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#1413550 - 04/08/10 12:25 PM Is it possible to modulate without....
Claude56 Offline
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Registered: 03/02/09
Posts: 469
Is it possible to modulate to all different keys without the listener being able to detect a change in key?

I've been trying to accomplish this task lately for writing music, and I have had a hard time trying to do this.



This is what I have done so far in like the key of E Major and I want to transition to F#Maj7 without a listener noticing the change:

F#Min7 B7 EMaj7 G#Min7 Then suddenly C#7 G#Min7 C#7 F#Maj7


then it would go A#Minor G#Minor



But the problem is with distant keys, Like modulating E Major to F Major, but if I modulated from E Major to F Major, the listener would notice the change.





Edited by noSkillz (04/08/10 12:26 PM)

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#1413578 - 04/08/10 01:24 PM Re: Is it possible to modulate without.... [Re: Claude56]
Kreisler Offline
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Registered: 11/27/02
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Loc: Iowa City, IA
Depends a lot on the listener. If you have someone educated with a good ear, they could detect a modulation no matter how well written it is.

For a more casual listener, they might not notice something obvious.

Also, it's not just the chord progression you use - the melodic and rhythmic material makes a big difference as well.
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#1413581 - 04/08/10 01:29 PM Re: Is it possible to modulate without.... [Re: Kreisler]
Steve Chandler Offline
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Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 2024
Loc: Urbandale, Iowa
There are smooth modulations and there are abrupt modulations. Both are valid artistic choices depending on what you wish to accomplish. At this time you wish to work on smooth modulations. That's fine, but you'll never be able to make them unnoticeable unless what precedes is less firmly root around a particular tonal center. What I'm saying is the way to disguise a modulation is to disguise the tonal center prior to the modulation. Otherwise the first accidental will imply an obvious change of key, even if you're just going from C to G through a D7 chord.

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#1415350 - 04/11/10 04:26 PM Re: Is it possible to modulate without.... [Re: Steve Chandler]
iLikeChopinToo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 32
Quote:
Is it possible to modulate to all different keys without the listener being able to detect a change in key?
If a listener is astute he can detect anything.
If you mean whether it is possible without the sound of accidentals, I think no. But all accidentals does not sound like a key change. And it is definetely possible to change key undetected under the cover of accidentals. But you have to be very clever with the melody. Dim chords may be useful as well.

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#1415371 - 04/11/10 05:05 PM Re: Is it possible to modulate without.... [Re: iLikeChopinToo]
Johnny-Boy Offline
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Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 661
Loc: PA
Why would you want to modulate if the listener can't detect it? Modulations are meant to be heard. They add new levels of pleasure for the listener. Be bold with your modulations!

John
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#1415755 - 04/12/10 10:22 AM Re: Is it possible to modulate without.... [Re: Johnny-Boy]
Nikolas Offline
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Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 2830
Loc: Europe
If you don't want the modulation to be heard you can just ditch it alltogether and come up with a new 'tonal' (or non tonal, or another) system where you just around whereever you want. And I'm not kidding.

Otherwise if you do set a tonality (E Major in your example), then the minute you step out of it, you're done: The listen will know. Unless you make very frequent modulations to the point that the listener will just disregard the modulation (so getting back to my initial point).
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#1415821 - 04/12/10 12:03 PM Re: Is it possible to modulate without.... [Re: Nikolas]
victor kam Offline
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Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 393
Loc: Malaysia
I would prefer to hear the modulation!! Why hide it?
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#1415837 - 04/12/10 12:46 PM Re: Is it possible to modulate without.... [Re: Claude56]
Vildbas Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/05/10
Posts: 12
Loc: Sweden
Hi no Skillz!

You could play around with the arpeggios of the E major chord (if your melody uses these notes) while moving the base up to F# and by that make some kind of F#11 chord. if you want you can then play a C#m6 chord (and continue the same arpeggios) before landing in F#major.

Of course it's easier if you let us hear smile idea, but this was what came up in my mind right now

Emil, Sweden
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#1415904 - 04/12/10 02:56 PM Re: Is it possible to modulate without.... [Re: Johnny-Boy]
Claude56 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/02/09
Posts: 469
Originally Posted By: Johnny-Boy
Why would you want to modulate if the listener can't detect it? Modulations are meant to be heard. They add new levels of pleasure for the listener. Be bold with your modulations!

John


Well, if you wanted to prolongate a certain "feeling" to a listener, then I suppose you would be limited to a certain number of chord progressions. Thus because you're limited to a set of chord progressions, you would naturally want to seek out different chord progressions so you can extend that "particular feeling". Thus if you want to retain a certain feeling, it is natural to seek out on ways you can modulate "smoothly", instead of just abruptly modulating to a non-related key. Some chord progressions can actually ruin the sound of a certain feeling if you use them in the wrong context.

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