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#1412290 - 04/06/10 02:26 PM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: Mike Carr]
wouter79 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3243
Jeff,

I thought it good to have the dealer have a look at it first and listen to his recommendation. If he recommends replacement then I do not need to hire a RPT. The more official route of sending photos to him with an RPT report and communicating with the manufacturer seems to me a second step.

I already made an appointment with the dealer, he wants to see in person.

My warranty says 5 years warranty but no further details. This is the warranty offered by the dealer. No mentioning of any backed, I suppose the next in line is the manufacturer. Model is model P IV.
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#1412295 - 04/06/10 02:32 PM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: wouter79]
wouter79 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3243
Here is a pic of bridge pins of the lowest string.
Notice the small bump, did they already do some repair here?

_________________________

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#1412329 - 04/06/10 03:36 PM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: wouter79]
crispin Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/17/08
Posts: 80
Loc: france
I had a problem with a new piano... a Bechstein... and Bechstein told me that it was a problem between myself and the piano dealer where I bought it (in France)... This dealer advertised themselves as the 'Bechstein Centre' so in my opinion the reputation of Bechstein was also involved. Eventually the importer of Bechstein into France became involved ... and sorted out the problem in a very good and excellent way. I am not sure if there is some central importer of Petrof into the US ... but maybe you should get them involved if the dealer does not respond in a proper way.
But as other say get a report made by someone independent...
good luck -

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#1412389 - 04/06/10 05:27 PM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: crispin]
wouter79 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3243
OK two more pics, the g5 and g#5. Note that this is entirely different part of the bridge than the first crack



_________________________

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#1412396 - 04/06/10 05:35 PM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: wouter79]
wouter79 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3243
And one of the B1 and Bb1.

_________________________

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#1412412 - 04/06/10 05:44 PM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: Mike Carr]
wouter79 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3243
UPDATE

I got feedback from the technician on the first photo.
Particularly his second commend seems to differ significantly from is said here.


1) I asked him if he thinks it needs further inspection,
His reply (translation by me):

"These cracks are not necessarily a problem, but I recommend you to contact the dealer and/or manufacturer and maybe request a repair under warranty"

2) I also asked if these cracks have efect on sound, tuning stability, whether the cracks will grow etc. He wrote:

"This can not be predicted. These cracks are regularly seen in new instruments. Usually they do not form any problem soundwise etc."
_________________________

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#1412584 - 04/06/10 10:05 PM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: wouter79]
Mike Carr Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/20/09
Posts: 714
Loc: BANNED
wouter79,

It's always good to nail down the warrantor's responsibilities before you buy a piano. I believe the current Petrof factory warranty is five years. I don’t know why you don’t have the factory warranty card. Maybe the dealer keeps it? Anyway, you can enter your serial number on Petrof’s warranty website to see if everything matches with what the dealer has told you . . . might be good to do this before the dealer shows up . . . just to know exactly where you stand . . . there’s also an email for Petrof’s US service rep . . . I’m assuming you’re in the States . . .

I mentioned Geneva, Petrof’s former distributor, because not long ago I ran into a character selling a P II with the old ten year GIC warranty card (five year factory-five year Geneva) claiming it was transferable . . . The piano was 4 years old and he was trying to sell it new, etc. Not a bad sounding piano, but . . .



Mike
_________________________
smoke 'em if you got 'em

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#1412609 - 04/06/10 10:52 PM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: wouter79]
Roy Rodgers Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/01/09
Posts: 344
Loc: Ranger, Texas
I'm going to put in my two cents worth here. The pic with the lowest note and the bulge by the pin looks to me like the wood is being displaced because the pin is moving.

The next few pictures with the cracks and the openings around one side of the pin looks like several much older pianos I have seen lately in my neck of the woods.

The wood is cracking and allowing the pin to move. This will not stop on its own. And with this happening in more than one place on the bridge it means the piano is due some very major work. Sad since it is so young. Resembles the 70 something year old "Heine" we just replaced at our church for this very reason. But it was old, had been in a very dry environment.

Your piano will become very difficult to maintain a tuning because when the tension is increased on the strings to bring it to pitch, the pins will move and allow the pitch to move. This will be very frustrating for you and your tech.

If you can, press hard for a replacement piano.
_________________________
Tuning and repairing pianos since 1981 in Ranger, Tx. http://www.facebook.com/pages/Roys-Piano-Service/173273022711505

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#1416464 - 04/13/10 01:46 PM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: Roy Rodgers]
wouter79 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3243
UPDATE

The dealer was here today to have a look.

Basically he denied any problems and thinks this bridge is in great shape.
He mentioned a lot of points to support this:

1. If the wood is not OK the bridge would break down within half a year and this piano is older
2. Regarding the gaps around the pins, this is because the piano tuner ticks on the pins to tighten the strings under the pins
3. What seems to be cracks are not cracks, but this is the string pushing itself into the wood because it is forced around the pins.
4. You will see the same in other pianos.
5. The bridge wood is never sanded perfectly flat to start with. I think he mentioned this considering the bumps.
6. The first four or five times the piano will de-tune quickly because of switching to a different tuner that uses different methods.
7. There is hardly any play in the pins. Only if the pins would be standing straight up (i.e. there would be a HUGE crack) then there would be an issue.
8. He got quite angry/upset (don't know which) at this whole issue. According to him the piano technicians are exaggerating this problem. Partly because they did not receive commision on this piano, partly because there are too many piano tuners with too little pianos causing low income for them, and partly because this is a chance to gain importance regarding the acquisition and judgment of a piano.
9. He asked me to point out these cracks, he did not see them apparently. After pointing one out he basically repeated above and I did not proceed pointing out the others.
10. He told me that for each technician that I bring in that confirms the problem he can bring in one that denies the problem.

He is going to ask a second opinion from one of the piano tuners that works for him.

The dealer proposed to return my money and take back the piano if I insist, as he thinks we will get into a stalemate.
_________________________

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#1416472 - 04/13/10 01:58 PM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: wouter79]
Robert 45 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/18/06
Posts: 1115
Loc: Auckland New Zealand
I would indeed immediately insist on his final proposition and rid yourself of a defective piano and an unscrupulous dealer.

All the best!

Robert.

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#1416477 - 04/13/10 02:07 PM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: Robert 45]
Steve Cohen Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10335
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
Originally Posted By: Robert 45
I would indeed immediately insist on his final proposition and rid yourself of a defective piano and an unscrupulous dealer.

All the best!

Robert.


While I disagree with the dealers comments on the problems, he has offered a full refund.

I would hardly call him unscrupulous.
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#1416588 - 04/13/10 05:17 PM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: Steve Cohen]
wouter79 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3243
I think I need to check out the bridges of a number of other grands at the same level of detail. I will try to visit a few piano dealers to see for myself.

Also maybe some of you have a good camera and can take a few photos properly focused fotos of the bridge at close distance?
_________________________

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#1416599 - 04/13/10 06:00 PM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: wouter79]
Jeff Clef Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 4393
Loc: San Jose, CA
If it were me, I'd take the refund... and without delay.

Meanwhile, don't let the the tech's written evaluation, the close-up photos, the written warranty, and your "Paid" invoice (with the serial that matches your piano) get away from you... until the refund check clears.

This seller may be upset at losing the sale, but that is not your lookout. Part of the purchase price is, after all, set aside to cover warranty expenses, and the manufacturer should make this good with the seller. I congratulate you on your restraint, not to have exposed him by name on the forum... and I wish you better luck in your piano shopping.
_________________________
Clef


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#1416614 - 04/13/10 06:17 PM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: Jeff Clef]
newgeneration Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 428
Loc: Richmond Hill, Ontario
I can't believe this whole post.
Did you buy a new piano? Yes.
Should a new piano have cracks around the bridge pins? No.
Everything else (although important) doesn't matter. Period.

If you bought a car and a section of the chassis was flawed, would you insist on a new car, or, wait until you were in an accident to find out that the frame was too weak and people were seriously injured when it could have been avoided.

I'm amazed that technician's would even offer any advise other than insisting the dealer either repair or replace to you, the customers, full satisfaction.

Wouter, at this point (considering what the dealer had the audacity to tell you) take your money back and then let everyone know which dealer it was.

Sorry, I have no patience for dealers that don't know anything about pianos and still try to sell them.
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J.D. Grandt Piano Supply Company
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Piano Bass String Manufacturing Specialist (Worldwide) www.jdgrandt.com

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#1416627 - 04/13/10 06:54 PM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: newgeneration]
manofsong Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/16/09
Posts: 143
Loc: Earth
Take the refund. Then run.

C
_________________________
I often wonder what could have been.

1917 Baldwin L, Satin Mahogany, #30220

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#1416772 - 04/14/10 12:07 AM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: manofsong]
fe2008 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/12/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Brazil
"Take the refund. Then run."
+2
_________________________
Roland FP7F

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#1416931 - 04/14/10 09:21 AM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: fe2008]
sophial Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 3403
Loc: US
Yes, take him up on this before he changes his mind and get out now.

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#1419294 - 04/18/10 03:03 AM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: sophial]
wouter79 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3243
I went to a piano showroom (not the one where I bought my piano) and checked their grands for cracks.

I checked 7 NEW grand pianos and found this

two pianos have a few cracks but in the lower bass section (mine has most in the c3-c4 range)

five pianos have a bit of gaps (space around pins not tight)


For comparison I also checked 3 older pianos, 20 to 40 years old. One of them had cracks in the high notes, and one of them had slight gaps.
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#1419521 - 04/18/10 03:49 PM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: wouter79]
wouter79 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3243
I also checked a few old ones.

A steinway from 1961, two very small cracks and a few gaps in the high register but nothing else.

A steinbach of 1976, no cracks at all, a few gaps

A yamaha from 1976, multiple cracks in high registers. No gaps at all.

A dysen from 1906. A few cracks in the range c3-c4 similar in size and location to what is in my piano.

an iback from 1900. Loads and loads of cracks, very bad cracks scattered around the bridge. Lot of the cracks have been filled up with white stuff.
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#1419527 - 04/18/10 04:01 PM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: wouter79]
Steve Cohen Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10335
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
Why haven't you taken the dealer's offer for a full refund?
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#1419529 - 04/18/10 04:05 PM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: wouter79]
wouter79 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3243
From my piano inspections it shows that about 30% of the new pianos have cracks. (although my own piano has more cracks and more serious cracks than what I saw mostly).

Gaps around the pins seem even more common, about 70% of the new pianos seem to have them.

Nevertheless almost everyone I spoke with says that such cracks are inappropriate. Apparently dealers do not check for cracks at all and are just selling those pianos.

Also, from these numbers one would expect all old pianos to have cracks and gaps but this is not the case. In fact most older pianos that I saw look in great shape. Now I wonder, is that because only the good ones remained, were pianos build better to start with, or something else?
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#1419545 - 04/18/10 04:36 PM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: wouter79]
TX-Dennis Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/05
Posts: 4126
Loc: Texas
I think you should get that refund while you still can. Wait too long, and the dealer may change his mind or worse yet, go out of business. You may have no warranty at all if the dealer closes since this is probably one of the Geneva International Petrofs. I repeat: TAKE THE MONEY AND SAY THANK YOU.
_________________________
Dennis

flickr


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#1419568 - 04/18/10 05:11 PM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: TX-Dennis]
Steve Cohen Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10335
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
Again, why haven't you taken the dealer's offer for a full refund?
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#1419569 - 04/18/10 05:13 PM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: Steve Cohen]
Konzert Patrick Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 790
Loc: The Netherlands
You are playing expensive games......
My Yamaha GC1 had no cracks neither has my Schimmel.

It is not normal, you should take the refund, the piano is supposed to last a lifetime... this hardly will happen like this!

You money, your gamble, just be careful.
_________________________
Schimmel Konzert 189 Tradition

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#1419610 - 04/18/10 07:05 PM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: Konzert Patrick]
Jeff Clef Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 4393
Loc: San Jose, CA
"From my piano inspections it shows that about 30% of the new pianos have cracks. (although my own piano has more cracks and more serious cracks than what I saw mostly). Gaps around the pins seem even more common, about 70% of the new pianos seem to have them. Nevertheless almost everyone I spoke with says that such cracks are inappropriate."

As many as that? Hmmm. It raised enough of a question in my mind that I went downstairs and looked at my RX-5's bridge; it's about two-and-a-half years old. Gaps = zero, "White stuff" = zero. Then--- I saw what looked like a hairline crack down toward the bass end of the bridge. Taking a closer look, it turned out to actually BE a hair. I could even name the dog it came from. So, Cracks = zero; "Bad animal!" Oh well, I shed, too, so who am I to accuse the dog.

So, Wouter--- you're going to keep it, cracks and all, then? I'd ask you why, but I can't bear to read any more. However, next time I go to a piano store maybe I'll take a magnifying glass, and...


Edited by Jeff Clef (04/18/10 07:07 PM)
_________________________
Clef


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#1419633 - 04/18/10 08:19 PM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: wouter79]
howardc64 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/18/09
Posts: 21
Loc: Sammamish WA
The black stuff around the pins is exactly what I saw in a 12 year old Weinbach this weekend (it was around a few bass string pins)). It looks like some black stuff is feathering from the pins.

Since Weinbach is made by Petrof, is this something characteristic of Petrof manufacturing? Is there some kind of paint/dye that causes this feathering?
_________________________
Vogel V177R

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#1419774 - 04/19/10 01:21 AM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: wouter79]
wouter79 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3243
"Why haven't you taken the dealer's offer for a full refund?"

That option is still open.

The reason that I'm not eager to return it is that I really like the sound and that it took me so long to find one that I like. Returning it would mean that I have to re-start searching and I would be without piano again, maybe for a long time.
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#1419784 - 04/19/10 02:03 AM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: wouter79]
Konzert Patrick Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 790
Loc: The Netherlands
The piano you have now will give you trouble in the future.
With the money of the refund you can look around, try the same piano at a few stores, they do not vary that much! You now know what you like and dislike so the search does not have to take such a long time.....
_________________________
Schimmel Konzert 189 Tradition

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#1419800 - 04/19/10 03:13 AM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: Konzert Patrick]
wouter79 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3243
I think I forgot to mention: the dealer wanted a second opinion and that will happen friday. I wait at least till then.
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#1419802 - 04/19/10 03:17 AM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: wouter79]
David-G Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/17/06
Posts: 1227
Loc: London
"The dealer proposed to return my money and take back the piano if I insist, as he thinks we will get into a stalemate."

You should have accepted this offer immediately, and then there would have been no need for a second opinion. Do you have confidence in the person who is going to give the second opinion?

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