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#1553595 - 11/08/10 11:46 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]
TADutchman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 760
Loc: Apeldoorn, The Netherlands
All in all, your reply is still too vague for me ('consider adding') and not really open minded. It would be an interesting comparison though, as I know of several people who abandoned SN after playing a CA93/CA63 in dual voice mode (while in single voice mode, some of them found the expressivity of SN to be a TAD* better). We're talking about bridging the gap, you see? (and going much further in versatility). Of course, the opposite also happens, going back to both personal sound signature preferences and differences in marketing approach.

No hard feelings: anytime, just let me know when you are ready for a clear invitation and dual voice mode comparison. smile

Link to the CA93/CA63 custom settings thread:
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...tml#Post1448603

*) What's in a name. wink


Edited by TADutchman (11/08/10 02:34 PM)
Edit Reason: link added
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#1553628 - 11/08/10 12:43 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: TADutchman]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4343
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: TADutchman
All in all, your reply is still too vague for me ('considering') and not really open minded.

The MP3 files are there in the DPBSD archive for anyone to make any kind of mash-up they like. Anyone can also go to the Adobe web site and download a fully working Audition trial to do the normalization, obtain the spectral phase and pan views, and export to MP3.

No hard feelings here either, but I get the feeling that this is one effort I'd prefer to be out of the loop on.
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The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1553629 - 11/08/10 12:45 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]
TADutchman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 760
Loc: Apeldoorn, The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: dewster
No hard feelings here either, but I get the feeling that this is one effort I'd prefer to be out of the loop on.

Thanks for the confirmation. This is very clear.
_________________________
K A W A I ..... R O L A N D ......... E - M U
C A - 9 3 ......... A X - 7 ...... X B O A R D - 4 9

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#1553640 - 11/08/10 01:09 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Well, if the layered sounds are as good as TADutchman says they are, then the next generation of Kawai's (in a few years after the MP10 I guess since the MP10 doesn't support this sound layering) will have new standard piano voices from the TADutchman pre-set thread as one of its standard default pianos and then anyone will be able to record a standard file for the test that meets the criteria for a level playing field and comparability.

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#1553715 - 11/08/10 03:24 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Okay, here we are:

As an answer to the last post of dewster I added a comparison of the CA63 single layer Concert Grand patch (without reverb) and TADutchmans BLENDED CONCERT GRANDEUR which is a layered sound I really like (also without any reverb).

I recorded C3 note, always the first 6 seconds.

First one is Concert Grand without pedal, second one is with pedal down.

Third one is BLENDED CONCERT GRANDEUR with pedal up, fourth is with pedal down.



As you can see, a layered sound can make a big difference both in audible and visible aspects.
Also you can see that pedal down sound of CA63 makes a big difference, no audible loop anymore detectable.

All in all I think that in real playing situations (even more when some reverb is added) there is virtually no detectable looping in the CA63/CA93 sound. Even more, with a layered sound the looping is just not there anymore.

I did this not only for C3 note, but for all octaves, and it's similar for all octaves.

Here is the MP3 to check for yourself:

http://www.mediafire.com/?6knscl7oi77l1l9

Have fun playing the UPHI sound!
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1553716 - 11/08/10 03:28 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
I understand this layering is NOT possible on the MP10 ?! (It's on my short-list, so would be nice to know...)

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#1553719 - 11/08/10 03:33 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: JFP]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: JFP
I understand this layering is NOT possible on the MP10 ?! (It's on my short-list, so would be nice to know...)


Well, correct me if I am wrong anyone, but, my understanding from reading the communication between KawaiJAMES and TADutchman is that on the MP10 you can only layer sounds from one sound bank to another, e.g. strings and piano, not from the same sound bank, i.e. one acoustic piano on another...

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#1553722 - 11/08/10 03:39 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: mucci]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: mucci
Okay, here we are:

As an answer to the last post of dewster I added a comparison of the CA63 single layer Concert Grand patch (without reverb) and TADutchmans BLENDED CONCERT GRANDEUR which is a layered sound I really like (also without any reverb).

I recorded C3 note, always the first 6 seconds.

First one is Concert Grand without pedal, second one is with pedal down.

Third one is BLENDED CONCERT GRANDEUR with pedal up, fourth is with pedal down.



As you can see, a layered sound can make a big difference both in audible and visible aspects.
Also you can see that pedal down sound of CA63 makes a big difference, no audible loop anymore detectable.

All in all I think that in real playing situations (even more when some reverb is added) there is virtually no detectable looping in the CA63/CA93 sound. Even more, with a layered sound the looping is just not there anymore.

I did this not only for C3 note, but for all octaves, and it's similar for all octaves.

Here is the MP3 to check for yourself:

http://www.mediafire.com/?6knscl7oi77l1l9

Have fun playing the UPHI sound!


This looks promising.

However: Is there a reason you kept the graphs so short?
The more artificially abbreviated the graphs are the less apparent the looping will be....

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#1553731 - 11/08/10 03:54 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Upon special request here's the full 15 sec length spectral view of the BLENDED CONCERT GRANDEUR with pedal up and no reverb. No visible sign of looping:

_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1553735 - 11/08/10 04:07 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: mucci]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4343
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: mucci
I recorded C3 note, always the first 6 seconds.

First one is Concert Grand without pedal, second one is with pedal down.

Third one is BLENDED CONCERT GRANDEUR with pedal up, fourth is with pedal down.

I listened to it. Comparing the first and the third (the pedal up unlayered vs. pedal up layered samples) as I said before the looping of the first sounds over-processed and nondescript. The looping of the third unfortunately brings out the loop itself - which is too short - and so sounds more like old school looping to me. I don't like either, but if I had to decide I'd probably take the unlayered over the layered.

The SN sound to me has a much more realistic decay.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1553745 - 11/08/10 04:24 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
I guess I should have thought to listen to it!

The sound of the layered, pedaled sound reminds me somewhat of flying a multi-engine airplane where the props are not sync-ed or of the beats one hears from a piano that is out of tune.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propeller_synchronization

Presumably it would be non-trivial to develop even simple modeling algorithms to simulate piano decay that would be superior to simply creating phasey beats symptomatic of having two poorly coordinated piano recordings playing simultaneously and interfering with each other.

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#1553748 - 11/08/10 04:26 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: mucci]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4343
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: mucci
No visible sign of looping

But it's clearly audible. So the spectral pan view is rather moot.

I think your approach to this kind of testing is a bit backward. You should be using the graphs to understand and quantify the things you can already hear. Sometimes the graphs can help you know whether something on the edge of your hearing is real or not (e.g. sympathetic resonance). But saying people won't hear something because it isn't visible in a particular view is incorrect. For instance, I often have a hard time seeing looping on C1 notes, but I can almost always hear it if it is there.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1553866 - 11/08/10 07:03 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: TADutchman]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4343
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: TADutchman
... just let me know when you are ready for a clear invitation and dual voice mode comparison.

I'm envisioning me on my knees rolling out a red carpet, TAD emerging from a limo sporting sunglasses and a cravat, the paparazzi going bananas. Where do I send the first-class all-expenses-paid ticket?
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1554070 - 11/09/10 01:29 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]
TADutchman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 760
Loc: Apeldoorn, The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: dewster
I'm envisioning me on my knees rolling out a red carpet

You mean not being part of the Roland worship connection anymore? laugh ha
http://www.rolandus.com/community/worship_connection/
_________________________
K A W A I ..... R O L A N D ......... E - M U
C A - 9 3 ......... A X - 7 ...... X B O A R D - 4 9

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#1554075 - 11/09/10 01:44 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: theJourney]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Originally Posted By: JFP
I understand this layering is NOT possible on the MP10 ?! (It's on my short-list, so would be nice to know...)


Well, correct me if I am wrong anyone, but, my understanding from reading the communication between KawaiJAMES and TADutchman is that on the MP10 you can only layer sounds from one sound bank to another, e.g. strings and piano, not from the same sound bank, i.e. one acoustic piano on another...


bump

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#1554076 - 11/09/10 01:45 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Discovering this webpage I'm almost tempted to switch over to Roland... But they just released a CD called "the Journey"... wink so I should be warned
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1554078 - 11/09/10 01:51 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: TADutchman]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: TADutchman
Originally Posted By: dewster
I'm envisioning me on my knees rolling out a red carpet

You mean not being part of the Roland worship connection anymore? laugh ha
http://www.rolandus.com/community/worship_connection/


Hmmm. I see a point being made, but not the one intended probably.

Certainly you would say that this page is an example of better and more professional end-user, application-based marketing to sell pianos to "chruches"?
http://www.kawaius.com/main_links/digital/sound_demos/chruch_demo2010.html

If a manufacturer cannot understand the needs of their markets and empathize with their wants and concerns, they will not succeed not matter how cheap they sell their products vis-a-vis the competition. People don't buy dps, they buy what they can do with their dps.

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#1554101 - 11/09/10 02:33 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Is someone again in the KAWAI bashing mode? I thought this is about technical analysis of sounds, and most people posting here are constructively participating with adding some analysis content and not just
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1554108 - 11/09/10 02:52 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Actually, as most of us here, I am discussing the market for digital pianos, the digital pianos themselves, their capabilities and limitations and sounds, their manufacturers, their supply chain partners, etc. That's what this site is for.

You might want to stop violating the terms of service of this site and do the same. It is so much more satisfactory to have a discussion of the topic rather than only stir the pot by making innuendos and commenting on and attacking other posters...

For example, rather than coming to this thread to bait and seek conflict it would have been more useful for another user to either submit their proposed sounds or not. Rather than post put-down cartoons it would be more interesting to hear your reaction to my very serious and constructive feedback on the sounds you posted. Rather than the users who have the answers to specific, valid questions (e.g. the CAx3 versus MP10 layering capabilities) ignoring these questions posed to them while they post a flurry of private messages to each other followed by more attacks, it would be useful to actually have a discussion of facts.

Are you up to it?

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#1554113 - 11/09/10 02:59 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9147
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
As theJourney correctly states (and as I have stated in the MP10/MP6 thread), the MP10 does not allow two sounds from the same category (e.g. two piano sounds) to be layered together.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1554122 - 11/09/10 03:46 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: theJourney]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
The day when you stop repeating yourself endlessly I will stop responding.
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1554129 - 11/09/10 04:28 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Attached you find the whole C1 to C7 set of (almost) full length CA63 Concert Grandeur patch. I for myself can hardly detect any loops, but in real live playing this is virtually neglectible. It's all about the sound signature.
Everyone can build its own opinion from this sample:

http://www.mediafire.com/?yz070u3xobkovp8
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1554130 - 11/09/10 04:31 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: mucci]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: mucci
The day when you stop repeating yourself endlessly I will stop responding.

I would like to take you at your word, but I am not sure which side of your mouth I should listen to... frown

Originally Posted By: mucci
I do no longer directly answer to theJourney... since I don't want to get personally offended by him.

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#1554132 - 11/09/10 04:43 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: mucci]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: mucci
Attached you find the whole C1 to C7 set of (almost) full length CA63 Concert Grandeur patch. I for myself can hardly detect any loops, but in real live playing this is virtually neglectible. It's all about the sound signature.
Everyone can build its own opinion from this sample:

http://www.mediafire.com/?yz070u3xobkovp8


Thanks for uploading this.

I find the strange lack of a percussive attack of the start of notes that was already quite noticeable on the standard CA63 sounds to be even more prominent on the layered sound. Can this be tweaked so that it sounds more piano-like and less kind-of-like-a-piano-like?

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#1554140 - 11/09/10 05:40 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: theJourney]
TADutchman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 760
Loc: Apeldoorn, The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: theJourney
Can this be tweaked...

Come on, theJourney. It is already well known that you prefer the sound signature and beautiful resonances of the CA93/CA63 Steinway preset, as many other people do. So, why don't you just take that one or one of the many other dual voice presets (in case it is relevant, owning a CA93/CA63). There's plenty of choice in the CA93/CA63 custom settings thread for everybody. smile
_________________________
K A W A I ..... R O L A N D ......... E - M U
C A - 9 3 ......... A X - 7 ...... X B O A R D - 4 9

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#1554203 - 11/09/10 09:05 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
Thanks Mucci, you've tilted my choice towards Roland by providing this excellent example. The sound as separate notes is completely static to me and the looping way too audible. I wonder if the MP10 preforms any better in a comparable test (single notes like you did). To compensate for this artificial sound it can not be layered as with the CA63, so it has to be really better than this in a single patch, or else...;-)

By the way, what's this flutter echo on the highest tone ? Sounds like a reflexion of some kind..., shouldn't be there I suppose...

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#1554207 - 11/09/10 09:14 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
You're welcome! wink

Before finally deciding I would test drive all of your models in question. Nothing goes beyond playing for yourself and deciding on your personal preference rather than only static tests.
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1554215 - 11/09/10 09:27 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
I know, but from the examples here I came to expect that I would only like the piano sounds in layering mode , as proposed by TADutchman. Since the MP10 cannot do that , it will depend on how much better the (single layer) UHPI implementation on the MP10 than on the CA63. Let's call it UHPI+ It will put the MP6 out of my options list altogether.

I know you would have to wait and see (hear) for yourself, but it may still take ages before the MP10 hits any store nearby, so I doubt if I want to wait that long before ordering. That's the whole reason I linger on these sites so much. Not because I've got nothing else to do, but simply because I try to make a decent decision based on all the information I can possibly extract from these threads, websites , Youtubes demo's etc

Remember I tried the Rm3 and I know I like it, so the rest depends mostly on the AP sound for me. And I'm still not convinced I will be happy with it. Certainly not as long as there is no decent material replacing these crippled MP3's of the Kawai website...

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#1554223 - 11/09/10 09:36 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Remember, JFP, playing real music and those isolated single notes (without reverb etc.) is something completely different! Don't rely too much on this. Remember, this is a plain numbers and analysis thread.

Furthermore: Don't rely too much on opinions that individual people here in this forum express. We are all somehow biased for whatever reason (even me! wink ), so you should be cautious.

Ans last but not least: You need to play your favourite DP before buying. That's, I would say, even 90% of the opinion making, max. 10% is reading in forums like this.
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1554230 - 11/09/10 09:45 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: mucci]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4343
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: mucci
Attached you find the whole C1 to C7 set of (almost) full length CA63 Concert Grandeur patch.

Yes, thank you mucci for making this available. I find C2 and C7 the best of the bunch to my ears. The others have too much fake phasey sound.

And I hope no one takes this personally, but if this is a good example of the Kawai layering project, color me rather unimpressed.

Originally Posted By: mucci
I for myself can hardly detect any loops, but in real live playing this is virtually neglectible.

You could say that about a lot of DPs.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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