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#1414532 - 04/09/10 09:19 PM Kawai CA63/93 owners: How did you decided?
wower Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/13/10
Posts: 242
Loc: Calgary
Simple quiestion: Now that there are a few more CA63 and CA93's in the wild, I am at the point to make the jump myself, but am wondering, besides price, how did owners CA93 decide to upgrade to the higher model? What criteria did buyers use?

I should add: At the moment, I find myself going back and forth between the two. Cash isn't super tight at the moment but it would be nice to save some money. I would like suggestions and insight from outside-the-box to make sure I'm looking at the decision from all angles.


Edited by wower (04/09/10 09:22 PM)
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#1414651 - 04/10/10 06:06 AM Re: Kawai CA63/93 owners: How did you decided? [Re: wower]
TADutchman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 760
Loc: Apeldoorn, The Netherlands
Hi wower,

As you know, there are several differences between the CA63 and CA93. For me the unique selling point of the CA93 (especially at this price level) is the advanced amplification and sound system (I tried many DP's over the last few Months and nothing comes close, except for the AvantGrand, albeit at a much higher price level). People tend to mention the soundboard at the back side of the CA93, but there is so much more going on: the soundboard also radiates to the front through openings (below the keyboard), effectively spreading the bass range. This works up to about 180Hz. From there 4 top mid-range speakers take over the range of 180Hz - 6kHz and 2 front tweeters come into action from 6kHz upwards. All-in-all this results in a much more acoustic like surround sound experience than the CA63, which 'only' has 2 tweeters and 2 woofers.

If you mainly play by headphones then this unique selling point of course is of less importance.
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#1414655 - 04/10/10 06:40 AM Re: Kawai CA63/93 owners: How did you decided? [Re: TADutchman]
Andree Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 248
Loc: Sweden
I agree with TADutchman. If you play without headphones most of the time, then the CA93 is a good choice. I also want to say, as an owner of the CA63, the speakers in the CA63 are very good and you can get a very dynamic sound out of it. Even though there's no soundboard in this piano I can feel the whole piano vibrating just like an acoustic. I have never played the CA93 however, but I would say that it's good enough even without soundboard.

You will be satisfied whichever you choose, as long as you choose KAWAI

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#1416226 - 04/13/10 03:45 AM Re: Kawai CA63/93 owners: How did you decided? [Re: Andree]
TADutchman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 760
Loc: Apeldoorn, The Netherlands
...one more consideration for the KAWAI CA93 is that this DP has a unique integration of improved features for a much lower price than its predecessor CA91, which soundwise is impossible to mimic with any practical combination of stage-piano and separate amplification + loudspeakers.
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#1416447 - 04/13/10 12:53 PM Re: Kawai CA63/93 owners: How did you decided? [Re: TADutchman]
wower Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/13/10
Posts: 242
Loc: Calgary
What I get from this feedback is that the improved sound system was more important than the slightly improved key action. How fast can you repeat keys on this keyboard anyway? Super fast? Fast enough for advanced players? Just under piano superstar fast? Can you play softly? (I had a lot of trouble playing pianissimo on the dealer demo DPs. I found the min volume no matter how softly I pressed quite high.) What about key repetition and pianissimo in general on other keyboards?
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#1416839 - 04/14/10 04:12 AM Re: Kawai CA63/93 owners: How did you decided? [Re: wower]
TADutchman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 760
Loc: Apeldoorn, The Netherlands
RM3 Key action and feel (ivory) of both CA63 and CA93 have improved considerably over the previous generations, AWA grand pro I & II (which arguably are already highly acclaimed, having wooden keys and sensors attached to the hammers instead of the keys).

The key action of the CA93 can give a little better control and feeling when playing pianissimo thanks to the let-off mechanism, but this is also depending on your playing style/technique and whether you are used to playing grands and/or uprights.

About key repetition: keys can be repeated faster than I can and want to play wink (I'm not even trying to set a WR, a comparison with other brands in this respect is therefore irrelevant). The touch sensitivity and dynamic range with very responsive action and ultra-smooth timbre variations are state of the art i.m.h.o.

I guess the standard touch settings simply have to be adjusted to your personal preference, which probably has not been done during the dealer demo. With the CA63/CA93 this is easy to do by either manually choosing a preset or automatically analysing your ppp -> fff touch.
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#1417197 - 04/14/10 03:04 PM Re: Kawai CA63/93 owners: How did you decided? [Re: TADutchman]
wower Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/13/10
Posts: 242
Loc: Calgary
Thank you. That’s food for thought. I knew the subtle differences in repetition on acoustics is really only a factor when a piano masters sits down to play a very demanding piece. Sounds like the CA63/93 will perform at an acceptable for me. That's good news about the adjustable touch curves. I totally forget that was an option for moden DPs.
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#1417765 - 04/15/10 09:50 AM Re: Kawai CA63/93 owners: How did you decided? [Re: wower]
worov Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/13/08
Posts: 109
Loc: Paris
Hi, everybody !

I have at last tried the CA-63 in a store in Paris. The Centre Chopin. It sells the CA-63 for 2199€ (bench and headphones are included in the price)


My opinions are highly subjectives and may differ from others.

I think it's a very good instrument. I could compare with CLP-380 and CLP 370 which were in the store too. Roland HP307 wasn't there though. But I have already tried that and don't like the action that much on ths DP.

The CA-51 was not in the store, so I could not compare the evolution between the two instruments. Too bad that could have been interesting. However, I have tried CA-51 about 6 months and thought it was one of the best DP out there.

The CA-63 has a very good sound. I like it a lot. I have tried both with speakers and headphones. I definitely prefer the sound coming from the headphones. Much more profound, I can hear more things this way.

I have been playing it for an hour, but I have not heard the cracking noise.


KAWAI James : I have a question :

The sound fades out a bit too quickly in my opinion. Give it a try on a acoustic : play a note fortissimo and keep your finger pressed on the key, the sound will last at least 15 seconds. That's the way it is on my upright piano.
On Kawai CA-63, after 8 seconds it has faded out. I have compared with Yamahe CLP-370 : the Yamha lasts a bit longer. Is it possible to regulate those things ?

It can be very important when playing polyphonic music. (I'm a great fan of Bach)

The action is very good too. It almost feels like a real piano. Maybe a bit too light for me, I would have prefered harder. It might be possible to regulate those things with some buttons. I have not checked all of these. But that's quite alright the way it is.

I intend to give it another try in a few weeks, but I have to tell that my first impression was very good.

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#1417935 - 04/15/10 01:19 PM Re: Kawai CA63/93 owners: How did you decided? [Re: worov]
sieg66 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/09/08
Posts: 138
Loc: paris
Yes it could feel harder using another touch curve, a personnal one. If you want to compare with the previous keyboard, the shop should have a CA 18, which use it.

For the note lenght, try the different piano sounds, you may find one that lasts more.

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#1418255 - 04/16/10 12:43 AM Re: Kawai CA63/93 owners: How did you decided? [Re: sieg66]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8370
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Hello worov,

Originally Posted By: worov
KAWAI James : I have a question :

The sound fades out a bit too quickly in my opinion. Give it a try on a acoustic : play a note fortissimo and keep your finger pressed on the key, the sound will last at least 15 seconds. That's the way it is on my upright piano.
On Kawai CA-63, after 8 seconds it has faded out. I have compared with Yamahe CLP-370 : the Yamha lasts a bit longer. Is it possible to regulate those things ?


I'm afraid it is not currently possible to adjust the length of decay used for the piano sound.

Kind regards,
James
x
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#1418272 - 04/16/10 02:35 AM Re: Kawai CA63/93 owners: How did you decided? [Re: Kawai James]
worov Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/13/08
Posts: 109
Loc: Paris
Sieg66, the only other Kawai I could find in the store was the CL25 which I did try. Very different from CA-63.


About the decay of the sound, I have tried mainly the sound "Concert Grand 1". As sieg66 says, I'll try the others on this matter and see if there is a difference.

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#1418304 - 04/16/10 05:37 AM Re: Kawai CA63/93 owners: How did you decided? [Re: worov]
TADutchman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 760
Loc: Apeldoorn, The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: worov
I have been playing it for an hour, but I have not heard the cracking noise.


That's because KAWAI has been listening to customer reports/requests very well and consequently released their firmware v1.06 a.s.a.p. I trust KAWAI for giving support to us customers by also working on future firmware updates.

Just check and see that they have a history of releasing updated firmware for older models too, which was also one of the criteria for my personal buying decision of the new KAWAI CA93 (and updating the firmware by using a USB connection couldn't be simpler).
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#1418308 - 04/16/10 06:03 AM Re: Kawai CA63/93 owners: How did you decided? [Re: TADutchman]
snazzyplayer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 983
Loc: Earth
I'd kind of like getting a digital piano that didn't need firmware updates, and that was already finished, instead of a work in progress. wink

Snazzy
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#1418309 - 04/16/10 06:13 AM Re: Kawai CA63/93 owners: How did you decided? [Re: snazzyplayer]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
That's not available. Either you get a DP with flaws that gets some firmware updates from time to time (hopefully getting the most annoying problems fixed) or you get a DP where you have to live with the flaws. And as a side comment to you, Snazzy smile also Yamaha DPs have flaws... wink
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#1418315 - 04/16/10 07:00 AM Re: Kawai CA63/93 owners: How did you decided? [Re: snazzyplayer]
TADutchman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 760
Loc: Apeldoorn, The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: snazzyplayer
I'd kind of like getting a digital piano that didn't need firmware updates, and that was already finished, instead of a work in progress. wink

Any DP is per definition 'work in progress' as there is a continuous quest going on: getting closer and closer to the real AP experience / responding to customer feature requests to some extent (your mileage may vary, depending on the manufacturer). Luckily, this is made possible by way of firmware updates. And effectively pushing new hardware to its limits takes some time, as you may know...
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#1418318 - 04/16/10 07:12 AM Re: Kawai CA63/93 owners: How did you decided? [Re: TADutchman]
snazzyplayer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 983
Loc: Earth
Originally Posted By: TADutchman


Any DP is per definition 'work in progress' as there is a continuous quest going on: getting closer and closer to the real AP experience / responding to customer feature requests to some extent (your mileage may vary, depending on the manufacturer). Luckily, this is made possible by firmware updates.


No, not "any" DP is a work in progress, but some are...I haven't needed to upgrade any of my pianos...and thankfully, Kawai has done the proper thing and fixed the issues with the instruments being discussed...still, they shouldn't have been released with those problems in the first place, if they were an actual "finished" instrument...getting rid of, or addressing problems, is not the same as adding features.

Snazzy
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#1418332 - 04/16/10 08:10 AM Re: Kawai CA63/93 owners: How did you decided? [Re: snazzyplayer]
TADutchman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 760
Loc: Apeldoorn, The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: snazzyplayer
...getting rid of, or addressing problems, is not the same as adding features.

That's right, but in both cases a firmware update can only successfully do the trick in combination with capable hardware.
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#1418335 - 04/16/10 08:12 AM Re: Kawai CA63/93 owners: How did you decided? [Re: snazzyplayer]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Kawai bashing, as always... bah

Why should Yamaha release new firmware releases for e.g. CLP-340 which have fixes included if there are no flaws?
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#1418345 - 04/16/10 08:39 AM Re: Kawai CA63/93 owners: How did you decided? [Re: mucci]
snazzyplayer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 983
Loc: Earth
Originally Posted By: mucci
Kawai bashing, as always... bah

Why should Yamaha release new firmware releases for e.g. CLP-340 which have fixes included if there are no flaws?


No not bashing at all, just casual conversation and discussion...you aren't a Kawai owner by any chance, or are you just naturally defensive? smirk

Yes, the CLP-340 wasn't quite finished either...deplorable when big companies like Yamaha and Kawai can't get it right...I don't own a CLP-340, so I wasn't aware...thanks for the info.

It's informed people like yourself that keep this great forum so interesting.


Snazzy
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#1418349 - 04/16/10 08:49 AM Re: Kawai CA63/93 owners: How did you decided? [Re: snazzyplayer]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Originally Posted By: snazzyplayer
No not bashing at all, just casual conversation and discussion...you aren't a Kawai owner by any chance, or are you just naturally defensive? smirk


Nooo way, don't you recognize my nickname? whome

Have a great weekend (at least here it's about 2 hours prior to start the weekend, and Munich airport is the only German airport that's still open due to being in the south and not yet being reached by this big ash cloud from Iceland)!
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#1418350 - 04/16/10 08:50 AM Re: Kawai CA63/93 owners: How did you decided? [Re: snazzyplayer]
TADutchman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 760
Loc: Apeldoorn, The Netherlands
Well Snazzy, if we also add Roland to the equation then it appears that the Top 3 DP manufacturers all use firmware updates as their current best practice method to further improve their products after market introduction. If you don't like that then you'd better buy an AP. People tend to love them, partly due to the fact that they never are/remain really perfect. smirk cool
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#1418357 - 04/16/10 09:02 AM Re: Kawai CA63/93 owners: How did you decided? [Re: TADutchman]
snazzyplayer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 983
Loc: Earth
Originally Posted By: TADutchman
Well, if we also add Roland to the equation then it appears that the Top 3 DP manufacturers all use firmware updates as their current best practice method to further improve their products after market introduction.


Personally, I think Kawai was fixing problems, as discussed in this thread, and others...getting rid of crackling noises and other troubles, is not what I call adding improvements...more like repairing problems.

You, no doubt, are a Kawai owner...I can understand your defensiveness...that's cool, and nothing to be ashamed of. wink

I already own an acoustic piano, a Steinway B, and apart from needing to tune it, which I dislike immensely, it is a rather nice piano.

However, I believe a Yamaha Avant Grand (next generation) will be my next major purchase....up until then, my humble Yamaha P-85 (which has needed no firmware repairs) will suffice nicely.


Snazzy
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#1418361 - 04/16/10 09:18 AM Re: Kawai CA63/93 owners: How did you decided? [Re: snazzyplayer]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Well, regarding P85...

http://www.audioforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26046

Okay, okay, it's not easy to find any flaw for P85 smile
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#1418365 - 04/16/10 09:26 AM Re: Kawai CA63/93 owners: How did you decided? [Re: snazzyplayer]
TADutchman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 760
Loc: Apeldoorn, The Netherlands
Snazzy, I find your generalising remarks about brand owners amusing, because it reminds me a bit of the ancient Commodore against Atari user wars, but at that time I was like 12 years old. By the way, is it even allowed to also own Yamaha gear? grin

Although I like the Avant Grand series (not the price), I have to warn you already now that the next generation will probably not be without any flaws during market introduction. This is because products are getting much more complex than your P85 sick wink
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#1418366 - 04/16/10 09:27 AM Re: Kawai CA63/93 owners: How did you decided? [Re: snazzyplayer]
CyberGene Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 701
Loc: Sofia, Bulgaria
Snazzy, P85 is uncomplicated digital piano, it has no damper pedal resonance, no string resonance, no multiple velocity samples, no key-off, no pedal up, no pedal-down. Actually it has only one interesting feature - stereo samples. That's why it is highly unlikely that something gets wrong with that single feature since it is a reliable technology from the early digital synthesizers of 1980-s and used for thousands of sounds, not just pianos. On the other hand, CA63 and more advanced pianos have a lot of piano-specific features which interact with each other and it is more likely that something gets uncaught during the quality assurance process since it involves quite complex scenarios. So, it's up to the personal preference:

- A simplistic piano with dated technology working flawlessly, with no need and hence no possibility to be updated.
- A realistic piano with modern technology that may eventually exhibit some flaws but it can be easiliy fixed and updated.

You chose the former, I would choose the latter. There is something for everybody smile An the world is happy place smile


Edited by CyberGene (04/16/10 09:33 AM)
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Current DP: Kawai ES7
Previous DP-s: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100

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#1418369 - 04/16/10 09:38 AM Re: Kawai CA63/93 owners: How did you decided? [Re: TADutchman]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
TADutchman, that reminds me of old days when I was young...

My very first keyboard back in 1985 was a CASIO (!) CZ101, which was great because it was one of the first with MIDI build in, and I connected it to my Atari 600XL (sic!) with a DIY MIDI interface, which was kind of tricky since there was almost no information about the technical specification. Those were the old days!

Next was the legendary Roland MT-32, which was a great piece of MIDI expander! Followed by Kawai K1, Korg M1, Roland JV-1010 and others.

Nowadays I only have software synths and some software pianos, other than my beloved Kawai CA63 as input device (it's such a great improvement over the Fatar Studiologic SL990). But currently I usually only play piano... that's most satisfying.

(Ooops, I sound like my own grandfather...)
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#1418376 - 04/16/10 09:46 AM Re: Kawai CA63/93 owners: How did you decided? [Re: snazzyplayer]
jmmec Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/02/10
Posts: 86
Loc: New Mexico (yes, USA!)
There is no such thing as a 'perfect software release' without hidden bugs or unintended interactions that lead to problems. Even multi-million dollar communication networks with 99.999% availability and reliability have software bugs that are regularly fixed and released as patches.

Mostly due to the internet, software companies can easily release fixes as problems are discovered. If Roland, Kawai, Yamaha, or ..., find a problem in their product, then I surely want (and expect) a fix. This is not "deplorable" behavior, but is rather a good way of doing business.
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#1418381 - 04/16/10 09:50 AM Re: Kawai CA63/93 owners: How did you decided? [Re: mucci]
snazzyplayer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 983
Loc: Earth
Originally Posted By: mucci
Well, regarding P85...

http://www.audioforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26046

Okay, okay, it's not easy to find any flaw for P85 smile


I've had no issues with MIDI...I use the P-85 to control my arranger/workstation.

The P-85 is rugged, and stands up to a lot of use...I've had no problems with crackling noises, or noisy loose keys...the former would render an instrument unplayable, while the later would just be inconvenient...I've had to deal with neither.

I get kidded about being a pro and using a beginners piano, like the P-85...until they hear it being played, especially through the Logitechs...it weighs only 25 lbs, and is a marvelous gigging instrument.

All the pedal noises and key off sounds that manufacturers add to the digital piano, were basically flaws in the acoustic pianos...I can live without them...we always tried to mask them as much as possible in the studio when recording an acoustic.

I like to to shut that racket off, if possible, on any digital I play...I didn't buy an electronic piano to hear the flaws they couldn't hide in an acoustic.


Snazzy
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Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)

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#1418385 - 04/16/10 09:56 AM Re: Kawai CA63/93 owners: How did you decided? [Re: snazzyplayer]
CyberGene Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 701
Loc: Sofia, Bulgaria
It sounds interesting to me as you described it. Could you post solo recordings you've done with it?
_________________________
http://www.myspace.com/evgenykumanov
Current DP: Kawai ES7
Previous DP-s: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100

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#1418393 - 04/16/10 10:03 AM Re: Kawai CA63/93 owners: How did you decided? [Re: snazzyplayer]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Originally Posted By: snazzyplayer
All the pedal noises and key off sounds that manufacturers add to the digital piano, were basically flaws in the acoustic pianos...I can live without them...we always tried to mask them as much as possible in the studio when recording an acoustic.

I like to to shut that racket off, if possible, on any digital I play...I didn't buy an electronic piano to hear the flaws they couldn't hide in an acoustic.


Agreed... but this doesn't apply to pedal down resonance and string resonance at all. This is a must-have for me. Without this a piano usually sounds quite sterile.
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#1418394 - 04/16/10 10:04 AM Re: Kawai CA63/93 owners: How did you decided? [Re: CyberGene]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Originally Posted By: CyberGene
It sounds interesting to me as you described it. Could you post solo recordings you've done with it?


I'm sure P85 sounds amazing - Yamaha is known for a very clear sound within a mix.
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#1418398 - 04/16/10 10:09 AM Re: Kawai CA63/93 owners: How did you decided? [Re: CyberGene]
snazzyplayer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 983
Loc: Earth
Originally Posted By: CyberGene
It sounds interesting to me as you described it. Could you post solo recordings you've done with it?


I don't post my stuff on a public forum...but you can easily hear the P-85 on YouTube by entering "Yamaha P-85" (without the quotation marks, of course}.

I've been using the arranger/workstation these past few months...it's a nice change from playing the piano only.

Snazzy
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Semper Gumby: Always flexible \:^)

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#1418490 - 04/16/10 01:28 PM Re: Kawai CA63/93 owners: How did you decided? [Re: wower]
jscomposer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 537
Loc: The Boogie Down
Been using the same DP for nearly 10 years. Never needed a firmware update. Gotta say it irks me when a company releases a DP and <***edited***> to make it work right.

Anyway, I'll get to try a CA63 within the next few days. Too bad the store doesn't also have a CA93.


Edited by BB Player (05/04/10 08:21 PM)
Edit Reason: Edited out profanity
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Joshua Seth plays Joshua Seth

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#1429389 - 05/04/10 05:30 AM Re: Kawai CA63/93 owners: How did you decided? [Re: jscomposer]
ArtVision Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 15
Loc: Ireland
Snazzy,

You can enjoy your flawless P85, myself playing P80 for 10 years,
I got used to its limitations, it is time to upgrade, don't you think?
I am going for Kawai CA63 or maybe CA93 thanks to many enthusiastic reviews on this forum.
For a quarter price of AvantGrand one could have three additional upgrades in Kawai CA line,
while AvangGarnd could stay unchanged like P85 for years if you find it flawless as well,
before committing just read about Yamaha GT2 and its problems with sound module.
By the way with your arranger/workstation setup, do you play any classical music?

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