the day before , raising from 225 to 230 Hz. (difficult to tune with those rectangular pins and T handle !)

http://www.box.net/shared/x5racjdiyf

http://www.box.net/shared/6f25atlga3


To me the Chas tuning showed there its coherence and good equilibrium. The violonist have no difficulties finding the pitch.

A little concert in the Germany house of the Cite Universitaire in Paris.


p.s I of course don't pretend the piano is perfectly tuned !

Isaac, a few words, just to avoid advertising tones.

Your recordings sound to me very enjoyable and balanced, what a pleasure.

Then, I don't think it was Chas merit, but yours. Chas can only be a reference, for all the rest...Thank you.

Alfredo.

The second one, "audio track 5" is particularly good, despite the distance of the piano from the mic.

Which sonata is that?

I dont wish to "pollute" the thread, but just get the "Cordier" pure 5th method used by my colleague .

He use an octave at 0.8 bps (4:2 test), and synchronim between the M6 and the 17th to "proove" the "pure" 5th. of course all RBI progressive.

synchronism used : M6 and the M3 ex A3 F#4 with C4 E4 (3half steps above the bass note of the M6)

I'll translate the temperament method if someone wish to try it, but only with those bases one can get there yet. because of the use of the parials match tests, as 4:2 and 3:2 the result, frequency wise, probably does not really relate exactly to the theory. But as I understand it he modified a little the original method, avoiding some of the tests proposed by Cordier.

1° accord de l'octave LA2-LA3 à 0,8 Bat/sec
2° accord de la quinte LA2-MI3 avec le synchronisme sixte-dixième
3° contrôle de la quarte ainsi formée LA2-RE3 qui bat en principe à 1,7 Bat/sec
4° accord de la quinte SOL2-RE3 idem qu'en 2°
5° contrôle de la sixte SOL2-MI3
6° accord de la tierce SIb2-RE3 en la faisant battre comme la sixte obtenue en 5°
7° accord quartes SO2-DO3 et DO3-FA3 respectivement à 1,5 et 2 Bat/sec avec , au passage , contrôle tierce DO3-MI3
8° accord de la quarte FA2-SIb2 à 1,3 Bat/sec
9° contrôle tierce FA2-LA2 et sixte FA2-RE3
10° contrôle de l'octave FA2-FA3 qui bat en principe à 0,6 Bat/sec
11° accord quartes SI2-MI3 et FA#2-SI2 respectivement à 1,9 et 1,4 Bat/sec
12° contrôle tierces FA#2-LA#(SIb)2 progressive par rapport à FA2-LA2 et SOL2-SI2
13° accord quarte SIb2-MIb3 1,8 Bat/sec avec contrôle , au passage , de tierce SI2-RE#3(MIb3) et contrôle sixte FA#2-RE#3 progressive par rapport à sixtes obtenues en 9° et en 5°
14° accord tierce LA2-DO#3 par progression de rapidité avec tierce SIb2-RE3 obtenue en 6° et/ou par synchronisme sixte-tierce (FA#2-RE#3 avec LA2-DO#3)
15° accord de LAb2 par progression tierce entre SOL2-SI2 et LA2-DO#3 et/ou par quarte SOL#(LAb)2-DO#3
16° contrôle synchronisme sixte-tierce entre LA2-FA3 et SI2-RE#(MIb)3

notes names : French terminology (mean an octave above to have the Anglo saxon usual names)

Isaac,

thanks a lot for posting the Cordier's pure 5ths sequence.

...But as I understand it he modified a little the original method, avoiding some of the tests proposed by Cordier."...

Is this the modified version?

How do you expand this temperament?

To All: Happy (*) Easter

Hi Alfredo !
I have to ask what differs from the original method proposed by Serge Cordier (I lost the book "Piano bien temperé et justesse orchestrale")

I believe that he did not mind the differnce between a 3:2 and a 6:4 5th, and proposed a synchronism between m3 and M3 within the 5ths , with at the same time synchronism between 10th and 17th. the 2 checks are not providing similar results.

For what I know the tuning is expanded with 10 ths and 17 ths progressiveness, with at the same time the 5th checked (I suppose).

I've find that tuning so strong that he hide the piano "natural harmony", to my ears. As I've always have been tuning "in the piano spectra" as many tuners that state that "the piano tells you" , I perceive a too strong construction as something that push the envelope, but at the same time take precedence on what I perceive as "natural harmony" indeed that may sound obscure, it is may be only due to the very strong habit of hearing tempered intervals, but it is.

SO I liked the Chas approach also because the tempering is saved (?) In fact it is even in Cordier despite what is said, a pure interval being something non existent at the piano.
BTW in classical harmony, the 5th is considered as a poor interval, too bland, and it is avoided in the chord progressions, as possible, inversions are used.



Happy **********, I am back to my chocolate eggs !

Isaac,

does he only use the test for 12ths - not the M6-M10 test?

'SIb2' is A#3, right? This is the note that is named slightly different from the solfege I learned as a kid at school (rusty, but it's there somewhere.. )

Yes, same thing for me. Equal-beating 12ths/15ths seems like my upper tolerance limit, I get harmonically uncomfortable with a wider tuning than that (as you know through discussions here).

Neither am I sure why this is, but I'm glad I'm not the only one

PS my pure 12ths tuning is a little over a week old now, and it's settling in... with unisons adjusted, most 12ths are not pure anymore, but closer to equal-beating 12ths/15ths! I'm going to check the 2 weeks old pure 12ths tuning at the conservatory on tuesday, and see if the same thing is happening there.

Kamin, I can easily translate this into North American terminology although it will take a little time. I'll see how quickly I can do it. I remember we has discussed doing this two or three years ago.

Here is the English translation of the Cordier ET with pure 5ths sequence. I put the French in Italics and the ENglish in bold face for clarity.

Cordier Equal Temperament with Pure Fifths Sequence

1° accord de l'octave LA2-LA3 à 0,8 Bat/sec
1. Tune the A3-A4 octave to 0.8 beats per second wide.
2° accord de la quinte LA2-MI3 avec le synchronisme sixte-dixième
2.Tune the 5th A3-E4 pure using the M6-M10 check.
3° contrôle de la quarte ainsi formée LA2-RE3 qui bat en principe à 1,7 Bat/sec
3. Check the resultant A3-D4 4th which should beat at 1.7 beats per second wide.
4° accord de la quinte SOL2-RE3 idem qu'en 2°
4. Tune the G3-D4 5th pure (as in step 2).
5° contrôle de la sixte SOL2-MI3
5. Check the G3-E4 6th.
6° accord de la tierce SIb2-RE3 en la faisant battre comme la sixte obtenue en 5°
6. Tune the A#3-D4 M3 equal beating to the M6 in step 5.
7° accord quartes SO2-DO3 et DO3-FA3 respectivement à 1,5 et 2 Bat/sec avec , au passage , contrôle tierce DO3-MI3
7. Tune the G3-C4 and C4-F4 4ths at 1.5 and 2.0 beats per second respectively while checking the resultant C4-E4 M3.
8° accord de la quarte FA2-SIb2 à 1,3 Bat/sec
8. Tune the F3-A#3 4th at 1.3 beats per second wide.
9° contrôle tierce FA2-LA2 et sixte FA2-RE3
9. Check the F3-A3 M3 and the F3-D4 M6.
10° contrôle de l'octave FA2-FA3 qui bat en principe à 0,6 Bat/sec
10. Check the F3-F4 octave which should beat at 0.6 beats per second wide.
11° accord quartes SI2-MI3 et FA#2-SI2 respectivement à 1,9 et 1,4 Bat/sec
11. Tune the B3-E4 and F#3-B3 4ths respectively at 1.9 and 1.4 beats per second.
12° contrôle tierces FA#2-LA#(SIb)2 progressive par rapport à FA2-LA2 et SOL2-SI2
12. Check the progression of the F3-A3, F#3-A#3 and G3-B3 M3s.
13° accord quarte SIb2-MIb3 1,8 Bat/sec avec contrôle , au passage , de tierce SI2 RE#3(MIb3) et contrôle sixte FA#2-RE#3 progressive par rapport à sixtes obtenues en 9° et en 5°
13. Tune the A#3-D#4 4th at 1.8 beats per second wide while checking the resultant B3-D#4 M3 progression compared to the M6s formed in steps 5 and 9.
14° accord tierce LA2-DO#3 par progression de rapidité avec tierce SIb2-RE3 obtenue en 6° et/ou par synchronisme sixte-tierce (FA#2-RE#3 avec LA2-DO#3)
14. Tune the A3-C#4 M3 by progressive beat rate from the A#3-D4 M3 formed in step 6 or by M6-M3 comparison (F#2-D#4 M6 with A3-C#4 M3).
15° accord de LAb2 par progression tierce entre SOL2-SI2 et LA2-DO#3 et/ou par quarte SOL#(LAb)2-DO#3
15. Tune the G#2 by M3 beat rate progression between G3-B3 and A3-C#4 and/or by tuning the G#3-C#4 4th.
16° contrôle synchronisme sixte-tierce entre LA2-FA3 et SI2-RE#(MIb)3
16. Check the M3-M6 relationship of the B3-D#4 M3 and G#3-F4 M6 for quasi equal beating.

Great work, Bill!

Thanks so much Bill for that work, yes I recall I have send you the link to that Cordier discussion a few years ago.

I asked my friend how he expands the temperament, sor her is his answer (a little more work for you Bill , good that you learned French !)

Pour les prolongations vers octaves graves et aigues très simples , simplissime même :

Cibles ou targets : sortie vers aigus : do3-do4 1bat/sec , do4-do5 2bats/sec , do5-do6 4bats/ sur les très bons pianos , un poil plus (5-6) sur les pianos moins bons (là il faut de l'oreille musicale pour bien juger) , ensuite accélération exponentielle des bats dans la dernière octave .... Bien entendu le tout TRES progressif entre les cibles ! Je suis tellement habitué que je peux régler dans l'absolu une octave prise au hasard Of course , contrôle systématique des quintes qui se forment au fur et à mesure et elles doivent être toutes sans battement ! Sur les très bon pianos 12° obtenues automatiquement sans battement presque jusqu'en haut ; sur les autres pianos : bonnes jusque vers lab 60 après ça bat lentement entre plus ou moins 0,7 à 2 (ça dépend du piano), ensuite les bats se stabilisent (plafonnent). Entre fa3 et la3 je me sers des quartes (progressives , plus ou moins en les plafonnant suivant l'état de la quarte la2-re3 , plus ou moins lente , obtenue lors de la réalisation de la partition) en plus des octaves pour bien calibrer en combinant avec l'écoute des dixième jusque vers fa4 ...
Vers le grave utilisation :
1° des quartes jusque la1 env
2° des octaves dont il faut savoir apprécier la bonne lenteur (les quartes progressives et les quinte bien droites aident évidemment)
3° des quinte bien pures (du moins autant que le piano le permet à cet endroit)
4° écoute progressivité des sixtes et des tierces jusque vers le même La1 ; au delà 10° et 17° .

Au delà la1 quintes bien pures et octaves cassées écoutées avec autant de priorité l'une que l'autre.
Vers le grave 12° plus ou moins pures suivant qualité du piano . Pures sur les très bons , très très lentes sur les autres suivant état des cordes filées et qualité de la transition corde filées-cordes acier ... Là on rencontre souvent des discontinuités aux passages des cordes ... Preuve presque certaine de l'irrégularité de la progression de l'inh dans ce secteur ... :roll:

About the 12ths stability , he stated :

Il est absolument clair que les 12° suivant leur état initial pourront donner l'impression d'une stabilité incertaine ... Seulement la 12° semble avoir au piano une assez grande plasticité suivant le lieu de la tessiture ...


It seem clear that depending of their initial condition the 12 ths may give the impression of some instability. But semm to me that the twelve, at the piano have a somewhat large plasticity, depending of the placement in the scale...


SO for what I understand my colleague is tuning a real Cordier (because of the speed of doubles and tripes octaves. he may have changed the sequence and sequence checks, but those bps rates speak to me as the Cordier sign (more or well accepted depending of the instruments). A recording is promised ....

PS : above : C3-C4 = C3-C4 (not in French terminology where A0 is A-1)

PS What is interesting too , is that my colleague tune also standard ET, and he is organ player in churches, very used to the classical ET.

BTW he did not mention what is a "pure 5ths". When listening in the basses I suggest that there is a trade off between 3:2 and 6:4 ,

more probably the 3:2 is what considered the good relation as being the most audible beat most of the time.

Kamin, that translation will take a little while longer. I won't have time for it today but I may tomorrow. The problem is with some jargon that I don't quite understand. I am not sure what is meant by the "stability" of octaves. In English, when we talk about stability, it means whether or not something stays in tune. Do I take "stability" in this sense to mean whether or not an octave is perceived as "pure" (beatless)?

Also, in the following phrase, the last word is incomprehensible to me:

"Preuve presque certaine de l'irrégularité de la progression de l'inh dans ce secteur ... :roll: "

What I get from it is this:

"Almost certain proof of irregularity in the progression of inharmonicity in this area ..." but then this "...:roll:" is incomprehensible to me. is he using the English word, "roll"? If so, what to the colon marks (:) on either side of it mean? If he is talking about a "roll" in the octaves, I think I can decipher it.

It seems to me that this French is not very well written. He seems to use two or three terms to describe the same thing sometimes. While that is OK, the whole thing seems to use a lot of jargon and abbreviations, some words left out which confuse me. This, of course is not unlike the way many people write in English. I, however have spent a great amount of time and effort trying to make the description I write as clear as possible and avoid the use of jargon. The abbreviations I use are necessary as they would be in French. As long as we all know what they mean, it is not a problem.

For example, a new reader many not understand "ETD", so I often write it out "Electronic Tuning Device (ETD)" first and use the abbreviation afterward. The system we use for naming the octaves was first advocated by Helmholtz. Dr. Sanderson used it for his first ETD and all of the other ETD manufacturers and software creators in the USA used the same one. I understand that in Europe, they think of "octave 1" or the "first octave" as beginning with the lowest note A, not the lowest C.

So, what does this phrase mean?:

"sur les autres pianos : bonnes jusque vers lab 60 "

I presume it to mean:

"on other pianos: good to about G#5 "

If so, you understand why I am a bit confused by the terminology and it will take me some time to sort it all out.

Hello, yes Bill I guess I should have cleared more the text.

I will answer to your questions. BTW "roll is some sign for a smiley , dont try to translate it !!

Best

Sorry for the capitals, a fats way to have my comments clear.

Yes this is written in language as it is talked, I will have a look to translate tonight (I should have done it before).

Best regards

Isaac

Thanks, Kamin but I will be glad to do it. You answered what I needed to know. I think I can do a better job of turning the French into North American English. I would not presume to be able to translate very well what I have written into French but I can translate the French to English. It is all about idiomatic usage. I will have time for it tomorrow in the morning.

Bill,

we have yet another definition of the octaves, and because we've gotten our music terminology mostly from Germany, I think they might be using the same system (Maybe German forum members could give feedback on this?)

This is slightly off-topic, but just for curiosa.... These are our octaves:

C0-B0 = Subcontra octave
C1-B1= Contra octave
C2-B2 = Grand octave
C3-B3 = Small octave
C4-B4 = Octave 1
C5-B5 = Octave 2

... and so on. And, oh, The note B is still traditionally called H here, but that is slowly changing due to the musical influence from the US.

Thank you all for what you are adding.

More on octave designations:

http://www.music.vt.edu/musicdictionary/appendix/octaveregisters/octaveregisters.html

Regards, a.c.