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#1419702 - 04/18/10 10:23 PM How do I play this note? Minuet 114
fe2008 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/12/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Brazil
In the image below, do I play the left hand D with the B or with the A note at the right hand?



Edited by fe2008 (04/18/10 10:31 PM)
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#1419717 - 04/18/10 10:56 PM Re: How do I play this note? Minuet 114 [Re: fe2008]
DragonPianoPlayer Offline
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Registered: 12/12/06
Posts: 2368
Loc: Denver, CO
Hi fe2008,

The edition I have of this minuet has the right hand notes in that measure spelled out as quarter note on B then a half note on A.

In general this type of notation in Bach indicates a long apppoggiatura. It's played on the beat, and can take 1/3, 1/2 or 2/3 of the time from the note that follows it. It is written as an ornament to let someone know that they should not add additional ornamentation to the notes.

Here's a table with Bach's ornamentations as they would be played.



This is the explication from the Notebook for William Friedemann.

Here's another example of how a long appoggiatura would be played:



Both of these images come from the music theory portion of www.dolmetsch.com

Rich
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#1420049 - 04/19/10 02:13 PM Re: How do I play this note? Minuet 114 [Re: DragonPianoPlayer]
fe2008 Offline
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Registered: 02/12/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Brazil
So I play the left hand D with the B at the melody?
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#1420056 - 04/19/10 02:25 PM Re: How do I play this note? Minuet 114 [Re: fe2008]
DragonPianoPlayer Offline
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Registered: 12/12/06
Posts: 2368
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Yes.
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#1420103 - 04/19/10 04:10 PM Re: How do I play this note? Minuet 114 [Re: fe2008]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

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Originally Posted By: fe2008
So I play the left hand D with the B at the melody?

Agreed with DPP, so also yes.

It might be good for you to think about it the other way around, that the B plays with the left hand D, rather than the left hand D playing with the melody. The LH carries the beat here and that is the part which is steady. If you think of the melody fitting into this underlying beat, rather than the beat fitting the melody, it might make a difference.

Just in case.

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#1420105 - 04/19/10 04:15 PM Re: How do I play this note? Minuet 114 [Re: keystring]
Legal Beagle Offline
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Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 776
Quote:
It might be good for you to think about it the other way around, that the B plays with the left hand D, rather than the left hand D playing with the melody


Bravo Keystring, that's exactly what I was thinking. The question is not where the left hand D comes... it comes on the beat. Period. The question is whether the first note in the ornament (B) is properly played on the beat or before the beat. And, although it has been answered by those who know more than me, I think on.
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#1420591 - 04/20/10 12:38 PM Re: How do I play this note? Minuet 114 [Re: Legal Beagle]
fe2008 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/12/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Brazil
Thank you.
So if I play it as a quarter note on B and a half note on A the left hand lower D note is to be played WITH the right hand A?



Edited by fe2008 (04/20/10 12:41 PM)
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#1420643 - 04/20/10 02:35 PM Re: How do I play this note? Minuet 114 [Re: fe2008]
Legal Beagle Offline
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Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 776
In my opinion, yes.

Also... I think this is nothing more than a language issue, but just to reiterate: your question has the same problem as the first question. The D in the LH is played on count 2, period. The question is not where to play that D (i.e., "with" the A in RH or not); the question is where to play the A in the RH... and in my opinion, it's with the D in LH on count two (but it's possible that some expert in Bach ornamentation might disagree with me).
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#1420727 - 04/20/10 05:28 PM Re: How do I play this note? Minuet 114 [Re: fe2008]
keystring Online   content
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I'm no expert on Bach, so going by the reference posted here I wrote out two possibilities and wonder whether either is correct. I've marked the beats in yellow to show 3 beats, and wrote 1 + 2 + 3 + for the counts.

In (A) the right hand B is held for a full note and comes in at beat 1 with the left hand high D. So the RH A comes in at the same time as the LH lower D. This is probably easier to play.

In option (B), the RH B and LH D play on beat 1 like before, but at the " + " you play the right hand A and hold it (there is a tie). You keep holding the A while playing the rest of the left hand notes starting at count 2.

Which of these is more correct?


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#1420731 - 04/20/10 05:37 PM Re: How do I play this note? Minuet 114 [Re: keystring]
fe2008 Offline
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Registered: 02/12/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Brazil
Keystring, actually I was playing the way you described in your "B" option. But I think the "A" option sounds more correct...
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#1420774 - 04/20/10 07:36 PM Re: How do I play this note? Minuet 114 [Re: fe2008]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

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Now your last diagram also makes sense to me. I'm curious what the experts will say.

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#1420808 - 04/20/10 08:44 PM Re: How do I play this note? Minuet 114 [Re: keystring]
Studio Joe Offline
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Registered: 03/28/07
Posts: 1803
Loc: Decatur, Texas
I would play it like this.

Mp3
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#1420814 - 04/20/10 08:50 PM Re: How do I play this note? Minuet 114 [Re: Studio Joe]
fe2008 Offline
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Registered: 02/12/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Brazil
You're playing it with a short appoggiatura (a.k.a Acciaccatura)? I've never heard that before in minuet 114... confused
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#1420830 - 04/20/10 09:12 PM Re: How do I play this note? Minuet 114 [Re: fe2008]
Studio Joe Offline
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Registered: 03/28/07
Posts: 1803
Loc: Decatur, Texas
Well a doted half gets 3 beats, the B is a grace note and has to steal time from the previous measure beat 3 or from beat one of its measure. if you give the dotted half 3 beats, it has to start on beat one.
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#1420836 - 04/20/10 09:21 PM Re: How do I play this note? Minuet 114 [Re: Studio Joe]
fe2008 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/12/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Brazil
Wikipedia:

Appoggiatura comes from the Italian verb appoggiare, "to lean upon". The long appoggiatura is important melodically and often suspends the principal note by taking away the time-value of the appoggiatura prefixed to it (generally half the time value of the note, though in triple time, for example, it might receive two thirds of the time).
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#1420861 - 04/20/10 10:06 PM Re: How do I play this note? Minuet 114 [Re: fe2008]
packa Offline
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Registered: 02/05/05
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Loc: Dallas, TX
Keystring's A option is the more common interpretation here for Bach. The appoggiatura would never be played before beat one. The appoggiatura here takes it's time from the dotted half, so it is played on the beat and the dotted half is shortened. That's just the Baroque style. In later styles, things might be different.
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#1420895 - 04/20/10 11:04 PM Re: How do I play this note? Minuet 114 [Re: packa]
fe2008 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/12/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Brazil
Another question for you:



In the marked note above, should it be held down for the entire bar as a separated third voice?
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#1420940 - 04/21/10 12:10 AM Re: How do I play this note? Minuet 114 [Re: fe2008]
packa Offline
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Registered: 02/05/05
Posts: 1397
Loc: Dallas, TX
Originally Posted By: fe2008
Another question for you:



In the marked note above, should it be held down for the entire bar as a separated third voice?

That's what I would do. My teacher is something of a stickler for this sort of thing in Baroque music, especially when it's notated as clearly as this example.
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#1421039 - 04/21/10 03:33 AM Re: How do I play this note? Minuet 114 [Re: fe2008]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11572
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: fe2008
Another question for you:



In the marked note above, should it be held down for the entire bar as a separated third voice?

Yes, because it is a separate voice. the quarter note rests above it indicate that there is a higher voice which is silent for two beats and comes in on the third beat.

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