Maybe. But if so, how come some younger piano players object to a pure 12ths stretch? If that tuning is ultimate, shouldn't that first encounter - according to your own logic - be a revelation instead of a moment of discomfort?

For reference, I list two links for comparison. This is in an attempt to give voice to the musicality of it all.

-------

Here is the link to Bach/Siloti in Stopperstimmung:
http://www.piano-stopper.de/dl/Bach.wma

... and here's that same piece as provided by Isaac (AKA Kamin), utilizing CHAS, I'd assume (please correct me Isaac if I'm wrong):
http://www.box.net/shared/98dd35abqv

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To me, the B minor chord harmony in the highest part (reaching D6) is coherent in the latter example, but uncomfortably high in Stopperstimmung.

Let me state that I consider both to be excellent tunings, accomplished by two exceptionally good tuners.

This not as a question of right and wrong, but more about how we perceive stretch differently. I am really curious about this, and like I said earlier - I think younger piano players (jazz as well as classical, those half my age...) favor less of a stretch than Stopperstimmung.

I'm thinking about setting up an A/B test for my students with these two recordings, but it would have to be carefully done in order not to trigger a biased response.

Patrick,

Thanks for the feedback on the temperament. The piano is a predominantly original 1917 O Steinway (my piano). I replaced the bass strings last year and the hammers were replaced with NY Steinway hammers about 15 years ago, but the piano was not played much for those 15 years. I did replace the dampers at the beginning of the year, too. Everything else about that piano is original, including the treble strings.

C-E does sound wide. So does F#-A#. That is perhaps a result of my inexperienced ears, but I did have to make some compromises when setting up EBVT III.

I set F3-F4 as close to a 4:2 as I could get it, but it also might be that some of the intervals moved as I was tuning other strings in the bearing section and out. I did not take the extra time to double check as I tuned unions. I did stretch as much as I could stand it this time. Usually, I don't do that - to a fault.

I've never heard of spotify...That CMaj Prelude can be ruined easily. I try not to ruin it.

Bill,
Thanks for your comments and encouragement!

Yes, the temperament of the piano does make the music sound different and it does have an effect on how the piano is played, at least in my mind. Surely it's not real, but if the piano is out of tune or simply tuned with a strange sounding temperament, it feels different, almost more difficult to play. The acoustics of the room also plays into it, too.

Traümerei is another short Schumann piece that is really very difficult to play well at all. I'll need more practice before I'd give it a go to record it. I am working on a few other pieces right now.

Below are the pieces I already posted indicated as EBVTIII, then underneath I posted a link to the same piece played on the same piano prior - a more equal temperament, at least as equal as I am capable. No question there are differences.

I also did some noodling in different keys, played one Charles Mingus piece, Good Bye Pork Pie Hat. The top pieces in EBVTIII, the bottom one in the same key was played prior to tuning the piano in EBVT III. So please go easy on me with those...

If I thoroughly haven't annoyed everyone with all this, I will play some standards and put them up to demonstrate the contrasts as I did here.

Thanks for all your suggestions and I hope you enjoy listening to the pieces and notice differences in the temperaments. I kept the improv pieces on the short side for that reason.

Glen

C Major Prelude BWV 846 EBVT III
http://www.box.net/shared/ylco4mlh58
C Major Prelude BWV 846 before
http://www.box.net/shared/45sqj83vi6

43 1 Db Major EBVT III
http://www.box.net/shared/0aedzyckn0
43 1 Db Major before
http://www.box.net/shared/hyuboaj34m

Schumann's Warum EBVTIII
http://www.box.net/shared/4hy7y28cdb
Schumann's Warum before
http://www.box.net/shared/nubj4vbxg2

Moonlight Sonata Mvt 1 C#-min EBVTIII
http://www.box.net/shared/vs4f6iit8r
Moonlight Sonata Mvt 1 before
http://www.box.net/shared/1ldt5fxu9n

F-min EBVT III
http://www.box.net/shared/xm0fa7dvmt
F-min Before
http://www.box.net/shared/nra1eyqev1

Good Bye Pork Pie Hat EBVT III
http://www.box.net/shared/2l1fk47g6i
GBPPH before
http://www.box.net/shared/btiko8zsx5

Db - Bbmin EBVT III
http://www.box.net/shared/pl77a3bt1f
Db - Bbmin before
http://www.box.net/shared/j1mdbi474n

G-min EBVT III
http://www.box.net/shared/ktyjrt3isi
G-min Piece Before
http://www.box.net/shared/7ry3dq43kk

Eb - Cmin EBVT III
http://www.box.net/shared/rblcipxxvm
Cmin Before
http://www.box.net/shared/343cglzyqv

This is great, Glen - I'll listen through it all, little by little.

From listening to the first one (Bach) there's a great example of harmonic motion roughly around 1'00'' in both recordings.

F/E-Dm7-G7-C really has a lot of movement in the EBVT III, and that has nothing to do with phrasing. In the ET version the cadenza is more or less just strolling along.

I'll get back with more input.

Kittle disgression on the violin, to confirm what said Patrick above, my brother Raphaël just answered me on the tuning on the violin, he said that he used to tune in pure 5ths for a long time, but now as long as he had to play with an instrument that have a large scale, particularely in the basses , as piano or cello, he try to temper his 5ths as much as possible.

here is the 3d movt of the Poulenc sonata "presto tragico" :

http://www.box.net/shared/xj4tbcxgr6

With Artur Pizaro ,piano.

the piano is nicely open, still I feel it could be a little more.

"...to temper as much as possible"

The same statement used by all tuners since around 400 years dealing with temperaments. Of course he hast to temper to the best fit of the instrument he will play along with. The piano could be tuned with more or less stretch (for example StopperStimmung or Chas or something other between pure octave stretch and pure fifth (Cordier) stretch) so he has to do with the violin, to keep unisons of open strings relative to the accompanying instrument as much as compatible. I don´t see any relevance of a preference of one over another stretch implied in your brother´s statement though.

Regards,

Bernhard Stopper

Yes Bernhard, I agree, but why does he temper when playing with cello's ? I will ask him where the advantage is.

Here is the first movt : http://www.box.net/shared/mc2epzm1vp "allegro con fueco"

And the lent et tres calme : http://www.box.net/shared/jcavxxpsxe

Maybe your personal preference is really different in this example from mine. Maybe your personal opinion is just biased because you know that it is not the stretch you want to expect.

Remember your experience with experienced and well known pianists who generally concern about too low higher registers. Serge Cordier for example, who stretched up to pure fifths, (which is much more stretched than the difference between Chas and StopperStimmung) has listed a reference of more than 30 prime league pianists in his book.
My guess is that stretch preference has nothing to do with the age, but are personal preferences. I have experience with plenty of pianists of every age saying that the stretch type StopperStimmung provides, does produce "octave identity" when played melodically. My former piano teacher Else Herold (pupil of Emil von Sauer, pupil of Franz Liszt) told me when i tuned her piano the first time in StopperStimmung, that this tuning reminds her to the best tunings she encountered on stage in her career (i was 27 years young at this time and i liked the stretch very much despite my youth ;-) while she was over 80 (ok her comment does obviously not convince you in this context... ).



I´d rather backup such presumptions with validated data before making them appear as generally valid.
For me stretch expectations is rather a matter of taste just as with the sound differences produced by different tuning methods (for example the purity occuring in StopperStimmunng vs the livelieness occuring with EBVT III.



Good idea, but use an uncompressed wav file for this test (Kamin´s record is uncompressed wav while the example on my homepage you linked here is wmv compressed (which is equal to mp3 quality). Compression does introduce artifacts and reduces overtone colour and dynamics. I will soon upload an uncompressed wav version on my homepage too.

Regards,

Bernhard Stopper

Bernhard, how would you translate the word "Traümerei" in English?

Isaac, maybe you have just overseen one of my former posts where is answered this. In a string quartet for example, the standard string tuning with pure fifths on the cello and the violin (both are tuned with pure duodecimes (twelfths) on the respective open strings) the cello C and the violin E will result with a sharp pythagorean major third. Tempering both instruments accordingly while maintaining the pure duodecimes between the two instruments does smoothen the pythagorean third to a less sharper StopperStimmung tempered third. Same is true for viola and violin. Lowest C of the viola is a pythagorean major third relative to the violin E, which will be smoothened by tempering the fifths accordingly on both instruments. Keeping the duodecimes between cello and violin pure (there are three then) while tempering the cello fifths accordingly. Tempering the octaves between cello and viola, so that the tempered octaves between the cello and viola and tempered fifths on the viola also have the summed span of pure duodecimes, makes all open strings fit perfectly a StopperStimmung.

Regards,

Bernhard Stopper

Bill,

"dreamery" by german thinking, but that is probably poor foreigner english. I don´t know if there is a better equivalent. Babelfish web translator gives "fantasy" but i think that this does not express very well what it means in german.

I tend to agree with Bernhard there out of the 5-6 last notes of the old tuners, due to other reasons, and generally speaking with age tuners tend to like less stretched tunings, to me.


Stretch , to me is the relation between the high treble and the mediums, the basses and the medium.

What changes with StopperSTimmung or Chas, or Cordier, is that there is in some way "less stretch" as the added aperture at the mediums adborb most due stretch from the treble and basses.

Hence the more "natural" behaviour.

But at the same time it change all the harmonic content in chords.

That is there prefernces may be used, to me.

We are so much used to listen to tempered 5ths that a friend told me that when he took his first tuning lessons, he was unable to tune pure 5ths, to him the pure interval was tempered, he tuned them that way naturally.

Thank you, Bernhard, "dreamery" sounds good to me!

Absolutely, an uncompressed sound file was the next thing I was going to ask for (if you liked the idea of an A/B test)!

I think it would be most interesting to get that test done, because - just as you say - my presumption is not a validated statement in any way, it's just a hunch I have. Which can be wrong, of course Neither would a small group of students validate it as any kind of universal truth, but it would give interesting feedback.

That makes sense, Bernhard. And the width of the fifths in the string quartet could be less than StopperStimmung too, as long as the tempering is consistent between the vlns/vla/vlc. The match on open strings would be just as perfect, if you like - and want to go for - a slightly narrower tuning. Right?

Yes, the definition ('stretch') really isn't easily applied to symmetrical tunings like StopperStimmung or CHAS. It's more like 'the width' or 'the span' of the tuning... or something like that.

I hear you


My apologies - I didn't remember that Spotify is, as we speak, taking it's first steps onto the US market.

It's a web site (web service) where you can listen to streaming music. Due to a deal with the record companies, most (but not all) records can be found there.

It's a neat service, and it really has changed the way Europeans listen to music. It's made a teacher's life easier, too. All my students have it, and I can give them listening recommendations/assignments aso, knowing that the music is there for them (legally, too )

Here is an unusually beautiful composition by the, I should say, somewhat forgotten composer Moritz Moszkowski, Etude, Opus 24, No.1, played by Felix Fox on the Ampico.

It has wonderful colors and harmonies that are brought out in EBVT III. http://www.box.net/shared/xoamu98toh

Last Thursday, Bill Bremmer tuned my little Lester (to EBVT III, of course). While he was working, he said something like, "You know, nobody has recorded the Pipe Organ Effect, yet." I said, "I'd be happy to do it!" He said, "I was thinking, wouldn't it be neat to make a sample that starts after the broken chord, add your reverb, and slow it down to make it sound huge, and say, 'Can you believe this came from a Lester?'" We both laughed.

So, without futher adieu, here is the Pipe Organ Effect on my humble 1940 Lester spinet. Two samples: first, plain and simple so you can hear the C chord played bottom to top, second, edited to start after the chord and enhanced with reverb and volume. (I couldn't get the wav to cooperate with the "slow it down" request.) Please note that my piano bench is creaky and gets in the way a little bit (it's 1940, too!)

EBVT III Pipe Organ Effect on Lester Spinet

EBVT III Pipe Organ Effect on Lester Spinet dressed up for church

Also, since Bill made my piano sound so nice, I made a couple of recordings to contribute to the discussion. In the past, I have added special EQ and reverb to my recordings to try to get rid of hiss and make my piano sound more "grand." I'm happy to say, I've recently learned a little more about controlling hiss. Also, since the piano sounds so good, I skipped the reverb. This is pure Lester spinet, in my ordinary carpeted 12' X 15' living room. In other words, this is my piano in EBVT III! I hope you enjoy it.

JS Bach, Sarabande, Menuet 1, Menuet 2, from Suite 1 in D min, Little Notebook

Scriabin, Prelude in E, Op.11 No.9

Andy Strong

I hope you can broaden your horizons sometime.

Thanks for the posting Andy.

Very nice sound, and from a spinet no less. Enjoyed your playing as well.

That pipe organ effect is quite something. I remember Bill telling me it was easier to achieve that effect on a piano that had more inharmonicity than on my M&H BB, which has low inharmonicity.

Both the Bach and Scriabin sound great. The EBVT sounds really good on that piano.

Thanks for the "pipe organ effect" Andy! The enhanced one is unbelievable! You are the first to post it! I've suggested it to many but none have come through with it yet. If a lowly Lester spinet can produce that kind of sound, just imagine what a Steinway D or Fazioli could do!

When I finished my tuning at the concert hall yesterday, I said to the sound engineer, "Hey, listen to this! When I finish playing all the keys, tell me this does not sound like a pipe organ. I did it and he said, "Wow! That is amazing! It really does sound like a pipe organ!"

I also enjoyed very much the two recordings you made of music. I found the Bach to be especially appropriate for the kind of piano you have but the Scriabin was also a pleasant surprise.

Yes, GP, I recall on your piano and the M&H BB that I tuned at the PTG convention, I was a bit disappointed. It was there but not what I had heard on other pianos. Somehow, a Baldwin Acrosonic does a great job. The Steinway D is quite impressive but never had I been in a cathedral like I was for a moment when I played it on a Fazioli!

That's very interesting Bill. Is there a reason why the M&H BB does not have the full effect?

I just posted this in another thread, but thought it would be good to revisit here. It does not sound like an organ per se, but there is so much resonance when the dampers are up, and the harmonies are so beautiful, the effect in EBVT III is quite something.

"Going back through my recent recordings of EBVT III with Ari's hammers and strings, I find that this piece really demonstrates the synergy of the hammers, strings, and the Wapin, all beautifully enhanced by the EBVT III tuning. One can lose one's self in the magical sounds of this piece from Debussy. You can almost picture the reflections in the water.

The ultimate is to download it, then play it back with a pair of headphones."

"Reflets dans L'eau" by Debussy, played with the Ampico by Leo Orenstein http://www.box.net/shared/4i7phr8ezs

Hello GP, the pipe organ effect is just an interesting albeit amazing side effect, not the purpose behind tuning in the EBVT. It just doesn't come through as well on a low inharmonicity piano because I can't stretch the upper octaves as much as I can on other pianos. Everything you have played on your piano has always sounded wonderful, however, so don't worry about that.

If you are able to, just press the damper pedal and strike a long, C Major arpeggio: first the lowest C octave, then 5th (G) then C-E-G all the rest of the way to the top and let it ring. Record that and if it sounds anything like a pipe organ to you, then post it.

The "Réflets dans l'eau" has always been one of my favorites!

BDB,
Would you please elaborate? I don't know what you mean, and I really want to know, because when people give me advice, I want to consider it carefully.

Thanks!

Dear Grandpianoman, Jake, and Bill,

Thank you! I'm glad you enjoyed them!

Here's one more I did today that I just have to share. It is a picture postcard from northern Illinois. Watercolor, I think. In front of my house is a bush. Birds sing. In front of the bush is a street. Cars go by. Across the street is a playground. Children play. This is Sunday morning, eleven o'clock, early springtime, windows open. Daffodils and crabapple blossoms. The key is G major.

Vladimir Rebikoff-Mouvement Plastique

And now for a report: I got to hear one of Bill's pianos in EBVT III on Friday night. It was the one mentioned in the above quote, a Steinway D. The setting was a moderate-sized performance hall. The piano was accompanied by a stand-up acoustic bass (which had a pickup) and a drum set.

The pianist was Michael Kaeshammer, who plays a boogie style. He's a very animated performer who interacts with the piano in a variety of ways. He's the kind of musician that challenges the piano to BE musical--playing the whole range of keys, thundering in the bass and tickling the soprano, drumming on the cabinet to elicit various pitches from the wood, muting the strings with his hand or forearm while playing chords, harping the strings at musically appropriate times. He's a vibrant performer with a keen sense of humor and a drive to make the piano speak.

Bill left at intermission and didn't get to enjoy this accolade, so I'm relating it here as a testament to the EBVT III temperament in this setting--

After a whole bunch of rowdy pieces in which it was obvious that the performers and the audience were enjoying things very much, Mr. Kaeshammer slowed it down in a solo section. He played a quiet, harmonious piece that started with a pop pattern in the left hand ala Bruce Hornsby and morphed into an improvisation ala George Winston (but better than any George Winston I've heard!). I could tell he was really into the sound of the piano, because every so often he would play a line and smile with delight. (I believe I know exactly what he was experiencing!) At the end of the piece, as he took his bow, he acknowleged the piano, TWICE, during the applause, patting it, pointing INTO it, and when the applause died down, said, "That's a really nice piano!" He meant, of course, "That piano sounds beautiful! Thank you Mr. Piano Tuner Whoever You Are!"

Another highlight was the encore, in which they did a version of a sentimental pop song. I don't know the name of it, but it has a memorable melody. It was a quiet piece, and the drummer used yarn mallets. The bass player used the electric bass. The sound was warm and rich. It was very nicely done and the piano and the bass were perfectly in tune. At times, the piano and bass played a duet with the bass playing a chorded melody against the piano's thematic rhythms. This, with the sound of the quiet wash of the cymbals and gentle, toneful thub of the toms on the drums was quite stunning.

For those of you who are not familiar with Michael Kaeshammer, here's a sample. However, the piano in this clip doesn't come close to the tuning Bill gave the Steinway in the Janesville performance hall. The EBVT III sounded "up," "healthy," and alive. The piano in this clip sounds flat and sickly by comparison.

Michael Kaeshammer Hamps Boogie-Woogie / Sweet Georgia Brown

--Andy Strong

Thanks so much Andy! I loved your last piece. Wow! I did not know that the artist had acknowledged my work (which is rare for an artist to do but I have seen them do it far more often for unequal temperaments than they ever do for ET). So, to all those who condemned the EBVT III and said or implied that a performing artist would find it unacceptable, I have never found that to be true. Instead, they offer accolades.

I think you should try the same thing on a variety of pianos, rather than just a worn-out spinet.